‘Not a Warranty Issue’ - Am I being had on?

KingG

Hello everyone - novice here asking for some advice.

I wanted to get some views on a major breakage that happened recently on my lovely Specialized Secteur. I was on a very gentle incline and suddenly heard an almighty crack and my wheels jammed. Fortunately I was going very slowly so I wasn’t thrown off the bike.

But it now has this:

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B6mJmWoovN69MkRnSzRxdnMyek0&usp=sharing

On taking it to a Specialized shop to claim on the warranty the staff were all quite surprised and said they had never seen anything like it before (?!). They said that they would take some pictures to send to head office. Off the record they told me I would quite likely get a replacement as clearly there was a fault for this to have happened.

A week later I get a call from Specialized claiming that because the frame is bent next to where it snapped they think the rear cassette probably came loose and then jammed causing the frame to bend and snap and therefore not a warranty issue.

The bike is only 3 years old (purchased Feb 2013) and I had just had it serviced the week before so I am gutted this is the outcome but I wanted to know what people here thought? Surely even if it’s not a warranty issue 3 years is a bit rubbish for a £600 bike?

The guys who serviced the bike (local indie bike shop) reckon I am being had on and say the frame snapped first. So what I want to know: Is this worth pushing back with Specialized or should I just accept this as bad luck?

PS I was offered a crash replacement frame but with labour costs it was more than buying a new bike!

Any input welcome

cookeeemonster

KingG wrote:

Hello everyone - novice here asking for some advice.

I wanted to get some views on a major breakage that happened recently on my lovely Specialized Secteur. I was on a very gentle incline and suddenly heard an almighty crack and my wheels jammed. Fortunately I was going very slowly so I wasn’t thrown off the bike.

But it now has this:

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B6mJmWoovN69MkRnSzRxdnMyek0&usp=sharing

On taking it to a Specialized shop to claim on the warranty the staff were all quite surprised and said they had never seen anything like it before (?!). They said that they would take some pictures to send to head office. Off the record they told me I would quite likely get a replacement as clearly there was a fault for this to have happened.

A week later I get a call from Specialized claiming that because the frame is bent next to where it snapped they think the rear cassette probably came loose and then jammed causing the frame to bend and snap and therefore not a warranty issue.

The bike is only 3 years old (purchased Feb 2013) and I had just had it serviced the week before so I am gutted this is the outcome but I wanted to know what people here thought? Surely even if it’s not a warranty issue 3 years is a bit rubbish for a £600 bike?

The guys who serviced the bike (local indie bike shop) reckon I am being had on and say the frame snapped first. So what I want to know: Is this worth pushing back with Specialized or should I just accept this as bad luck?

PS I was offered a crash replacement frame but with labour costs it was more than buying a new bike!

Any input welcome

Seriously?? How much were they charging for labour!?! Can you get the frame and then take it to your lbs?

Regardless of what people say on here I'd push back anyway, you got nothing to lose. They've already offered a replacement frame so maybe you can get them to drop or reduce the labour charge?

hdow

Its not a warranty issue but it comes under the Sale of Goods Act (the shop where you bought could be liable) and Product Liability (the shop where you bought it and/or the importer/manufacturer could both be liable) legislation. Google both & you should find further details. Offer them the smalls claims court but forget warranty claims completely and talk about Sale of Goods Act (merchantable quality?) and Product Liability instead. Warranties try to imply you have less rights than you actually have.

iPete

Can you accept the crash replacement frame and walk away from Specialized?

fenix

What did your guy do in the service ? Anything to do with the rear mech ? Just odd that it breaks so close to the service ?

(although I cant think why the rear mech snapped like that ?)

Did you get anything caught in it ?

DavidJB

Knew before I clicked the thread the OP would have a post count of 1

Guernsey Donkey

The most likely scenario is a rear mech incorrectly adjusted at last service (or played with since). Shifting to a lower gear to go up the hill and the mech catches the spokes. The wheel carries the mech around breaking the mech and the mech then continues around and takes out the seat stay.

