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Lightweight carbon fiber wheel set?

FranktheTankFranktheTank Posts: 13
edited February 2016 in Road buying advice
Hello there,

I was wondering if you guys can help me out here. I'm looking for carbon fiber wheel sets, I'm curious what you guys have, would be my first cf wheel set tho, so I need some good advice.

I'm usually riding mountains, hills, sometimes some flat and long roads. Doesn't have to be an aero set! I'd prefer Clincher since I just don't wanna deal with that glueing my tire on there, but I'd consider riding a tubular rim, if price and weight are interesting. Braking would be interesting too, I heard a lot about problems with carbon fiber wheel sets....

I already looked into lightweight Gipfelsturm, but it's a bit too expensive for its weight, not really stable. Also heard their service they're looking for an investor, so not going to buy that one.

Ax Lightness currently doesn't offer any rims with clincher.

Tune doesn't offer any either, their skyline seems interesting, it's tubular tho. They sold their rims to Trekk and they built their Emondas with it.


Anybody any suggestions/advice?

Posts

  • 964cup964cup Posts: 1,362
    General advice remains to avoid carbon clinchers for mountain work, because of heat issues when descending. Opinions vary wildly on this one, though. Generally clinchers are about 300g heavier than the equivalent tubular, and almost all really lightweight wheels are tubs. I think the 2016 Mavic R-Sys SLR clincher (which is an alloy rim) is a 1300g wheelset, though.

    You can go as low as 775g for the wheelset, using the Extralite build with their hubs and the lightest AX Lightness (tubular) rims. How much do you want to spend? Enve 25s in a tubular on DT240s or Chris King will be around 1000g; 45s on CK are 1100g.
  • MatthewfalleMatthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    I use Carbonzone carbon tubulars with the tubs glued everywhere - up hill, down dale, and have never had a problem. Light, stiff, very reasonably priced, look pukka dope.

    Planet X carbon tubular 50s in the Italian mountains and ne'er a problem (even when descending with the Italian national team). Light, stiff, very reasonably priced, look pukka dope.

    But hey, there's a million and one opinions and stories out there, so lets watch this thread develop.
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • Thanks for the answers, and you are right, I'm trying to get some opinions on this topic.

    I did some more digging in other forums and I even found a reddit about some 77 Composites wheel sets. Never heard of them before, but their Roadrunner 25 Tubular wheel set weighs 760g!
    They seem to be pretty new on the market, at least I can't find a lot about them. But look what they write in their description of the wheel set.
    This wheel set also comes with 77 Composites patented and unique brake contact surface, which makes braking with carbon fiber safe again. Most carbon fiber wheel sets have the problem of bad braking performance and delamination. Since 77 Composites supervises its raw material manufacturer, we are able to mix our resin with a special additive, which prevents our carbon fiber wheel sets from delaminating.

    77 Composites brake contact surfaces withstand temperatures up to 416 °C ( 780,8 Fahrenheit ) without delaminating or losing performance.

    Anyone already had hands on a wheel set of them? Their site is called 77cycling.com


    And I haven't made up my mind about how much I wanna spend...
  • sungodsungod Posts: 14,375
    the 'brake contact surface' is not what gives a rim it's strength, if the underlying bulk resin fails at 200 c then the wheel is trashed, and if the tyre then blows off maybe you die

    doesn't matter who makes them, cf clincher rims in the mountains make no sense, get tubs or get alloy clinchers

    you say gipfelsturm are "not too stable", the profile is similar to umpteen alloy rims, these are not deep rims, it's not an issue - i ride my obermayers in windy conditions but avoid twisty descents if the wind is above 35-40-ish, compared to the obermayers the gipfelsturm are ultra stable

    the 77 rims aren't common, someone on ww has had some for a while and reports no issues, the nice thing is you can build a set with low weight but still be able to change a damaged spoke, whereas the one-piece construction of the lightweights means if you do manage to break one of the (incredibly strong) spokes you are stuffed (at least as far as lw are concerned, though independent cf repairers may be able to help)

    not heard of lw having financial issues, ax certainly did though supposed to be ok since the takeover, any small manufacturer is vulnerable, especially since the uci started turning the screws with it's 'approval' requirement

    another to consider is corima, they have some excellent wheels
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • 964cup964cup Posts: 1,362
    You've got quite a wide choice in clinchers at ca. 1400g (with the R-Sys SLR as an outlier) at an £600-£1600 price point (Mavic R-Sys, Fulcrum Racing Zero, Dura-Ace C24, Reynolds Attack, Fulcrum Racing Zero Carbon, Enve 25 on 240s etc). I'd buy the Mavics. I have the R-Sys SLR tubular and it's a great wheel; used it for my last Alps trip when the weather was awful.

    You have a similarly wide choice at around £1600-£2000 in carbon tubulars around the 1000-1200g mark. Vision TC24s at the bottom end (I have a set, hubs aren't great); Enve 25s; Enve 45s; Zipp 202s; Enve 3.4; Reynolds 46 etc etc. I have the Enve 45s on Chris King, about 1100g and excellent all-round wheels. I did pick up a set of DT Swiss RRC425F/RRC525R - 32mm aero-profile tubs on DTSwiss 180s that come in at about 960g, but I don't think they're available any more - and they tend to fall out of true in my experience (which is a pain with tubs and internal nipples).

