Cash Strapped Councils and Potholes

dee4life2005

A troubling development from a council close to where I cycle. After reading the sad news recently of a cyclist dying after hitting a pothole, this is lastest cost cutting measure if very concerning.
Do you agree?? Does you local council have the same policy?

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/ ... e-1.927768

Surely it's about time that some of the VED tax is ear marked for repairing the roads rather than being dumped into a central government pot that they can fritter away by sending it overseas.

fenix

Does seem a bit short sighted - but compared to the horrors of the rest of the world - potholes are nothing.

cookeeemonster

dee4life2005 wrote:

A troubling development from a council close to where I cycle. After reading the sad news recently of a cyclist dying after hitting a pothole, this is lastest cost cutting measure if very concerning.
Do you agree?? Does you local council have the same policy?

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/ ... e-1.927768

Surely it's about time that some of the VED tax is ear marked for repairing the roads rather than being dumped into a central government pot that they can fritter away by sending it overseas.

Seriously??? I know people think the VED tax pays for the roads anyway BUT IT DOESN'T (as you've said). Making it so would....probably not change much, but at least at present we can say that we pay at least the same as a motorist for the roads due to income and local taxation (actually more as the average cyclist earns more than the average motorist in this country...and around 85-90% have a car anyway).

Would be better if they'd scrap the 20 billion+ they've earmarked for new roads that nobody wants and spent it on repairing the roads we have.

And stopping this austerity nonsense.

veronese68

By not repairing the potholes the maintenance department can say they have saved money. Any compensation claims will come out of a different pot, sorry, so they still look good as far as the bean counters are concerned. One death or serious injury could cost them more than the repair bill for a year so very shortsighted.

wongataa

dee4life2005 wrote:

A troubling development from a council close to where I cycle. After reading the sad news recently of a cyclist dying after hitting a pothole, this is lastest cost cutting measure if very concerning.
Do you agree?? Does you local council have the same policy?

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/ ... e-1.927768

Surely it's about time that some of the VED tax is ear marked for repairing the roads rather than being dumped into a central government pot that they can fritter away by sending it overseas.

VED takings would not cover the amount needed for road repairs.

graeme_s-2

My wife was reading on Facebook last night that a former colleague of hers rode into a pothole last week. Sadly she smashed some teeth out and broke her jaw

cneifion

CookeeeMonster wrote:

dee4life2005 wrote:

A troubling development from a council close to where I cycle. After reading the sad news recently of a cyclist dying after hitting a pothole, this is lastest cost cutting measure if very concerning.
Do you agree?? Does you local council have the same policy?

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/ ... e-1.927768

Surely it's about time that some of the VED tax is ear marked for repairing the roads rather than being dumped into a central government pot that they can fritter away by sending it overseas.

Seriously??? I know people think the VED tax pays for the roads anyway BUT IT DOESN'T (as you've said). Making it so would....probably not change much, but at least at present we can say that we pay at least the same as a motorist for the roads due to income and local taxation (actually more as the average cyclist earns more than the average motorist in this country...and around 85-90% have a car anyway).

Would be better if they'd scrap the 20 billion+ they've earmarked for new roads that nobody wants and spent it on repairing the roads we have.

And stopping this austerity nonsense.

Definitely not a good idea to earmark part of VED specifically for roads, for the reasons CookeeeMonster gives, but it is going to happen - at least if you believe that governments do what they say they intend to do. In his Autumn Statement last year, Osborne announced that from 2020 a Road Fund would be set up with revenues from VED. While this was said to be for future road investment (rather than repairing potholes) it will likely reinforce the view of some motorists that they pay for the roads and cyclists don't.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Maybe I'm spotting more road issues because I'm so much more cautious since my RTA, but I swear my local roads look a lot worse now than two years or so ago. I did a small circuit on my Felt for the first time this year, the number of potholes and elongated trenches I had to avoid, made the ride not that pleasant.

fenix

I think all roads have deteriorated over the last few years. Bad weather, spending cuts, extra traffic.

I'm on bigger tyres than I used to ride and I'd not be looking for a bike with ultra close clearances again.

25mm is the minimum I think you need nowadays.

In 20 years time we'll all be on fat bikes.

mamba80

As a country we ve made choices, voted Tory, want austerity and want Trident, can t have it all, councils are under huge financial pressure and if they ve choice between road repairs and closing a adult special needs centre? they now have to fund social care with rises in council tax.

Whats really weird is as a lad, some lanes around here were unsurfaced tracks, councils adopted them and tarmacked over, these same lanes are now returning to tracks as they can no longer afford to maintain.

