Campag BB bearings Ceramic vs Steel

drlodge

I've had some issues with the longevity of Campagnolo steel BB bearings and wonder what the experience of other people are. They seem to last about 500 miles until they start creaking/clicking. Here's what's happened:
- original CULT bearings on the Rourke started creaking around the 8000 mile mark. Fair enough! The ceramics were £90 (gulp) so I replaced them with the £22 steel bearings I assume are used with the Chorus groupset. After about 500 miles the right hand bearing started creaking badly so I replaced it (just the one bearing) with a ceramic from Aire Bearings at a vastly reduced price. Now there is more creaking and I think the left hand steel bearing is going the same way.
- Built up the Massive Attack with Chorus EPS, the crank uses the steel bearings. After 500 miles these crank bearings are creaking badly too.

The ceramic bearings are not immune from clicking, they sometimes start to make a bit of noise but then the noise goes away. I assume this is from dirt temporarily getting into the bearings.

Any one had similar experiences? The steel bearings on the Condor which are Shimano/Ultegra £20 cups/bearings have been faultless.

ugo.santalucia

My experience is very similar.

The first set of bearings on the UT cranks (standard) lasted a fair amount of miles, in the thousands, while the replacement (original campagnolo standard) lasted less than half... I tried some hybrid ceramics from Ebay, which lasted very little.

Personally, I think UT is a shit system... it uses the same bearings as Hollowtech 2 but with less protection and a lot more hassle to replace them. I got rid of the all Campagnolo crap and got myself a Hollowtech system, which so far, touch wood, has been flawless.
It would have been easy for Campagnolo to use the standard 37 x 25 x 7 size (6805 RS), which is a tested one, but no, they had to make it special, save 10 grams and go for a custom 37 x 25 x 6, which is shit (as above)

964cup

drlodge wrote:

I've had some issues with the longevity of Campagnolo steel BB bearings and wonder what the experience of other people are. They seem to last about 500 miles until they start creaking/clicking. Here's what's happened:
- original CULT bearings on the Rourke started creaking around the 8000 mile mark. Fair enough! The ceramics were £90 (gulp) so I replaced them with the £22 steel bearings I assume are used with the Chorus groupset. After about 500 miles the right hand bearing started creaking badly so I replaced it (just the one bearing) with a ceramic from Aire Bearings at a vastly reduced price. Now there is more creaking and I think the left hand steel bearing is going the same way.
- Built up the Massive Attack with Chorus EPS, the crank uses the steel bearings. After 500 miles these crank bearings are creaking badly too.

Did you change the cups when you changed from ceramic to steel? If not, there's you're problem. The SR cups are for ceramic only and will bork your steel bearings in short order.

I've one bike on CULT and one on steel, both UT. No problems on either with about 3,000km on each, and the CULT gets ridden in all weathers. I do keep my bikes clean, and take a lot of care in assembly, but I'm sure you do too.

drlodge

964Cup wrote:

Did you change the cups when you changed from ceramic to steel? If not, there's you're problem. The SR cups are for ceramic only and will bork your steel bearings in short order.

How are the cups different, since the bearings are the same size? It also wouldn't explain why the Chorus UT bearings on the MA have started creaking after 500 miles though.

What about moving from standard to hybrid-ceramics using the (gold?) coloured cups? These are what I'm using/moving to (6805N-2RS-HC (25 x 37 x 6)) http://www.airebearings.co.uk/Bike-bear ... tle=Hybrid ceramic bearings

cmcdonnell

My go I've never had a BB that's lasted less than 6000 to 8000 miles. Fitted a SR UT crankset last summer on my best bike and it's done about 1500 mostly dry miles and maybe the same on the turbo over the winter and is good as new. I'd expect it to last a few years yet. My last UT was a chorus BSA unit fitted in 2007 and it still seems fine.

cmcdonnell

Also on another bike I had a FSA MegaEXO ceramic that lasted 6 summers and winters. Changed it last spring to the much cheaper non ceramic version and I'm not convinced it will last another winter and is definitely not as smooth. Although the ceramic version cost 6 times as much, if I keep that Chainset I'll fit another ceramic one

joe2008

drlodge wrote:

964Cup wrote:

Did you change the cups when you changed from ceramic to steel? If not, there's you're problem. The SR cups are for ceramic only and will bork your steel bearings in short order.

How are the cups different, since the bearings are the same size? It also wouldn't explain why the Chorus UT bearings on the MA have started creaking after 500 miles though.

