Tyres - Conti Grand Prix vs Grand Prix 4000s II ?

photonic69

Tyres - Conti Grand Prix vs Grand Prix 4000s II ?

As above really. I'm not a racer. I don't compete. I ride at weekends 40-60 miles. I want to ride more. I need new tyres.

Considering I can get wire beaded 25C Grand Prix with PolyX Breaker protection and BlackChili compound for around £18 per tyre VS £30 for the 4000s II folding version with similar properties i.e. BlackChili and Vectran. Yes, it would be lovely to get the 4000s II but for the extra £22 I could buy some SwissStop pads or it could go towards a new Spring Jersey/Jacket.

What to do? Any ideas? Would I really notice the extra niceness of the 4000s? Or should I go 4 Seasons or Gatorskins etc?

EDIT: They have to fit a Giant Defy 3 ML with mudguards fitted. Currently have the standard Giant 25C tyres that need replacing. So nothing that comes up 'tall'.

TIA

Nic.

852Kompol

PhotoNic69 wrote:

Tyres - Conti Grand Prix vs Grand Prix 4000s II ?

As above really. I'm not a racer. I don't compete. I ride at weekends 40-60 miles. I want to ride more. I need new tyres.

Considering I can get wire beaded 25C Grand Prix with PolyX Breaker protection and BlackChili compound for around £18 per tyre VS £30 for the 4000s II folding version with similar properties i.e. BlackChili and Vectran. Yes, it would be lovely to get the 4000s II but for the extra £22 I could buy some SwissStop pads or it could go towards a new Spring Jersey/Jacket.

What to do? Any ideas? Would I really notice the extra niceness of the 4000s? Or should I go 4 Seasons or Gatorskins etc?

EDIT: They have to fit a Giant Defy 3 ML with mudguards fitted. Currently have the standard Giant 25C tyres that need replacing. So nothing that comes up 'tall'.

TIA

Nic.

I actually ran both. hang on, actually more than that.
I used to run
22c wire beaded Grand Prix Front & Rear
23c folding Grand Prix Front & Rear
and now I run
22c folding GP Attack Front & 23c folding GP4000SII Rear

out of the bunch the best value/weight/Performance I reckon is likely the 23C folding Grand Prix.
The Beaded one is not bad by any means and being 22c it does not drag you slow by any chance,
but I would prefer a folding one just to cut some weight off.
the difference between Grandprix and GP4000S2 is not much I must say, I got them as the LBS put them up for half price.(free tube too!)
Gatorskin though...those felt like plastic garden hoses compare to the 2 above... is not bad by any means, but the difference is much more noticeable.
4Seasons...I haven't tried that....perhaps someone here will shed some light on it.
and puncture ? well where I live has roads that are actually not riddled with pot holes so I can't tell the difference, I did once had a pinch puncture on the GP attack once running over a drainage cover, but hey, That's more me that the tyre's fault.

northpole

If you want a decent performance tyre with excellent value for money, I'd point you in the direction of the michelin pro4 service course or, for a bit more longevity, pro4 endurance. The conti 4 seasons are decent tyres, a bit like a more treaded version of the gp4000s hence slightly better longevity and p*ncture protection without too much compromise on feel. But you tend not to get offers on them much below £30 each whereas the pro4's can often be had around the £20 mark. I'm happy with either.

Peter

the playing mantis

i value staying upright and grip.

gp4000s ii everytime for me. nothing wrong with the others but i consider these the grippiest

paul_onabike

For normal use I have 23mm grand prix folding on the rear and 23mm GP4000sii on the front. The Standard grand prix doesn't grip quite as well as the sii, but lasts about 3 times longer as the rear. The sii lasts well on the front and gives good grip where you want it, but can cut up a little on winter roads - not enough to be a problem though. It just looks a little disconcerting when you see all the little cuts in the tread. I have to periodically dig out quite a few small flints from the tread, but never had a problem with punctures though.

I found the 4 season to be grippy but terribly short lived on the winter roads, so soon stopped using them.

Never got on with michelin pros, as the ones I had never lasted long enough to wear out - they always got cut up badly early on, rendering them unsafe to use.