As for comp, so long as the council have inspected road recently, they dont have to pay out anything, the Gov relaxed the laws on this.

To me, the only way fwd is further rises in taxes.

Alex99

Fenix wrote:

I think all roads have deteriorated over the last few years. Bad weather, spending cuts, extra traffic.

I'm on bigger tyres than I used to ride and I'd not be looking for a bike with ultra close clearances again.

25mm is the minimum I think you need nowadays.

In 20 years time we'll all be on fat bikes.

Unfortunately, I think you do have to consider whether your bike is suitable for the roads on which you ride. 23-25 mm tyres may not be the right choice.

I do feel very angry for people hurt through poor road maintenance. One of the few times I've come off on the road was caused by a poor quality road repair that had sunk and basically locked my front wheel when I was going round a bend. But, what can we do? Write to our MPs? In the mean time, ride carefully folks! Save the fast wheels and tyres for special occasions.

redvision

The Government seem to have an agenda to cut council funding completely and it is no wonder the roads are in such a state.

They are supposed to be encouraging more people to cycle to ease congestion and meet carbon targets, yet the surfaces are becoming unrideable in places.

I know of one council who have an estimated road repair bill of £14 million yet they only have an annual road budget for 2016-17 for just £8 million.

weezyswiss

But then again, councils are their own worst enemy. Mine patches with minimal skill and within a week the hole starts up again.

Add to that, they resurfaced a road properly last summer, and within 2 weeks a utility was there digging it up. Total lack of co-ordination and the patchwork done by the utility is as check as possible. Guess what....yep the fix becomes a pothole. So, if they did their job properly then the roads would actually be maintained better, but as they are useless they degrade and then they complain of no money

redvision

WeezySwiss wrote:

But then again, councils are their own worst enemy. Mine patches with minimal skill and within a week the hole starts up again.

Add to that, they resurfaced a road properly last summer, and within 2 weeks a utility was there digging it up. Total lack of co-ordination and the patchwork done by the utility is as check as possible. Guess what....yep the fix becomes a pothole. So, if they did their job properly then the roads would actually be maintained better, but as they are useless they degrade and then they complain of no money

Their budgets dictate how much they spend repairing potholes.
If they have no money then they cannot resurface or repair the hole sufficiently/correctly.

The resurfacing you describe was poor planning, but i would assume the utility company had an emergency (burst pipe) under that new surface and had no option but to dig it up. When they did this it is their responsibility, not the councils, to repair the roadworks.

cookeeemonster

Cneifion wrote:

CookeeeMonster wrote:

dee4life2005 wrote:

A troubling development from a council close to where I cycle. After reading the sad news recently of a cyclist dying after hitting a pothole, this is lastest cost cutting measure if very concerning.
Do you agree?? Does you local council have the same policy?

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/ ... e-1.927768

Surely it's about time that some of the VED tax is ear marked for repairing the roads rather than being dumped into a central government pot that they can fritter away by sending it overseas.

Seriously??? I know people think the VED tax pays for the roads anyway BUT IT DOESN'T (as you've said). Making it so would....probably not change much, but at least at present we can say that we pay at least the same as a motorist for the roads due to income and local taxation (actually more as the average cyclist earns more than the average motorist in this country...and around 85-90% have a car anyway).

Would be better if they'd scrap the 20 billion+ they've earmarked for new roads that nobody wants and spent it on repairing the roads we have.

And stopping this austerity nonsense.

Definitely not a good idea to earmark part of VED specifically for roads, for the reasons CookeeeMonster gives, but it is going to happen - at least if you believe that governments do what they say they intend to do. In his Autumn Statement last year, Osborne announced that from 2020 a Road Fund would be set up with revenues from VED. While this was said to be for future road investment (rather than repairing potholes) it will likely reinforce the view of some motorists that they pay for the roads and cyclists don't.

Yeah saw that. It's actually to pay for roads that cyclists can't ride on anyway (motorways etc) but of course facts won't get in the way of the ignorant muppets out there

thegreatdivide

dee4life2005 wrote:

A troubling development from a council close to where I cycle. After reading the sad news recently of a cyclist dying after hitting a pothole, this is lastest cost cutting measure if very concerning.
Do you agree?? Does you local council have the same policy?

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/ ... e-1.927768

Surely it's about time that some of the VED tax is ear marked for repairing the roads rather than being dumped into a central government pot that they can fritter away by sending it overseas.

