Tried a number of wheel but what now?

furiousd

Hi all,
I know wheels get asked about on here every other thread but i am hoping someone can offer some sensible advice.
I have tried a number of wheels but need some thing new for my Cervelo.
A bit of history:
R500 that came with Bianchi have been very good, lasted about 4 years, a lot of miles, never went out of true but then a spoke broke. Overall very happy with these but not the best wheel on the market.
H+Son on 105 hubs hand built, when i first got them i loved them on the Bianchi, didn't like them on the Cervelo, rear mech hit spoke and needed a new rim. My fault i know. So get a new rim, few new spokes and it was OK, just never the same again. When back to the R500's on the Bianchi, spoke broke so used the H+Son and even after making sure of everything rear mech hit spokes again, new rear drop out and rear mech again.
Bought some RS81's for the Cervelo. Seemed very good at first, rims wear quickly though then all of a sudden severe rear buckle whilst riding along a straight smooth road. Had to be picked up. New spoke and truing needed. Now does not run perfectly round and bearings are rough. Had some newer R500's in the garage so put these on the Cervelo.
Recently bough a Lynskey which came with Campag Scirocco 35CX wheels. All good for 600 miles then new free hub and bearings as they were knackered. Was done under warranty, 60 mile ride yesterday and play in the bearing now.

What am i doing wrong? I know most people say go with hand built but i don't seem to have much luck with either hand or factory built.

Thought about some Zonda's for the Cervelo and chuck them in the bin in a couple of years. If they make it that far.

Any advice?
Thanks
D

PTestTeam

FuriousD wrote:

Hi all,
I know wheels get asked about on here every other thread but i am hoping someone can offer some sensible advice.
I have tried a number of wheels but need some thing new for my Cervelo.
A bit of history:
R500 that came with Bianchi have been very good, lasted about 4 years, a lot of miles, never went out of true but then a spoke broke. Overall very happy with these but not the best wheel on the market.
H+Son on 105 hubs hand built, when i first got them i loved them on the Bianchi, didn't like them on the Cervelo, rear mech hit spoke and needed a new rim. My fault i know. So get a new rim, few new spokes and it was OK, just never the same again. When back to the R500's on the Bianchi, spoke broke so used the H+Son and even after making sure of everything rear mech hit spokes again, new rear drop out and rear mech again.
Bought some RS81's for the Cervelo. Seemed very good at first, rims wear quickly though then all of a sudden severe rear buckle whilst riding along a straight smooth road. Had to be picked up. New spoke and truing needed. Now does not run perfectly round and bearings are rough. Had some newer R500's in the garage so put these on the Cervelo.
Recently bough a Lynskey which came with Campag Scirocco 35CX wheels. All good for 600 miles then new free hub and bearings as they were knackered. Was done under warranty, 60 mile ride yesterday and play in the bearing now.

What am i doing wrong? I know most people say go with hand built but i don't seem to have much luck with either hand or factory built.

Thought about some Zonda's for the Cervelo and chuck them in the bin in a couple of years. If they make it that far.

Any advice?
Thanks
D

I've been using a pair of Miche Syntium's for two winter's now. I haven't had to true them and the bearings are still smooth as silk. They're lightweight but bloody tough.

http://road.cc/content/review/170567-mi ... y-wheelset

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/cate ... -13-46888/

ugo.santalucia

I think we have discussed this in the past. Reading the all story I am more convinced than ever than none of your problems are down to the wheels. Invest in a good bike maintenance course/book and a few tools would be my advice

furiousd

Ugo,
The Scirocco are sealed cartridge bearings, 600 miles in 4 months.........
The original R500 are still smooth with very little maintenance. RS81's massive buckle for no reason.
There is nothing wrong with my bike maintenance i am perfectly capable of maintaing all of my bikes, maybe it is the quality or build of the wheels......

ugo.santalucia

FuriousD wrote:

Ugo,
The Scirocco are sealed cartridge bearings, 600 miles in 4 months.........
The original R500 are still smooth with very little maintenance. RS81's massive buckle for no reason.
There is nothing wrong with my bike maintenance i am perfectly capable of maintaing all of my bikes, maybe it is the quality or build of the wheels......