The contis expand in width with normal use, a 23 will end up nearer 24-25mm, and a 25 will grow to almost a 28mm wide tyre in a surprisingly short time -so allow for this when choosing a tyre width.

cycleclinic

I have never had any tyre grow in width conti or anything else with use so j would ignore that commment. Tyres dont get bigger by themselves.

rokt

I run Grand Prix 4000s II on my Mavic wheels I use as my every day wheels and Grand Prix on my carbon wheels, why that way round I don't know ! I can honestly say I can't tell the difference between the two :shock:

photonic69

Thanks for all the input and views. Tyre choice is always going to be a VERY subjective area but it's always useful to get real world scenarios and experience.

In the end I went for a compromise Conti Grand Prix GT's in 25c with the folding bead from Chain Reaction
for £23 each which seems like a good deal. They have [/quote] " An extra-wide PolyX Breaker protects against thorns, glass andother sharp objects whilst a continuous 3 ply casing gives 50%more sidewall thickness without adding much weight."

Hopefully I'll get them in time for the weekend so I'll give feedback once fitted and tested.

Oh, and with the savings I bought some SwissStop Flash Pro Brake Pads so all in all hopefully a good upgrade all round.

Thanks

Nic.

Spartacus1981

Was just about to say I have a set of 23's (Grand Prix 4000s II) with a max of about 40 miles on if anyone was interested.

earth

I second the Michelins.

imposter2.0

thecycleclinic wrote:

I have never had any tyre grow in width conti or anything else with use so j would ignore that commment. Tyres dont get bigger by themselves.

As above. Never heard of Contis (or any other tyre) expanding through use. If you think about it - it's absurd.

Alex99

Imposter wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

I have never had any tyre grow in width conti or anything else with use so j would ignore that commment. Tyres dont get bigger by themselves.

As above. Never heard of Contis (or any other tyre) expanding through use. If you think about it - it's absurd.

I have obsvered tyres growing a little in the first few days of full inflation. It is well known in the MTB world where the tyres are so much larger and the initial stretch is more obvious. What's so hard to believe about it?

imposter2.0

Alex99 wrote:

Imposter wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

I have never had any tyre grow in width conti or anything else with use so j would ignore that commment. Tyres dont get bigger by themselves.

As above. Never heard of Contis (or any other tyre) expanding through use. If you think about it - it's absurd.

I have obsvered tyres growing a little in the first few days of full inflation. It is well known in the MTB world where the tyres are so much larger and the initial stretch is more obvious. What's so hard to believe about it?

Because I've never ever heard of it and never seen it happen. I've had a lot of Contis over the years and I've currently got six pairs of Conti tyres fitted onto various road, track and MTB wheelsets and none of them have stretched. The casing is not designed to stretch and stretching would imply a partial failure of the casing, which would be a bit of a worry.

Alex99

Imposter wrote:

Alex99 wrote:

Imposter wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

I have never had any tyre grow in width conti or anything else with use so j would ignore that commment. Tyres dont get bigger by themselves.

As above. Never heard of Contis (or any other tyre) expanding through use. If you think about it - it's absurd.

I have obsvered tyres growing a little in the first few days of full inflation. It is well known in the MTB world where the tyres are so much larger and the initial stretch is more obvious. What's so hard to believe about it?

Because I've never ever heard of it and never seen it happen. I've had a lot of Contis over the years and I've currently got six pairs of Conti tyres fitted onto various road, track and MTB wheelsets and none of them have stretched. The casing is not designed to stretch and stretching would imply a partial failure of the casing, which would be a bit of a worry.

Well, there are a few reports of it here, so now you've heard of it 8)

It's odd, I've heard of it lots of times over. Proabably varies from type to type, but I don't see the issue. It's not like tyres are made from steel. They're made of nylon or cotton mixed with various organic polymers. Viscoelastic behaviour is not beyond the realms of reason.

fenix

Interesting. Never heard of road tyres expanding - but then again I've never looked or measured for it. Maybe its plausible but anyway...

Get the GP4000S.

apreading

I have never heard of it either. Not saying it doesnt happen but I spend far too much time on various forums and have never, ever noticed anyone mention it.