It's getting bad out there now. I love how they've perfectly resurface the road from the Inchture level crossing to just about Kingoodie, but as soon as the surfacing finishes there's a MASSIVE full lane pot hole that means you have to cross into the other lane to carry on! It's like they gave up and went home. Saying that - St Mike's to Tayport has got to be the best bit of road in Scotland now ;-)

bompington

WeezySwiss wrote:

But then again, councils are their own worst enemy. Mine patches with minimal skill and within a week the hole starts up again.

This always astounds me. There are a lot of roads around here (same as Dee4L's patch, although he clearly supports the wrong team) where the potholes get filled quite quickly - but always just by dobbing in a bit of tar and leaving a great bump in the road. I've seen some of them come totally undone in a couple of weeks.

Would it really be a lot more expensive to roll them flat?

andyrr

mamba80 wrote:

As a country we ve made choices, voted Tory, want austerity and want Trident, can t have it all, councils are under huge financial pressure and if they ve choice between road repairs and closing a adult special needs centre ? they now have to fund social care with rises in council tax.

Whats really weird is as a lad, some lanes around here were unsurfaced tracks, councils adopted them and tarmacked over, these same lanes are now returning to tracks as they can no longer afford to maintain.

As for comp, so long as the council have inspected road recently, they don't have to pay out anything, the Gov relaxed the laws on this.

To me, the only way fwd is further rises in taxes.

I think that the council's get out of having inspected the road within the required time-frame acting as get-out isn't totally accurate (the time-frame varies dependent upon the type of road - major road to be inspected more frequently than minor rural road).
If the council have been made aware of a road defect then they do need to attend to it and if injury or damage occurs because of that defect then they ARE liable.
That's my understanding anyway and one reason why I frequently use fillthathole to report potholes : some do get attended to quite quickly, others not.

Dorset_Boy

It used to be the case that the edges of the patches were sealed with tar to keep the water out. Not anymore, so the water gets into every crack, freezes and creates the hole.
The utility companies should be forced to repair their holes properly - ie seal them properly. That would be a start towards reducing the number of potholes.

Quite how to go about the repairs carried out by the councils without increasing costs I'm not sure, short of central government setting aside significant funds to repair the road network properly over a few years.

paul_onabike

Councils have a legal duty to maintain the roads. There is a code of practice which they adhere to, but it does not take into account the safety of road users other than those in motor vehicles. The code is based on risk management rather than the safety needs of road users. The code assumes that cyclists can ride through a 40mm deep hole with no loss of control or damage to the cycle.
We all know what is likely to happen when we try this though, and as far as I know no actual tests have been carried out to verify the assumptions as laid out in the code of practice.

What disappoints me is that we all moan about the holes, but how many of us actually report the holes. Most councils have online reporting systems now so there really is no excuse for not doing just that. If we all took five minutes a week to report one pothole the problems we face would become more apparent to the councils, and they would have to do the repairs within the specified time or they will be liable for any compensation claims.

I have started to report any holes on my regular routes, which can cover three counties, and I have found only that one council falls short of their legal duty with regards to inspection and repair times.

So lets get out there and stand up for ourselves. We should not accept roads which more dangerous than they need to be. The councils do have the money to fix the holes, they are just working in a reactive mode rather than being proactive.
REPORT A HOLE TODAY.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Could part of the blame or reason for where we now be due to the Internet and cyclists?

In the past, I suspect a lot of road maintence was down to council workers inspecting and prioritising repairs.

Then came along the Internet and sites such as http://www.fillthathole.org.uk , making it fairly easy to report potholes, but at the same time highlighting issues on relatively minor roads (which are far nicer to cycle on in my opinion).

If councils are obliged to react to reports, the annual budget is being used up far quicker, resulting in a worsening backlog during these tight economic times (not helped by the tax breaks given to multi-nationals etc.).

paul_onabike

NitrousOxide wrote:

Could part of the blame or reason for where we now be due to the Internet and cyclists?

In the past, I suspect a lot of road maintence was down to council workers inspecting and prioritising repairs.

Then came along the Internet and sites such as http://www.fillthathole.org.uk , making it fairly easy to report potholes, but at the same time highlighting issues on relatively minor roads (which are far nicer to cycle on in my opinion).

If councils are obliged to react to reports, the annual budget is being used up far quicker, resulting in a worsening backlog during these tight economic times (not helped by the tax breaks given to multi-nationals etc.).