There's no outer seal in the Super Record cups.

drlodge

joe2008 wrote:

drlodge wrote:

964Cup wrote:

Did you change the cups when you changed from ceramic to steel? If not, there's you're problem. The SR cups are for ceramic only and will bork your steel bearings in short order.

How are the cups different, since the bearings are the same size? It also wouldn't explain why the Chorus UT bearings on the MA have started creaking after 500 miles though.

There's no outer seal in the Super Record cups.

There's no seal in either of the cups, the seal is on the crank.

joe2008

drlodge wrote:

joe2008 wrote:

drlodge wrote:

964Cup wrote:

Did you change the cups when you changed from ceramic to steel? If not, there's you're problem. The SR cups are for ceramic only and will bork your steel bearings in short order.

How are the cups different, since the bearings are the same size? It also wouldn't explain why the Chorus UT bearings on the MA have started creaking after 500 miles though.

There's no outer seal in the Super Record cups.

There's no seal in either of the cups, the seal is on the crank.

Not true, there is also an outer seal in the cups, which is not in the Super Record cup. The outer seals are available as a spare part, and you can fit them to the SR cups as the groove is there.

Seals on a Record cup... "Campagnolo Ultra-Torque BB cups. For use with Ultra-Torque split spindle cranksets only.....Contain seals and grease lubricated"

https://www.worldwidecyclery.com/collec ... ps-english

But not on a Super Record cup... "Campagnolo Super Record Bottom Brackets....Cups do not have seals and are lubricated with oil"

https://www.worldwidecyclery.com/collec ... ps-english

cycleclinic

I have the super record RS chainset and the cult bearings and they are faultless. 6000 all weather miles and nothing but smoothness. I hope for another 6000 miles.

As for the steel bearings they should last longer than 500 miles. Customers who come in with shot U-T steel bearings after not a huge number of miles generally have ridden through some real crap. Hollowtech BB's (ultegra) last me 3000 miles at the most.

I assume Drlodge that the shell is within specification if it is threaded. What BB system do you have to have as Campag's pressfit cups are not the best. Praxis works do some lovely pressfit options and so do wheels manufacturing for BB30 and PF30 that cure all manor of ills.

Not sure what happen if you try to use cult bearings in record cups. I suspect though this is not the reason though.
Have you both seals fitted when uses the steel bearings. If not then this is a likely cause. also what frame? are there BB cut outs. If not water could be getting trapped in the BB area and wrecking the bearings. for one customer with BB30 we drilled a drain in his cannondale to allow his bearings to last more than a few rides. It worked that and the wheels manufacturing bearings.

Need to know more to advise.

drlodge

thecycleclinic wrote:

I have the super record RS chainset and the cult bearings and they are faultless. 6000 all weather miles and nothing but smoothness. I hope for another 6000 miles.

As for the steel bearings they should last longer than 500 miles. Customers who come in with shot bearing after not a huge number of miles generally have ridden through some real crap. Hollowtech BB's (ultegra) last me 3000 miles at the most.

I assume Drlodge that the shell is within specification if it is threaded. What BB system do you have to have as Campag's pressfit cups are not the best. Praxis works do some lovely pressfit options and so do wheels manufacturing for BB30 and PF30 that cure all manor of ills.

Not sure what happen if you try to use cult bearings in record cups. I suspect though this is not the reason though.
Have you both seals fitted when uses the steel bearings. If not then this is a likely cause. also what frame? are there BB cut outs. If not water could be getting trapped in the BB area and wrecking the bearings. for one customer with BB30 we drilled a drain in his cannondale to allow his bearings to last more than a few rides. It worked that and the wheels manufacturing bearings.

Need to know more to advise.

Its not the bearings, I reinstalled the UT crank using the same bearings but greased the outer bearing and inside of the cup with LB-100 and its perfect now. Hence the noise must be coming from some movement between the bearing and the cup. I now need to wait to see how long this installation will last...

joe2008

thecycleclinic wrote:

As for the steel bearings they should last longer than 500 miles.

Not if you run them in Super Record cups in the rain, In found this out the 'hard' way

cycleclinic

I presume the cups are installed to the correct torque, had that cause a creak before and the shell is the correct width (within tollerance) as that can cause creaks too.

drlodge

thecycleclinic wrote:

I presume the cups are installed to the correct torque, had that cause a creak before and the shell is the correct width (within tollerance) as that can cause creaks too.

I would assume so, I don't have a torque wrench capable of fixing to the cups but they are nice and tight and have the campag loctite on. I made a full description here viewtopic.php?f=40004&t=13062389&start=29

All I did was disassemble and reassemble, and everything is fixed, at least for the time being. So it has to be something in the bearing/cup interface I would think.

cycleclinic

checked today record and super record cups are interchangeable.