This is not a warranty issue. It is a maintenance issue. The problem is proving where but given the state of the bike in general it doesn't look 'beloved' to me.

buckmulligan

Guernsey Donkey wrote:

The most likely scenario is a rear mech incorrectly adjusted at last service (or played with since). Shifting to a lower gear to go up the hill and the mech catches the spokes. The wheel carries the mech around breaking the mech and the mech then continues around and takes out the seat stay.

This is not a warranty issue. It is a maintenance issue. The problem is proving where but given the state of the bike in general it doesn't look 'beloved' to me.

This.

It's not a frame warranty issue and I'm surprised that the guys in the Specialized shop didn't spot it a mile off, it happens all the time with poorly adjusted rear mechs. I'd be having a word with the guys that did your service because they're likely the ones responsible for this unless you fiddled with it afterwards.

fenix

It can be repaired - Ask Rob Hayles - @Re_carb

KingG

Hi everyone.

Firstly thank you all for taking the time to reply to me even though I’m a bit of a forum lurker.

I’ll ask the LBS if they fiddled with the rear mech – the service saw me having new tyres, a new wheel, 2 new break discs and new breakwires so probably (I guess?) I certainly have not touched the rear derailleur.

How likely is this to be my fault/bad luck? They’re great guys in there and I wouldn’t really want to come in making accusations.

Anyway hugely appreciate the input everyone.

keef66

Have you fallen off / dropped the bike on the drive side? Any chance the rear mech has had a knock that could have bent the mech hanger?

I've bent them on both bikes in various ways, but thankfully each time noticed before I did any damage. Pretty close on one occasion; fell off, thought the bike was OK, then when I got to the first proper hill I heard the spine-chilling sound of the mech hitting the spokes as I attempted to select lower gears. Fortunately I recognised the sound, stopped pedalling and bailed out onto the verge.

Once it was so bent I just went online and bought a replacement hanger straight away. Couple of other occasions I've straightened them out

I have a proper hanger alignment tool now, which makes the whole thing a lot quicker, easier and more accurate. £15 well spent I think.

tmg

Did the cassette come lose, I assume you have checked that? Did you ask Spesh why they believe it to be that and not a fault in the frame? What evidence points them to believe it was something else? From looking at the pics it looks more like an impact caused the frame to break

If it was a lose cassette that caused the damage what did the guys do when they serviced it? Did they have any need to take the cassette off the bike which may of led to it not being correctly torqued down? Have you spoken to them since the incident to let them know this has happened?

fenix

Jeez you've been ripped off if they put new brake discs on a rim braked bike ?

You say you were on a gentle incline - were you shifting gear into the lowest sprocket ? What chainring at the front ?

iPete

You'll never prove it, it could have been the shop who will very likely have adjusted it but it could also have been a rogue and vicious twig.

Again, if you're being offered a free frame (or is crash replacement a reduced price frame?) take up that offer.

CiB

KingG wrote:

PS I was offered a crash replacement frame but with labour costs it was more than buying a new bike!

Any input welcome

You mean labour costs for swapping everything from old frame to new? That's a Saturday afternoon listening to the football's worth of effort, and the best way possible to learn how to look after a bike instead of paying someone to fit new tyres and cables. That's probably your best way out of this - take the new frame, fit all the bits yourself.

Bobbinogs

CiB wrote:

KingG wrote:

PS I was offered a crash replacement frame but with labour costs it was more than buying a new bike!

Any input welcome

You mean labour costs for swapping everything from old frame to new? That's a Saturday afternoon listening to the football's worth of effort, and the best way possible to learn how to look after a bike instead of paying someone to fit new tyres and cables. That's probably your best way out of this - take the new frame, fit all the bits yourself.

I would urge caution over this approach. Bear in mind the OP used the service to change tyres which means that a) he wasn't aware of when a tyre is worn and/or b) couldn't do a simple tyre replace himself. If either/both are applicable, I think rebuilding a bike is a tad ambitious!

KingG

Hi everyone – I should have been clearer. Specialized shop offered a crash replacement Allez (Sectuer no longer in production) frame at a reduced price of £450. With a new rear mech and labour they estimated £700 to get me on the road. Also the spokes on my (2 day old ) wheel also got pretty bent so could be even more!

I also think I caused confusion when I said new break discs – I meant pads. :oops: I probably was shifting down gears when it happened and as for knocks I don’t remember anything but who knows.