There is the money to repair these holes, the councils just don't have the money to implement all the larger resurfacing schemes that they would like to do. Please don't listen to the scaremongering claims claims given out by councils - they can always find enough to fund their own pet schemes regardless of every other budget. They say they want to encourage cycling but never allocate any money to the cause.

The reason many councils choose to cut road budgets is because it is any easy option, but it directly affects our safety on the roads and we need to look after our own interests. The councils have structured their road maintenance procedures to comply with the bare minimum as laid down in the code of practice, but it is their legal duty to maintain the roads. Ultimately more cyclists will mean less money is spend on road maintenance, but they don't want this as motorists are a good source of revenue.

I don't expect the councils to give us super smooth defect free roads, just roads that don't actually pose a serious risk to cyclists. Any hole that is big enough to damage your wheels is potentially a killer to another cyclist. I feel the biggest danger is hitting a hole which causes a loss of control and you either fall off, or ride into the path of vehicular traffic.
There is an assumption by the councils that you can always avoid the holes by riding round them, but we know this is not always possible.

To be honest I never had any success using the fillahole site. I think the councils just delete it as spam. You have to report direct to the council.

The problems are worse for minor roads as they are generally only inspected once a year. This seems to be usually done before the winter so that the councils don't have to repair the following winters damage until it is either reported, or it is found in the next autumn inspection, thereby deferring it until the next years budget.

dee4life2005

thegreatdivide wrote:

dee4life2005 wrote:

A troubling development from a council close to where I cycle. After reading the sad news recently of a cyclist dying after hitting a pothole, this is lastest cost cutting measure if very concerning.
Do you agree?? Does you local council have the same policy?

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/ ... e-1.927768

Surely it's about time that some of the VED tax is ear marked for repairing the roads rather than being dumped into a central government pot that they can fritter away by sending it overseas.

It's getting bad out there now. I love how they've perfectly resurface the road from the Inchture level crossing to just about Kingoodie, but as soon as the surfacing finishes there's a MASSIVE full lane pot hole that means you have to cross into the other lane to carry on! It's like they gave up and went home. Saying that - St Mike's to Tayport has got to be the best bit of road in Scotland now ;-)

St. Mikes to Tayport is part of my commute, and yes it is AWESOME! It's just a shame that they stopped it a few hundred metres short of Tayport though as that little stretch (and through Tayport itself) is pretty bad for potholes on the bike.

dee4life2005

As someone posted above, we should start reporting all the holes. I do most of the time. Was reporting over a dozen a week.
The worst was the one that broke the two front springs on my car, costing a £200 repair bill. I phoned them about that. They were out within 24-hours spraying some yellow paint around it, but it still took them over two weeks to do anything about it.

weezyswiss

redvision wrote:

WeezySwiss wrote:

But then again, councils are their own worst enemy. Mine patches with minimal skill and within a week the hole starts up again.

Add to that, they resurfaced a road properly last summer, and within 2 weeks a utility was there digging it up. Total lack of co-ordination and the patchwork done by the utility is as check as possible. Guess what....yep the fix becomes a pothole. So, if they did their job properly then the roads would actually be maintained better, but as they are useless they degrade and then they complain of no money

Their budgets dictate how much they spend repairing potholes.
If they have no money then they cannot resurface or repair the hole sufficiently/correctly.

The resurfacing you describe was poor planning, but i would assume the utility company had an emergency (burst pipe) under that new surface and had no option but to dig it up. When they did this it is their responsibility, not the councils, to repair the roadworks.

You think that but a patch job never lasts and is false economy. Utilities never repair with a proper job, and it seems they never co-ordinate with the council. Numerous times I see work done after resurfacing.

Budgets dictate, but also incompetence presides, and do not think utilities are anything in the modern day. I had gas works done a few years back, 1 crew to dig the hole, another to lay the pipe to the meter, another to do past meter in the house and a final crew to fill the hole. Oh, and a max of 4 90 degree bends for the job.

So, I remain convinced lack of co-ordination to retain usable roads and value for money.

fenix

Get big tyres - put it in a big gear and pretend it's Paris Roubaix. That's what I do.

redvision

WeezySwiss wrote:

You think that but a patch job never lasts and is false economy. Utilities never repair with a proper job, and it seems they never co-ordinate with the council. Numerous times I see work done after resurfacing.

Budgets dictate, but also incompetence presides, and do not think utilities are anything in the modern day. I had gas works done a few years back, 1 crew to dig the hole, another to lay the pipe to the meter, another to do past meter in the house and a final crew to fill the hole. Oh, and a max of 4 90 degree bends for the job.