Even sealed bearings require you to disassemble the hub/freehub, wipe clean and regrease, otherwise they don't last, I do it every month or so on the rear hub and I have sealed bearings... generally get over 10K miles out of a set of inexpensive bearings, including winter riding. Sealed doesn't mean zero maintenance. RS 81, maybe you are a bit on the heavy side for those... they are really meant for someone who is 60-70 Kg... Shimano don't put a weigh limit on their products, but that doesn't mean they are for everybody. I am 69 Kg and would think of them as too flimsy for me and the riding I do.
The mech catching the spokes is a bent hanger... modern aluminium hangers bend very easily, you just need to put a bit of pressure on a crossed chain and they're bent... a bad shift and they're bent

scott_w1987

Archetypes rims on Miche Primatos 24/28 or 28/32 depending on the riding you do/weight you are, DT comp spokes. Job done.

Not really sure why you're existing Archetypes were no good after being rebuilt on a new rim?

bendertherobot

Sounds like bad luck to me. RS81 are fine but, IMO, IF you hit something then the carbon wrap pulls what's left of the wheel all over the place. Mate of mine brushed a car, smacked the rim, could never ever get it back into true after that. I used them when 85kg with no issue.

To be honest I clean and maintain my bikes but not overly so. The CX sounds particularly odd given that they were designed for CX stuff.

ugo.santalucia

bendertherobot wrote:

To be honest I clean and maintain my bikes but not overly so. The CX sounds particularly odd given that they were designed for CX stuff.

For fulcrum/Campagnolo CX wheels means they have 2RS bearings instead of RS. Given the extra rubber seal is on the inner side of the hub, it virtually makes no difference

darkhairedlord

Another set of 501's or take up golf.

MikeBrew

darkhairedlord wrote:

Another set of 501's or take up golf.

Eh?

Grill

FuriousD wrote:

Ugo,
The Scirocco are sealed cartridge bearings, 600 miles in 4 months.........
The original R500 are still smooth with very little maintenance. RS81's massive buckle for no reason.
There is nothing wrong with my bike maintenance i am perfectly capable of maintaing all of my bikes, maybe it is the quality or build of the wheels......

My set of Fulcrum 5 didn't even last that long. Handbuilt + regular maintenance is key.

rolf_f

Grill wrote:

FuriousD wrote:

Ugo,
The Scirocco are sealed cartridge bearings, 600 miles in 4 months.........
The original R500 are still smooth with very little maintenance. RS81's massive buckle for no reason.
There is nothing wrong with my bike maintenance i am perfectly capable of maintaing all of my bikes, maybe it is the quality or build of the wheels......

My set of Fulcrum 5 didn't even last that long. Handbuilt + regular maintenance is key.

I think you must be doing something wrong then! Either that or just unlucky. But bad luck can apply to handbuilts as well as factory wheels...... In any case, the pros and cons of factory vs handbuilt can hardly apply to the bearing lifespan; the bearing doesn't know if it has been inserted into a handbuilt wheel rather than a factory one.

Grill

300 miles of that was in pissing Mallorcan rain, but a week of bad weather shouldn't kill wheels (freehub was knackered and took 5 months to get a replacement).

Bobbinogs

The OP seems to be breaking a lot of spokes (putting the bearing issues to one side). I would start with getting the OP to answer the "What weight are you" question? I would also get the OP to answer whether it is him rebuilding the wheels or someone who knows what they are doing?

H+ Son Archetypes are supposed to be one of the best rims out there so, matched with the right number of spokes and the right type, the build should not be an issue if built correctly.

DeVlaeminck

Not convinced Shimano weels are designed for 60-70kg riders, I tend to be high 70s to low 80s kg up to about 85kgs t worst and haven't had a problem with any factory wheels that could be attributed to weight - eg spokes breaking, flexing, going out of true - I've had rs81s too.

