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Fitting 5800 calipers

SMESME Posts: 348
edited March 2016 in Workshop
My Trek came with un-branded calipers, so I'm upgrading to the 5800 one's to match the rest of the groupset... and, of course, hope to benefit from the better performance!

A few questions...

1) The outer cable ends have the little sleeves on them (don't know the technical name), but they won't slip into the cable adjuster on the caliper - can these be left off?

2) Can someone tell me why the blocks are adjusted toe-in - surely as the block wears it flattens off anyway?

3) I've heard Shimano blocks are harsh on ally rims - should I change to KoolStop or SwissStop (recommendations welcome)?

Thanks in advance,
Steve

Posts

  • arlowoodarlowood Posts: 2,500
    I think the "little sleeves" you refer to are the crimped terminals that are there to prevent the cable ends fraying,

    Like these things

    4757_gear_inner_wire_caps_1_2_mm_pack_of_6_.jpg

    You have to cut these off with some good quality cable cutters before you can remove the cable from the existing calipers. Once you have threaded the cable into your now 5800 calipers it is advisable to fit some new terminal sleeves but not essential.

    They're cheap enough to buy

    https://www.merlincycles.com/gear-inner ... AgKy8P8HAQ

    or just pop to your LBS and they may give you a couple free gratis.
  • SMESME Posts: 348
    Cheers Arlowood, but not the crimps.. I mean the sleeves over the spiraled cable outer.

    Is it OK to omit theses? Blocks toe in? And best blocks?

    Any help appreciated... Thanks
  • keef66keef66 Posts: 13,123
    On the other hand I think you're referring to the ferrules on the cable outers. Yes, leave them off. Shimano calipers are designed to take the outer as it is.

    Toe in is something I've never bothered with but which others insist on. You do as you like. 5800 calipers are pretty chunky and stiff things; I doubt you'd need to set them up toe in to avoid squealing or juddering.

    Again, I'm on stock Shimano inserts / blocks on 2 bikes, have pretty effective braking and have yet to wear out a rim. However I'm only 63kg, it isn't exactly mountainous round here, and 99% of my riding is on quiet country roads and I rarely have to brake anyway. YMMV as they say. SwissStop blue / KoolStop salmon seem to be commonly recommended by the alloy rim preservation society...
  • ayjayceeayjaycee Posts: 1,277
    With apologies to Arlowood for contradicting him, before cutting the cable, check that you cannot remove the whole clamp section from your existing calipers by completely undoing the screw and removing it and the small 'plate'. I would be very surprised if you cannot and that can certainly be done with the 5800 calipers. Note when / if you do take it off that there is a small slot that the cable goes through. It would save having to cut the cable and replacing the cable end and the cable can also be a pain to cut neatly if you have not got some decent cable cutters.

    Block are usually toed in to increase modulation and also to reduce any squealing noises when braking (if, indeed, that is an issue).

    There are endless threads on BR taking about the merits, or otherwise, of Shimano pads and their alternatives - just do a search. My personal experience is that higher-end shimano pads are OK but my preference is for Swisstop BXP Pro (the blue ones). They work very well and seem to be reasonably long lasting. I am firmly of the belief that pads are an area where one should never, ever skimp and that even an extra few mm stopping distance would be worth every penny in the event that you needed it .

    Having said that, somebody will be along in a minute to tell me that I'm wrong.
    Cannondale Synapse Carbon Ultegra
    Kinesis Racelight 4S
    Specialized Allez Elite (Frame/Forks for sale)
    Specialized Crosstrail Comp Disk (For sale)
  • keef66keef66 Posts: 13,123
    I usually find the cable end crimps just pull off, so you're not shortening the inner cable by cutting. You can generally stick a new one on there after you've finished fettling to stop the end fraying / stabbing your fingers.
  • ayjayceeayjaycee Posts: 1,277
    Sorry, just seen that there were two other posts whilst I was typing mine! Arlo is spot on about the ferrules - you don't need them on the 5800s. Also if they are ferrules (ie. plastic sleeves) on the current brakes, you will have to cut the cable or, as Keef says, just pull the ends off.
    Cannondale Synapse Carbon Ultegra
    Kinesis Racelight 4S
    Specialized Allez Elite (Frame/Forks for sale)
    Specialized Crosstrail Comp Disk (For sale)
  • SMESME Posts: 348
    edited March 2016
    Thanks for the replies.

    Yes... Ferrules was the term.

