[Video] Canyon Sender (suspension motion & analysis)

AndreXTR
AndreXTR Posts: 64
edited April 2016 in MTB general
Hello guys :D

Just want to share my analysis to the new Canyon Sender suspension system with the new MX-link :)

0.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7MEskfGjvE


Hoje you like it.

Bye
«1

Comments

  • supersonic
    supersonic Posts: 82,708
    I enjoyed this, a very good analysis of the bike. Their claims are interesting regarding the shock - specifically 'tuned' for an air shock they claim (high leverage start, lowering for the mid stroke, high at the end) but the the graphs seem to show it a bit differently.

    Don't forget axle thrust forces for anti squat ;-)
  • Herdwick
    Herdwick Posts: 523
    To many linkages and acronyms=one of the same
    “I am a humanist, which means, in part, that I have tried to behave decently without expectations of rewards or punishments after I am dead.”
    ― Kurt Vonnegut
  • AndreXTR
    AndreXTR Posts: 64
    It's normal that claims are always a bit exaggerated. You must turn your product into a "cool" thing and create fancy names. But Canyon actually uses a quite "OK" marketing strategy. It's not a misleading marketing such as Giant or Trek for instance.

    Anyway, the curve of force of Sender and YT Tues are very similar, the main difference is that Tues ramp-ups a bit more at the final quarter of travel (more progressive). And my Specialized BigHit 2010 has an almost superimposed curve. So I guess that even my "shitty" Big Hit has a Triple Phase Suspension system... Cool ! :lol:

    Bye
  • rockmonkeysc
    rockmonkeysc Posts: 14,774
    So the suspension will feel like an old Big Hit?
  • AndreXTR
    AndreXTR Posts: 64
    So the suspension will feel like an old Big Hit?

    8622287.jpg

    :lol:
  • Herdwick
    Herdwick Posts: 523
    If use the same shock and all others being equall then, most likely yes
    “I am a humanist, which means, in part, that I have tried to behave decently without expectations of rewards or punishments after I am dead.”
    ― Kurt Vonnegut
  • rockmonkeysc
    rockmonkeysc Posts: 14,774
    That's not good. Except it won't feel like a big hit due to having a load more travel and a different axle path.
    It'll certainly feel a lot better than the old torque which was the worst modern downhill bike I have ridden.

    How do you get the exact suspension geometry to be able to calculate the rate curves?
  • Herdwick
    Herdwick Posts: 523
    How much difference will make a few mm fore aft movement of the rear axle, don't think will have more than 10mm axle path difference in any given point in the travel, insgnificant I would say, more travel is the main difference
    “I am a humanist, which means, in part, that I have tried to behave decently without expectations of rewards or punishments after I am dead.”
    ― Kurt Vonnegut
  • AndreXTR
    AndreXTR Posts: 64
    The Big Hit example was just to show that the leverage ratio profile of Sender is quite common. Which is not a bad thing... of course the other parameters are different from the BigHit....

    To build the model, I used the technical drawings shown at the begging of the video and the geometry data released by canyon. The model is quite accurate, and the resultant shock length & stroke matched perfectly (240 x 76mm shock). The model is now available to everyone at the linkage software database. Bye
  • AndreXTR
    AndreXTR Posts: 64
    I found this leverage ratio curve provided by Canyon. It doesn't show the units (don't understand why...), but, without surprise, the profile is the same as the one obtained on the simulation. :)

    http://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/stories/20 ... _62404.jpg
  • rockmonkeysc
    rockmonkeysc Posts: 14,774
    Herdwick wrote:
    How much difference will make a few mm fore aft movement of the rear axle, don't think will have more than 10mm axle path difference in any given point in the travel, insgnificant I would say, more travel is the main difference

    Axle path makes a big difference. It's what makes bikes like the Mondraker Summum and Specialized Demo so fast. A forward axle path will loose more speed over square edge hits and big rocks and roots.
    My Nukeproof Scalp is single pivot so has a forward axle path, going in to a rock garden behind my mate on his Mondraker Summum at the same speed he just f**ks off because I loose so much more speed.
  • rockmonkeysc
    rockmonkeysc Posts: 14,774
    I can't believe Canyon would release enough info to be able to model the linkage accurately before the bike is released for sale. Makes no sense to me.
    The graph in the vital link gives no figures, just a vague shape which shows it is progressive but without figures the information it gives is extremely limited.
    I design suspension components for cars and can't get geometry details from any manufacturer I'm working for, even for current models.
  • AndreXTR
    AndreXTR Posts: 64
    I have no reasons to believe that the model is not very accurate. I'm not expecting big deviations. In fact, I did an analysis to Canyon Strive a couple weeks ago, using a slightly less accurate method, and the simulation data matched perfectly with Canyon's

    (min 02:22)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJhXehvEhvQ

    The same for Dartmoor Wish (min 2:10)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCy6_9oqHzY

    So, as I said in the disclaimer on the videos, the simulation data is not 100% accurate, but it's a very close approximation to the real data. Considering that manufactures don't share this data, this is the best you can get. :)

    Bye
  • AndreXTR
    AndreXTR Posts: 64
    The funny thing is that Demo 2015 is one of the downhill bikes with the most FORWARD axle paths.... :lol:

    p4pb13278670.jpg

    p4pb13278680.jpg
  • supersonic
    supersonic Posts: 82,708
    Dave Weagle is critical of Linkage - a mm or two out on your pivot locations and you can be markedly out with your axle paths and leverage. It's a great utility, but only as good as the data it gets.