I think I’m going to look at getting a replacement frame (2nd hand) and getting the rest of the bike fitted to it?

Maybe LBS will take pity on me and do me a good labour rate if I buy the mech off them or something.
Anyway thank you all for your advice. I admit I’m not very techy at this and do rely on services to make sure everything is in order (save for cleaning/lubing)

fenix

Yeah your spokes got bent when you put the rear mech into them. That was what broke the rear mech and that's why the frame broke in turn. So nothing to do with the frame at all. Either you or your Lbs. Whoever it was messing with the rear mech.

We got there eventually.

Monty Dog

Agree, the frame broke because the rear mech got caught in the spokes, wrapped itself around the cassette and was stopped by going any further by the seatstay - combination of badly adjusted gears / bent gear mech hanger and maybe ham-fisted shifting.

sloppyschleckonds

Buy some new pedals while your at it

Smithster

I think specialized are being very fair offering a frame when it's obviously not a warrantable issue. It's clear from the photos that the frame has collapsed from an external force, rather than failure or metal fatigue. Although my opinion doesn't count as others have already established that!

I'd take the frame like a shot, and build it up yourself. Bike maintenance really is a doddle and no dark art, and anyone with a modicum of common sense should handle it no problem. Loads of cycling on the box at the moment, cup of coffee and a few hours and away you go.

debeli

I'd go with the above.

The tools needed to assemble a modern bicycle are few and are not expensive.

Over and above a normal set of workshop tools, you might spend perhaps £100 or £150 on a really nice set and then you have them forever.

Youtube has clips of just about any job that might daunt you.

And.... as implied by others, once you've done up a nut or set a gearchange or tensioned a cable or trued a wheel, you will enjoy everything about the ride just a little bit more.

Take the frame, buy the tools and you will never look back.

KingG

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

Buy some new pedals while your at it

Sorry I have to ask - what's wrong with the pedals? There were not many in stock. I think clip ins may not be the best idea...

Before it happened I did hear a clanking noise and now I'm pretty sure it was the spokes rubbing on the mech as keef66 mentions but didn't know what it meant at the time. Lesson learnt! :roll:

Just to clarify Specialized are not offering me a free frame (and nor should they it would seem) - they offered £450 for an Allez frame which given I can buy a new Allez bike for less it's not something I am going to go for.

I think the current plan will be to get a 2nd hand frame and get another LBS to build it back up. I like the idea of becoming a bike building guru but I just don't have time but I will endeavour to get some more knowledge to prevent this sort of calamity from happening again. :oops:

apreading

just bear in mind that a different frame may not fit all of your parts.

andy9964

KingG wrote:

I get a call from Specialized claiming that because the frame is bent next to where it snapped they think the rear cassette probably came loose and then jammed causing the frame to bend and snap and therefore not a warranty issue.

KingG wrote:

the service saw me having new tyres, a new wheel, 2 new break discs and new breakwires so probably (I guess?) I certainly have not touched the rear derailleur.

It wasn't a rear wheel by any chance, was it?

CiB

Bobbinogs wrote:

I would urge caution over this approach. Bear in mind the OP used the service to change tyres which means that a) he wasn't aware of when a tyre is worn and/or b) couldn't do a simple tyre replace himself. If either/both are applicable, I think rebuilding a bike is a tad ambitious!

KingG wrote:

Maybe LBS will take pity on me and do me a good labour rate if I buy the mech off them or something.
Anyway thank you all for your advice. I admit I’m not very techy at this and do rely on services to make sure everything is in order (save for cleaning/lubing)

Probably best to have the LBS do it then, but as a serious question, how difficult to people think it is to build a bike? Assume the headset is in place - if not then paying for that might be considered worthwhile - but beyond that it's nothing more than screwing things into place.

Work your way up - BB in place, a simple tool for a tenner to tighten it up, and watch for the l/h thread (same for pedals). Wheels? QR usually. Brakes are a single bolt through a hole in the frame or forks and you cant get them wrong as the rear won't go through the front forks. Pads shouldn't be able to pop out of the open end. Chain rings are 5 easy bolts done up with a £3.99 torx drive. Chain - fingers for the quick link, maybe a chain split tool too - another fiver.