For the OP, clearly a lot of your problems with spokes hitting mechs etc are poor bike set up/maintenance. As for slight pay in cartridge bearings, Ugo gives good advice on making hubs/bearings last longer but perhaps you could just live with the play as often in my experience it doesn't get worse and has little affect on performance.

ugo.santalucia

Bobbinogs wrote:

The OP seems to be breaking a lot of spokes (putting the bearing issues to one side). I would start with getting the OP to answer the "What weight are you" question? I would also get the OP to answer whether it is him rebuilding the wheels or someone who knows what they are doing?

H+ Son Archetypes are supposed to be one of the best rims out there so, matched with the right number of spokes and the right type, the build should not be an issue if built correctly.

I did build the wheels 2-3 years ago, then repaired the rear when a few spokes were mowed by the rear derailleur, then rebuilt it when the rim died (wear or damage, can't remember). If I remember correctly, the OP said that the wheel was no longer stiff when fitted to the Cervelo frame he bought at a later stage, while it was stiff on the Bianchi frame he had originally. I was puzzled then, I still am.

The others were factory wheelsets... spokes pop occasionally in those and of course if you have 16/20 spokes, when that happens it is a car ride back home. Bearing issues = maintenance and so is a rear mech/chain in the spokes... you need to keep an eye to mech hanger, limit screws etc

Stiffness mystery aside, it seems to me the OP suffered a series of mechanical failures, some of which are bad luck (popped spokes) some could be avoided (bearings/mowed spokes)

OfficerDigby

Ugo, Just to check...
For cartridge bearings you are saying open up wipe outer seal and re-grease quasi regularly ?

Not knock the cartridge out and wipe all of it and replace n' re-grease?

Upon writing option 2 sounds crazy. must be option 1!

ugo.santalucia

OfficerDigby wrote:

Ugo, Just to check...
For cartridge bearings you are saying open up wipe outer seal and re-grease quasi regularly ?

Not knock the cartridge out and wipe all of it and replace n' re-grease?

Upon writing option 2 sounds crazy. must be option 1!

Option one... just keep the area clean, dry and greased... never touch the seals

furiousd

Hi all,
thanks for the comments
To clarify - i have only ever had one spoke break whilst riding, this was on the R500 with lots of miles
Ugo replaced some spoke after the rear mech hit them, however they didn't break.
Rs81's had a spoke replaced as it snapped when they got rid of the buckle
I appreciate the wheel hitting the rear mech is poor set up, and i have identified that in the first post, however it has never happened on any wheels prior or after the H+Sons.
Weight wise i am about 85kg now. The H+Son were 32/32
My disappointment at the moment is the bearings in the Sciroccos

ugo.santalucia

FuriousD wrote:

Hi all,
thanks for the comments
To clarify - i have only ever had one spoke break whilst riding, this was on the R500 with lots of miles
Ugo replaced some spoke after the rear mech hit them, however they didn't break.
Rs81's had a spoke replaced as it snapped when they got rid of the buckle
I appreciate the wheel hitting the rear mech is poor set up, and i have identified that in the first post, however it has never happened on any wheels prior or after the H+Sons.
Weight wise i am about 85kg now. The H+Son were 32/32
My disappointment at the moment is the bearings in the Sciroccos

Change them, if they are the same as Fulcrum 7, they use an inexpensive size... 2-3 quid each

cycleclinic

The thing is i have never opened up my cartidge bearing miche hubs or my novatecs for th maintance ugo suggests and mine have way more than 600 miles on the bearings. I ride in all kinds of shit too.

Bad luck for sure. I was going to suggest that the wheel had been laced with the pulling pushing spoke reveresed until i clocked that ugo built them which means he probably did it the right way round so that as a possible nut unlikely cause is out.
Mechs hit spokes because the mech is not set up right or the hanger is bent. It is is as simple as that. Actually i have one bike an old alan with a campagnolo triomphe mech (which is a bit rubbish) and the only way to get the chain to move into the biggest cog is to overshift it till the outer cage rubs the spokes. Still i have never manged to mangle anything even on that bike. I am saying this because you can shift the mech into the spokes and not mangle everything you must have to be a bit in tune with the bike.