Anyhoo - dont know quite how it happened (I think maybe a bit of indecision) but I ended up with a 25mm GP4000S on the front and 28mm GP 4 Seasons on the back - seems to work well. Actually they size up about the same with the GP4000S coming in a bit wider than they say and the GP4S coming up smaller than they say. Gives me more grip in the front, where its more important and more puncture protection in the rear where there is more weight. Have seen no reason to change so both have been replaced over time and have just stayed with the same formula, all year round.

luv2ride

PhotoNic69 wrote:

In the end I went for a compromise Conti Grand Prix GT's in 25c with the folding bead from Chain Reaction
for £23 each which seems like a good deal.

Hopefully I'll get them in time for the weekend so I'll give feedback once fitted

I've got a pair of these and like them - a good size, good grip, decent rolling resistance. I also run the Michelin Pro4 Endurance. TBH, I like them both.

Alex99

apreading wrote:

I have never heard of it either. Not saying it doesnt happen but I spend far too much time on various forums and have never, ever noticed anyone mention it.

Anyhoo - dont know quite how it happened (I think maybe a bit of indecision) but I ended up with a 25mm GP4000S on the front and 28mm GP 4 Seasons on the back - seems to work well. Actually they size up about the same with the GP4000S coming in a bit wider than they say and the GP4S coming up smaller than they say. Gives me more grip in the front, where its more important and more puncture protection in the rear where there is more weight. Have seen no reason to change so both have been replaced over time and have just stayed with the same formula, all year round.

Not wanting to spend much more time on this, I'll just post one reference from Scwalbe:
"...a recently fitted tire still widens over time. This can make a difference of 1 to 2 mm."
http://www.schwalbe.com/gb/reifenmasse.html

apreading

Well, I stand corrected - you learn something new every day. I wonder though, is that just because the tyre itself stretches or is some part of it at least due to settling down on the bead?

imposter2.0

I'm yet to be convinced this is an actual 'thing'. A brief, vague reference in a Schwalbe Q&A (especially when the issue is supposed to be around Conti tyres) is an interesting anecdote, but not much else. If this was a widespread issue, manufacturers would need to state this in their literature/packaging and would be open to litigation if an 'expanding' tyre was ever identified as the cause of an accident, or some other kind of tyre failure..

fenix

Hard to think why a 1mm increase in width would cause an accident ?

imposter2.0

Fenix wrote:

Hard to think why a 1mm increase in width would cause an accident ?

It would if you only had 1mm clearance to start with, and said tyre then 'expanded' and promptly blew out while the hapless owner was negotiating an alpine downhill hairpin with a truck coming up the other way. There are several threads on here where people are trying to squeeze unfeasibly large tyres into close-clearance frames...

Like I said, if this was even close to being a real-life issue, then manufacturers would have covered their arses with warning labels all over the tyres they sell...

Frank pole

My 25mm pro endurance measure 28.5mm on 15c rims - don't care though as they ride super comfy!

Alex99

Imposter wrote:

I'm yet to be convinced this is an actual 'thing'. A brief, vague reference in a Schwalbe Q&A (especially when the issue is supposed to be around Conti tyres) is an interesting anecdote, but not much else. If this was a widespread issue, manufacturers would need to state this in their literature/packaging and would be open to litigation if an 'expanding' tyre was ever identified as the cause of an accident, or some other kind of tyre failure..

Well, you can of course ignore this from Schwalbe, and you can also dismiss first hand reports. Your position that it can't happen (because you can't imagine how), and therefore never happens, appears to be no more than a article of faith.

It's not an issue, and it's not tyre failure.

"If this was a widespread issue, manufacturers would need to state this in their literature..."
-See Schwalbe

Alex99

apreading wrote:

Well, I stand corrected - you learn something new every day. I wonder though, is that just because the tyre itself stretches or is some part of it at least due to settling down on the bead?

Interesting question. An initial part may be the bead settling into place and maybe the tyre 'straightening out' from being folded. I suspect that some is from viscoelasticity of the polymers in the casing. If you were so inclined, you could fit a tyre for a while, measure it, take it off again for a few days, then re-fit and measure again to see if it has shrunk a smidge.

It's a nerdy experiment alright.

imposter2.0

Alex99 wrote:

Imposter wrote:

I'm yet to be convinced this is an actual 'thing'. A brief, vague reference in a Schwalbe Q&A (especially when the issue is supposed to be around Conti tyres) is an interesting anecdote, but not much else. If this was a widespread issue, manufacturers would need to state this in their literature/packaging and would be open to litigation if an 'expanding' tyre was ever identified as the cause of an accident, or some other kind of tyre failure..