So, I remain convinced lack of co-ordination to retain usable roads and value for money.

The problems lie at the top. The constant cuts to local government funding, with council tax rises being limited, means it is inevitable that something has to be sacrificed. If school budgets take the hit there would be uproar.

I have first hand experience and knowledge of the road budget for one council and i can assure you they do the best they can but when the cost of repairs is significantly greater than the entire road budget allocation for the year then what are they supposed to do??

The fact is the roads have been neglected and will only get worse, but it is not down to the councils incompetence, it is down to the councils having zero funds.

andyrr

I know someone that until recently dealt with the roads dept for a Scottish council and when a utility co digs up a road they are to then return it to a decent state but the council need to check the work as it is obviously something that often is not done satisfactorily.
This council (large Scottish city) has 1 team of a couple of guys and, I was told, they have no hope of getting round all repair works hence many are left unchecked or checked belatedly, and by the the time the council team DO get to it the repair co are long gone and it is too much hassle to get them to come back and do a further 1/2 arsed job.

I think a combination of council spending squeeze over the last couple of years plus very wet winter the roads are going to deteriorate really badly - once the puddles dry up many roads will resemble the surface of the moon (and many already do).

lesfirth

A few years ago I noticed a bloke with a clipboard and a tape measure looking at the road outside my workplace. He measured various bits and sprayed yellow paint around. It became obvious that what he was doing related to defects in the road surface. This took some considerable time and it was noticeable that some minor defects were marked with paint and others that were worse were not. My curiosity got the better of me and I wandered out to question the bloke. He explained that the defects he had marked were the result of utility companies digging up the road. They did a temporary job and paid the council to do a proper job later so the council had the money to fix these holes.The unmarked potholes were the councils and they did not have the cash to fix their own.
A few days later council workers turned up and fixed the marked bits of the road and left worse holes a few inches away,despite having all the gear needed. The extra cost to do all the holes would have been minimal.
A few months later the same bloke returned and marked the councils potholes which were now worse and few days later the same council workers returned and fixed them.
That is how to double the cost and make two jobs out of one.

paul_onabike

lesfirth wrote:

A few years ago I noticed a bloke with a clipboard and a tape measure looking at the road outside my workplace. He measured various bits and sprayed yellow paint around. It became obvious that what he was doing related to defects in the road surface. This took some considerable time and it was noticeable that some minor defects were marked with paint and others that were worse were not. My curiosity got the better of me and I wandered out to question the bloke. He explained that the defects he had marked were the result of utility companies digging up the road. They did a temporary job and paid the council to do a proper job later so the council had the money to fix these holes.The unmarked potholes were the councils and they did not have the cash to fix their own.
A few days later council workers turned up and fixed the marked bits of the road and left worse holes a few inches away,despite having all the gear needed. The extra cost to do all the holes would have been minimal.
A few months later the same bloke returned and marked the councils potholes which were now worse and few days later the same council workers returned and fixed them.
That is how to double the cost and make two jobs out of one.

Last autumn, on a country road I ride weekly, the contractors that work for this particular council came along and closed the road for the day. During this time they repaired quite a few small areas of road, all on the same side of the road. There were actually only one or 2 holes that really needed filling, but they repaired larger areas than were really necessary. Less than 2 weeks later another contractor, who was obviously working for one of the utilities, came along and dug a 3 foot wide trench along the whole stretch of road which had been repaired. The trench works removed most of the new patches, leaving the odd 4 inches of so sticking out the side of the new trench. No doubt there was some accounting reason for repairing the patches before the trench was dug, but surely common sense would suggest that it was a total waste of money repairing the patches.

I have absolutely no sympathy when councils complain that the don't have the money to fix the holes. Its no good saying they don't have the resources, as the problems will only get worse. They need to get a lot more efficient and stop this waste of tax payers money.
Most of the cost of repairing holes is getting workers and equipment to the site and,as in the example quoted above, just because it isn't listed to repair doesn't mean it should not be done at the same time. This would considerably reduce costs over time, but wouldn't be liked by the box tickers, bean counters and pen pushers within the council.
What is needed is to give the workmen some freedom to do this when they are at the site.

fudgey

In the papers last year was a story on one area where someone had gone around with a can of white spray paint and painted cocks around all the potholes they could find.
The council soon repaired them!

Edit:

[url=Http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/this-man-is-painting-penises-on-potholes-so-the-council-has-to-take-action--ekSuZ63mgW]Http://indy100.independent.co.uk/articl ... ekSuZ63mgW[/url]