    Changed the calipers now - thanks all. I managed to squeeze and twist the old crimps off, along with the ferrules. I could undo the cable clamp to remove the cable but it still wouldn't have gone through the cable adjuster with the crimp on.

    I haven't bothered with toe-in. I have, on occasion, had squealing brakes but that usually signifies to me the rims and blocks need a good clean (provided they were quite in the first place, of course).

    Having a look around it seems that Shimano have 'upped their game' (inc Ajay's remarks) regarding higher end brake blocks, so I'll see how they perform for now, and then maybe try Salmon's or Blue BXP's if I feel the need.

    Many thanks again,
    Steve
  • grenwgrenw Posts: 788
    A couple of thoughts from my recent experiences....

    Replaced my non-series Shimano brakes with Ultegra 6800s on standard pads (not toed in) and things improved measurably. No squeaking. Seemed to modulate fine. I did screw up the cables though by pulling off the crimps and the inner started sticking in the outer as it had frayed when pushing it into the caliper. Ended up having to re-cable.

    Replaced the standard (worn) pads on my wife's 5800 brakes to Swissstop blues and she says the braking is much better.

    Personally, I'm going to wait until my pads wear out but I'll certainly be giving the blues a try after that.
  • keef66keef66 Posts: 13,123
    I've been waiting for over 8 years to wear out my first lot of Shimano brake blocks! On both bikes they are the all in one moulded jobs that came with the calipers (Tiagra and BR450). If I ever do wear them out I want to upgrade to the metal cartridge type holders with some SwissStop blue inserts. Annoyingly the best way to buy the cartridge holders seems to be with new Shimano inserts :roll:
  • ayjayceeayjaycee Posts: 1,277
    As far as I can recall, you have got to go up to Ultegra calipers before you get the cartridges with Shimano (the Ultegras on my Synapse have but the 105's on my Allez did not). That's a pity as it increases the price to change if you do want to try, say, Swisstops but it is a one off expense and after that you just buy pads. Saying that, Keef has a good point that given the long life of pads, they are pretty cheap really.
    Cannondale Synapse Carbon Ultegra
    Kinesis Racelight 4S
    Specialized Allez Elite (Frame/Forks for sale)
    Specialized Crosstrail Comp Disk (For sale)
  • ayjayceeayjaycee Posts: 1,277
    ayjaycee wrote:
    As far as I can recall, you have got to go up to Ultegra calipers before you get the cartridges with Shimano (the Ultegras on my Synapse have but the 105's on my Allez did not). That's a pity as it increases the price to change if you do want to try, say, Swisstops but it is a one off expense and after that you just buy pads. Saying that, Keef has a good point that given the long life of pads, they are pretty cheap really.

    Correction - I just had to go into the shed and happened to look down and noticed that the 105 5800 calipers on my Allez have got OEM cartridges on them (I must have known that and forgot as I have changed the pads to Swisstops!). Sorry for the bum steer earlier.
    Cannondale Synapse Carbon Ultegra
    Kinesis Racelight 4S
    Specialized Allez Elite (Frame/Forks for sale)
    Specialized Crosstrail Comp Disk (For sale)
  • SMESME Posts: 348
    Took a ride out today, and thought I'd be thrown over the handlebars! If Salmon's or Blue BXP's are better I'll just stick to the standard Shimano blocks for now! When I was told (or read about) 5800 calipers being a little more powerful, well as Jamie Lawson sung, I wasn't Expecting That!
  • SemantikSemantik Posts: 537
    SME wrote:
    Took a ride out today, and thought I'd be thrown over the handlebars! If Salmon's or Blue BXP's are better I'll just stick to the standard Shimano blocks for now! When I was told (or read about) 5800 calipers being a little more powerful, well as Jamie Lawson sung, I wasn't Expecting That!

    just upgraded to 5800 from ultegra 6600 and the new 105 is 2 steps forward -the braking is noticeably more impressive despite my 6600 calipers having bxp pads
  • SMESME Posts: 348
    Semantik wrote:
    just upgraded to 5800 from ultegra 6600 and the new 105 is 2 steps forward -the braking is noticeably more impressive despite my 6600 calipers having bxp pads

    Yep, I was impressed too. Seems like I made a worthwhile upgrade.
  • Frank poleFrank pole Posts: 112
    I too upgraded one of my bikes to 5800 calipers and they work so much better than 5700 that I had on another bike!
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