Well, you can of course ignore this from Schwalbe, and you can also dismiss first hand reports. Your position that it can't happen (because you can't imagine how), and therefore never happens, appears to be no more than a article of faith.

It's not an issue, and it's not tyre failure.

"If this was a widespread issue, manufacturers would need to state this in their literature..."
-See Schwalbe

Can you not see how something like this (if true) might potentially cause a tyre-failure related accident and how, in some cases, this might lead to class action lawsuits and similar? If this was the case, can you not see how tyre companies might (if this was a genuine issue) want to mitigate against such action by being absolutely clear about the risks of tyres increasing in width during use? A vague and obscure reference, in a vague and obscure part of a vague and obscure Q&A on a single manufacturer's website doesn't really provide much, if anything, in the way of mitigation.

Alex99

Imposter wrote:

Alex99 wrote:

Imposter wrote:

I'm yet to be convinced this is an actual 'thing'. A brief, vague reference in a Schwalbe Q&A (especially when the issue is supposed to be around Conti tyres) is an interesting anecdote, but not much else. If this was a widespread issue, manufacturers would need to state this in their literature/packaging and would be open to litigation if an 'expanding' tyre was ever identified as the cause of an accident, or some other kind of tyre failure..

Well, you can of course ignore this from Schwalbe, and you can also dismiss first hand reports. Your position that it can't happen (because you can't imagine how), and therefore never happens, appears to be no more than a article of faith.

It's not an issue, and it's not tyre failure.

"If this was a widespread issue, manufacturers would need to state this in their literature..."
-See Schwalbe

I see you are not familiar with American-style litigation culture. I note all the points you make, and I also note the obscure reference in Schwalbe's obscure Q&A. Like I said before, if this was a real issue, tyre companies would be all over it. Because if they weren't, then you can bet the US legal system would be...

That only suggests that it isn't deemed to be safety issue, or at the least one for which the tyre manufacturer is unlikely to be proven liable. It says nothing about whether tyres expand, or not.

Relying on this as evidence against casing expansion seems a stretch. Especially since more than one person on this little forum topic alone, has seen it first hand.

Alex99

Imposter wrote:

Alex99 wrote:

Imposter wrote:

I'm yet to be convinced this is an actual 'thing'. A brief, vague reference in a Schwalbe Q&A (especially when the issue is supposed to be around Conti tyres) is an interesting anecdote, but not much else. If this was a widespread issue, manufacturers would need to state this in their literature/packaging and would be open to litigation if an 'expanding' tyre was ever identified as the cause of an accident, or some other kind of tyre failure..

Well, you can of course ignore this from Schwalbe, and you can also dismiss first hand reports. Your position that it can't happen (because you can't imagine how), and therefore never happens, appears to be no more than a article of faith.

It's not an issue, and it's not tyre failure.

"If this was a widespread issue, manufacturers would need to state this in their literature..."
-See Schwalbe

Can you not see how something like this (if true) might potentially cause a tyre-failure related accident and how, in some cases, this might lead to class action lawsuits and similar? If this was the case, can you not see how tyre companies might (if this was a genuine issue) want to mitigate against such action by being absolutely clear about the risks of tyres increasing in width during use? A vague and obscure reference, in a vague and obscure part of a vague and obscure Q&A on a single manufacturer's website doesn't really provide much, if anything, in the way of mitigation.

If a person fits a tyre that is so unsuitable for the bike in question that it is nearly touching the frame or brake before it's even ridden, then honestly, you tell me what you think is going to happen in court?

imposter2.0

Alex99 wrote:

If a person fits a tyre that is so unsuitable for the bike in question that it is nearly touching the frame or brake before it's even ridden, then honestly, you tell me what you think is going to happen in court?

Unfortunately, common sense has very little to do with this. My example is obviously a bit alarmist - but the point is valid. If there was even the remotest possibility of tyre companies being sued in this way, they would have addressed it and we would have wall-to-wall warning signs all over the boxes and all over the tyres.

keef66

"Relying on this as evidence against casing expansion seems a stretch"

I see what you did there...

photonic69

Ummmm... guys, can we stick to the Topic Title please? If you want to debate about the expansive capacity of tyres which may or may not stretch please start your own thread ;-)

Have a nice day, y'all.....