    I agree with axle paths, 10mm difference is large in these terms, could not only have an effect on bump response as RM points out, but will alter the ICs and therefore anti squat/anti rise/pedal kickback in different parts of the travel.

    And yep, the Demo has a noticably forward curved axle path in the latter part of the travel - something like -100% anti squat in a 36/18!
  • AndreXTR
    AndreXTR Posts: 64
    supersonic wrote:
    Dave Weagle is critical of Linkage - a mm or two out on your pivot locations and you can be markedly out with your axle paths and leverage.

    Yes, I also saw a comments of DW criticizing linkage. The software is very precise the problem is the errors on model construction. And he is right when you are modeling a bike with very small links using a side-view photo with distortion. That can give significative errors on leverage curves. But with schematic drawings, or a hi-res photos in bikes with large links, you can get a very accurate data close to data provided by the manufacturers (as I showed in the above videos). So, overall, it's a great tool.

    Yes, Demo has negative anti-squats on smaller rear cogs....... Extra-pedal bob :D
  • Herdwick
    Herdwick Posts: 523
    so demo is fast. does it has forward axle path or not?
    RMSC, what you state about forward axle path is true, it robs energy and hangs on square edges but truth is everybody has it.
    The only way to get a rearward axle path is with a really high pivot point and the consequenses that follows with it,
    the rest systems single pivot/fsr or whatever they like to call it, it gives forward axle path at some point in the travel no matter what you do, you can choose where you want to put it but can't eliminate it, the rear axle ALWAYS travels in an arc, so moving forward is inevitable
    “I am a humanist, which means, in part, that I have tried to behave decently without expectations of rewards or punishments after I am dead.”
    ― Kurt Vonnegut
  • Herdwick
    Herdwick Posts: 523
    supersonic wrote:
    I agree with axle paths, 10mm difference is large in these terms, could not only have an effect on bump response as RM points out, but will alter the ICs and therefore anti squat/anti rise/pedal kickback in different parts of the travel.

    The IC/antisquat/anti rise etc are more sensitive in weight transfer, not so with axle path.
    Fore aft movement on the bike and height of your body mass in relation with the bike hugely affect Ic, it will wander all over in the minor body position movevent, you don't ride fixed in one position, do you?
    The readings and calculations you get are useless as you only get an idea while the bike is in a stable state, something is not true when going downhill neither when climbing.
    Have a read here

    http://bicyclingclassifieds.com.au/2013 ... -marketing
    “I am a humanist, which means, in part, that I have tried to behave decently without expectations of rewards or punishments after I am dead.”
    ― Kurt Vonnegut
  • Herdwick
    Herdwick Posts: 523
    “I am a humanist, which means, in part, that I have tried to behave decently without expectations of rewards or punishments after I am dead.”
    ― Kurt Vonnegut
  • supersonic
    supersonic Posts: 82,708
    This does not mean that the suspension layout does not make a difference and cannot be felt by the rider. It is personal preference, and I agree with the comments marketing BS we see, but there are some markedly different feeling FS bikes out there - some that some people are going to prefer to others, of course. Nor does it mean the values are useless in linkage are useless, some useful information can be got - if the reader/creator knows how to interpret it. The notion that 'just ride it, you'll get used it, they are all roughly the same, you moving about is the biggest variation' I mostly disagree with. Some bikes may have too much pedal kickback for the rider, some may seem to pedal more efficiently than others and suit their long xc rides in the saddle and braking characteristics can be markedly different. However a lot of bikes do fall into a small envelope. 10mm difference though of horizontal axle displacement? That could ring some big changes, as I pointed out earlier. And, of course, you can have practically the same axle path and different braking characteristics.
  • rockmonkeysc
    rockmonkeysc Posts: 14,774
    I've ridden some very different feeling downhill bikes. Orange don't pedal and kick back badly. Trek I just don't like, feels wallowey. Canyon just feel old fashioned. Devinci Wilson just feels like it builds speed at an incredible rate.
    No amount of numbers or graphs show how a bike actually feels to ride and they're all very different.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,415
    Just waiting for a real world review of this bike vs the YT Tues and maybe the Rose Unchained. Battle of the German mail orders.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rockmonkeysc
    rockmonkeysc Posts: 14,774
    Why just the Germans? They need to be as good as the rest. The Devinci Wilson is in the same price range, so is the Nukeproof Pulse and Solid Strike. The Basic model Giant Glory is competitive as well.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,415
    Mail order comparison? All great vfm.

    Good call to mention the Solid Strike.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rockmonkeysc
    rockmonkeysc Posts: 14,774
    If you get a chance to ride the Strike, don't! You'll want one!
  • rockmonkeysc
    rockmonkeysc Posts: 14,774
    I forgot about Propain. That's another one to consider as my next bike.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,415
    If you get a chance to ride the Strike, don't! You'll want one!
    Does look quite tasty. Pretty slack - 62 deg HA and long - 1,250mm wheelbase.

    So you've ridden one? If so, more details!
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rockmonkeysc
    rockmonkeysc Posts: 14,774
    Only a quick one run on a mates. Obviously not set up right but it still felt like a proper good bike.
    He bought it to replace a 2014 Demo and he's definitely faster on the Strike and really likes it.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,415
    Only a quick one run on a mates. Obviously not set up right but it still felt like a proper good bike.
    He bought it to replace a 2014 Demo and he's definitely faster on the Strike and really likes it.
    Ta - useful to know. The reality is its one in one out on the bike front for me, so will have to wait for a while.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]