Saddle, bars, front mech, rear mech & STIs are all nipped up with a basic Allen Key set. Cables are just cables - you'll need suitable lube. Out of all that, the hardest bit is indexing the gears - go on Youtube for 5 mins and marvel at how easy it is. In reality though it's nothing more than bolting A to B and fixing cable C to clamp D. If you find yourself trying to fix the rear mech to the handlebars it might be time to admit defeat, but there can't be many people who ride a bike who are congenitally unable to comprehend fixing part A to surface B without destroying it or getting it upside down.

Once it's done, leave it overnight, go over it closely in the morning then ride it slowly round the block. Anything not quite right will soon show itself, but once it's done the bike stops being a mystery and becomes something you can tweak and adjust to your heart's content, knowing that you've done it right and got it exactly how you want it.

Or pay a shop to be allowed to wait for them to fix A to B and clamp C to D.

Semantik

KingG wrote:

Hi everyone – I should have been clearer. Specialized shop offered a crash replacement Allez (Sectuer no longer in production) frame at a reduced price of £450. With a new rear mech and labour they estimated £700 to get me on the road. Also the spokes on my (2 day old ) wheel also got pretty bent so could be even more!

I also think I caused confusion when I said new break discs – I meant pads. :oops: I probably was shifting down gears when it happened and as for knocks I don’t remember anything but who knows.

I think I’m going to look at getting a replacement frame (2nd hand) and getting the rest of the bike fitted to it?

Maybe LBS will take pity on me and do me a good labour rate if I buy the mech off them or something.
Anyway thank you all for your advice. I admit I’m not very techy at this and do rely on services to make sure everything is in order (save for cleaning/lubing)

What a pointless waste of time and money all that sounds like.

Just buy one of these :
http://www.tredz.co.uk/.Specialized-All ... _73383.htm

cheap at the price

then salvage the useable parts off your old bike then toss the frame in the skip.

bernithebiker

CiB wrote:

Bobbinogs wrote:

I would urge caution over this approach. Bear in mind the OP used the service to change tyres which means that a) he wasn't aware of when a tyre is worn and/or b) couldn't do a simple tyre replace himself. If either/both are applicable, I think rebuilding a bike is a tad ambitious!

KingG wrote:

Maybe LBS will take pity on me and do me a good labour rate if I buy the mech off them or something.
Anyway thank you all for your advice. I admit I’m not very techy at this and do rely on services to make sure everything is in order (save for cleaning/lubing)

Probably best to have the LBS do it then, but as a serious question, how difficult to people think it is to build a bike? Assume the headset is in place - if not then paying for that might be considered worthwhile - but beyond that it's nothing more than screwing things into place.

Work your way up - BB in place, a simple tool for a tenner to tighten it up, and watch for the l/h thread (same for pedals). Wheels? QR usually. Brakes are a single bolt through a hole in the frame or forks and you cant get them wrong as the rear won't go through the front forks. Pads shouldn't be able to pop out of the open end. Chain rings are 5 easy bolts done up with a £3.99 torx drive. Chain - fingers for the quick link, maybe a chain split tool too - another fiver.

Saddle, bars, front mech, rear mech & STIs are all nipped up with a basic Allen Key set. Cables are just cables - you'll need suitable lube. Out of all that, the hardest bit is indexing the gears - go on Youtube for 5 mins and marvel at how easy it is. In reality though it's nothing more than bolting A to B and fixing cable C to clamp D. If you find yourself trying to fix the rear mech to the handlebars it might be time to admit defeat, but there can't be many people who ride a bike who are congenitally unable to comprehend fixing part A to surface B without destroying it or getting it upside down.

Once it's done, leave it overnight, go over it closely in the morning then ride it slowly round the block. Anything not quite right will soon show itself, but once it's done the bike stops being a mystery and becomes something you can tweak and adjust to your heart's content, knowing that you've done it right and got it exactly how you want it.

Or pay a shop to be allowed to wait for them to fix A to B and clamp C to D.

All true, but I have seen many people that simply cannot change a light bulb.

I blame the Playstation generation. Never out in the woods building camps....

Many, many people that I have come across, will take a bike to the LBS to fit a bottle cage, or remove a bolt. They simply cannot tighten a bolt without stripping it or knackering the head.....