Sometimes cartridge bearing lack enough grease to last. When that happens simply replace. If it happens again there is something wrong with the hub. Personally i dont trust one seal bearings i know it should not make a difference but ....

mugensi

I've Zondas on both my bikes and the 2011 pair have thousands of winter/wet miles on them and have only been serviced once and that was done purely as precautionary and not because the bearings were noisy or rough. Neither sets (in fairness the set on my good bike are less than a year old) have ever had to be trued or straightened. I'm 74/75kg so not exactly heavyweight.

I had a set of Quattros before the newest Zondas and they remained true/straight for over 6000kms and were never serviced in the time I had them. The current owner tells me he has done thousands of km's on them since and they still have never needed attention.

I think your problem may be simply down to rotten bad luck.

london-red

FuriousD wrote:

Hi all,

Thought about some Zonda's for the Cervelo and chuck them in the bin in a couple of years. If they make it that far.

D

Really? Zondas are completely bomb proof IME. I've run them for years and not once have they fallen out of true, and not once have I had them serviced. And I'm 85kg.

Bobbinogs

London-Red wrote:

FuriousD wrote:

Hi all,

Thought about some Zonda's for the Cervelo and chuck them in the bin in a couple of years. If they make it that far.

D

Really? Zondas are completely bomb proof IME. I've run them for years and not once have they fallen out of true, and not once have I had them serviced. And I'm 85kg.

errm, but the rims do wear out! I wore down mine in about 14 months of all weather riding. Probably about 6,000 miles (ish) took them down to ~0.7-1.0mm and tangibly concave. Mind you, wasn't sorry to see them go as I always found them far too harsh for my liking.

furiousd

Ok, so i thought i would update everyone. I sent the wheel back and new bearings & axle were put in, still some movement occurred. Campag UK have now agreed to replace the wheel under warranty. The service from my bike builder, agents and campag has been brilliant. Looking forward to getting it back on the bike.

furiousd

A further update. So the new rear wheel was replaced as mentioned above. I was told that the bearings will settle and they may need nipping up. This did happen and i did as instructed. However it has happened again and i am back where i was, unable to have a smooth running rear wheel (no gritty feeling) with no play. The suggestion is that because of my weight, power i put through a riding style that it mate be because they have an alloy axle which is softer than steel. Personally i don't see this. There are many people of here that have run Zonda's trouble and maintenance free that are heavier than me, i am currently 89kg.
This rear wheel has been out in the rain once, not washed with water and done about 600 miles. I am going to get the wheelset replaced but don't know what with. All good/better wheels look as if they have alloy axles, has anyone heard of this problem before?

Ugo, thanks for coming back to me earlier.
D

ugo.santalucia

Alloy axles were introduced to increase stiffness, not to reduce it. They have a wider section than steel ones and the stiffness of a tube is down to its section rather than the material it's made of.

furiousd

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Alloy axles were introduced to increase stiffness, not to reduce it. They have a wider section than steel ones and the stiffness of a tube is down to its section rather than the material it's made of.

So as per PM earlier then unlikely to be the fact that it is an alloy axle that i have these problem.

furiousd

OK, so the wheels are going to be changed again. Decided not to go with the Sirocco's for obvious reason. Can go with Zondas @ + £77 or Mavic Cosmic Elite @ = £100. I can't go hand built or anything like that as this is not possible. Going to look at some carbon clinchers for my Cervelo once i have sorted this.

I read a lot on here that the Zonda are good but after having problems with the Sirocco i am not convinced with Campag wheels. Never had Mavic before. I am 89/90kg, will be used all year round, most riding on this bike is 50+ and 100+ mile rides mixture of hill and flat. So out of these two what would you get?
D