I would torque the cups up to 35Nm I don't think loctite always works and check the shell width is in spec. If it is out for example to narrow a second wavy washer maybe needed. Again without seeing the bike I am simply guessing at possible causes.

drlodge

Thanks Malcolm. I took the UT BB apart on the Rourke yesterday since that was creaking a bit too. Didn't replace the bearings (they're fairly new hybrid ceramics), just cleaned everything and regreased the bearings/cups with LB-100. On a short spin the creaking has gone, which would support my view that its the bearing/cup interface that's causing the noise.

ugo.santalucia

drlodge wrote:

Thanks Malcolm. I took the UT BB apart on the Rourke yesterday since that was creaking a bit too.

Shi-ma-no

drlodge

ugo.santalucia wrote:

drlodge wrote:

Thanks Malcolm. I took the UT BB apart on the Rourke yesterday since that was creaking a bit too.

Shi-ma-no

Well...yes you might have a point. Both the Condor (Shimano) and Boardman (SRAM) are fine despite being my wet & dirty bikes.

ugo.santalucia

I fail to understand the point of UT and PT. Basically you shift the "creaking points" from bearing-to-axle to bearing-to-cup, which in my books doesn't change a thing... you still have the possibility of play and creaking. In return, you get a unit which requires special tools and it's more fiddly to install.
Shimano gives you a system where for 15 quid you get cups and bearings integrated... you screw them on and happy days. To add insult to injury, Shimano integrated system costs less than Campagnolo bearings only... I really really fail to see how one would want to get Ultra Torque, other than misguided brand loyalty...

Oh, wait a minute, there is the Q factor, so I have to move the cleats, as otherwise I kick the chainstay every time I pedal, de facto taking away any alleged advantage of said Q factor

drlodge

I can't argue with that Ugo. I see the UT setup as fundamentally flawed for the reasons I've stated in some post and you describe above. If I were designing a crank system, I would have the creak point between bearing and crank (not cup) and have a pre-load setup just like on my Ultegra crank. The CULT bearings are about £90 a pair, ridiculous! Aire bearings do them for £12 a pop, but as I've found, its not the bearings that's the problem!!

ugo.santalucia

drlodge wrote:

I can't argue with that Ugo. I see the UT setup as fundamentally flawed for the reasons I've stated in some post and you describe above. If I were designing a crank system, I would have the creak point between bearing and crank (not cup) and have a pre-load setup just like on my Ultegra crank. The CULT bearings are about £90 a pair, ridiculous! Aire bearings do them for £12 a pop, but as I've found, its not the bearings that's the problem!!

I think the main step back is that Campagnolo previously were already using a cartridge BB system, which you screw on and forget about it, until it's time to unscrew and throw away. The all bearing-on-crank system takes you back to when you had to physically change ball bearings inside the BB... even there after the first set, the system would never work like new and would have play or grind... so that's a step back of 20 years

rolf_f

drlodge wrote:

Aire bearings do them for £12 a pop, but as I've found, its not the bearings that's the problem!!

Well that's an interesting tip off. I'd given up trying to find after market BB bearings and here you are telling me that a shop I cycle past on one of my commute routes does them!

Is that price for ceramic or steel?

drlodge

Rolf F wrote:

drlodge wrote:

Aire bearings do them for £12 a pop, but as I've found, its not the bearings that's the problem!!

Well that's an interesting tip off. I'd given up trying to find after market BB bearings and here you are telling me that a shop I cycle past on one of my commute routes does them!

Is that price for ceramic or steel?

Hybrid ceramic http://www.airevelobearings.com/product ... c+bearings

rolf_f

Taa very much for that!

..>Rolf

on-yer-bike

Im not sure why i run three UT and one PT chainset and dont have any noises or abnormal wear issues.
I must be doing something wrong.
Ive never had to change a bearing and all the Record UT are 2009/10 first generation 11 speed. Ive had to change one chain ring on the most used chainset.

drlodge

on-yer-bike wrote:

Im not sure why i run three UT and one PT chainset and dont have any noises or abnormal wear issues.
I must be doing something wrong.
Ive never had to change a bearing and all the Record UT are 2009/10 first generation 11 speed. Ive had to change one chain ring on the most used chainset.

Might be due to the grease used when installing it. My original bearings in the Rourke lasted 7000 or so miles before I replaced them, but it was probably the bearings moving against the cups making the noise rather than the bearings being shot in hindsight.

The bearings/cups want a really sticky grease that won't displace, or possibly the bearing-retaining sort of Loctite.