    Then you're into the real exotica. I don't really see the point of Lightweights apart from the pose factor, 'cos they're not actually all that light for the money. At £2.5k you can build Enve 1.25 on Extralite, or AX Lightness (not the sub-200g rim, as they're £1200 *each*) on Mig/Mag or Extralite. Probably the best value, with unknown stiffness and reliability since I haven't bought mine yet, is the Extralite CyberClimb A24s at a claimed 775g for €2600. I'm either going to get some of these or buy a pair of (used) Enve 1.25s and rebuild them on Extralite (for an 875-ish gramme wheelset). Anything sub 1Kg will have to be tubular.

    The heat thing only really matters with clinchers; the issue being that the side wall of the wheel is under pressure from the tube - so if the resin softens, the rim can deform and the tyre blow off. This is fairly common, particularly when not especially light or talented cyclists (like us) overbrake on mountain descents. Tubs are under no pressure, and can run a thicker braking area in any case.
  • Well I can just say what I heard and that's that the truing of lw wheel sets isn't great and I heard that that they aren't stable, but it's good to hear otherwise, won't go for these anyways. A bit too expensive overall. What made you buy them? I mean, they are way more expensive than AX, Tune, 77C.

    And I never meant to say that their brake coating or whatever gives their rim strength, but if they have a patent and explicitly say they don't have problems because of that with their cf rims. Just interesting.
    I mean I get the idea that the underlying resin has to withstand that temperature, but correct me if I'm wrong, I find 416 c impressive. And I wouldn't say it only matters with clinchers, as far as I understand it, if the resin gets too hot it'll form bubbles and delaminate eventually. Why should that only be a problem of clinchers?

    Also have you noticed the similarity of 77 Composites 25 Tubular and Tunes Skyline? They almost look exactly the same!


    I took a look at Corima they start at 32mm height, anybody riding those?
  • sungodsungod Posts: 14,375
    to be clear, i wasn't having a pop at you, simply saying that marketing claim may have little relevance in practice

    with cf clinchers the rim profile is very different to a tub, and the brake track is on exactly the bit that has to retain the tyre against the inflation pressure, unlike a tub where the pressure is contained within the tyre and the rim profile offers more chance to dissipate heat

    whereas if that bit of a clincher reaches the glass transition temperature of the resin, it'll go soft, deform under pressure and the tyre may simply blow off

    you can still trash a tub rim with bad braking, but it's unlikely to be anything like as bad as what can happen to a clincher

    in general riding, a flat tub is far more controllable than a flat clincher, tubs are lighter and safer

    i got the lw as for a medium depth rim (47.5mm) they're light (933g), incredibly strong and very comfy, they'll never need re-truing and the customer service in europe is superb, without doubt the best wheels i've ever ridden, i'm fortunate enough to not have to worry about the money so i get to ride what i like, and i really like my obermayers

    so far i've only had two sets of lw wheels, both have been perfectly true, perhaps there were more issues in ye olde days? i've no idea, but if they were bad would they still be in business?

    the interweb can retain outdated/untrue comment a long time, and is well provisioned with people who parrot what they've read rather than what they've directly experienced

    what weight are you? unless you're really light i wouldn't even worry about rim depth up to 30-40mm, technique is what matters, i ride the obermayers in awful winds, you just need to be on your guard and understand the behaviour, if it's really windy i avoid high speed descents mainly because of the risk from traffic which limits the chance to take the best line on twisty roads and blind corners

    for info/opinion on the less common wheels have a look at http://www.rouesartisanales.com/" target="_blank (use google chrome translate option) and ww, for instance http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum ... lit=corima" target="_blank
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • No I do understand, I hope they'll soon update their website a bit and provide more information. But tbh, I'd rather buy a cf rim with a patented braking than one without, if it's affordable. Some guy at ww mentions their braking performance is pretty nice. It'd be my first cf wheel set, and the braking performance is something I read a lot about and I'm worried about it. I just imagine going downhill and not being able to brake or destroying the rim while doing so....

    Well also I'm not saying lw is bad, but that price is a bit too much for me. I was looking to get something around 2k and I weigh 161lb. It's always people talking, but I can't get hands on any of the wheel sets we are talking about, that's the reason I opened this thread.

    So I looked into ww and found a post saying Chris Froome was riding 77 Composites rims at the Tour de France on Mont Ventoux.
    And then I found a set of their tubular wheels with hubs I haven't even heard of, for 1099 €. I didn't really wanna go for tubular wheels, but you kind of convinced me when you said it's safer. I just never had to deal with glueing on tires and stuff like that before, but I guess there's always a first time to everything.

    At that price I could separately buy extralite hubs and still get awesome rims.
    http://77cycling.com/en/wheel-sets/road/rim-brake/4/28-roadrunner-25t-902g-warehouse-sale?c=21
  • sungodsungod Posts: 14,375
    tubs are are lot easier to live with than you might expect

    if you look on ww in the 'road->everything wheels' subforum you'll find three threads on the subject pinned at the top, if you have a read through you'll find all you need to know, plus much digression, there are guys posting there with decades experience of them, it's where i learned to get started with tubs

    cf braking is fine in the dry, usually the best technique is to break hard and late, if you need to control speed pulse the brakes rather than drag them, it's in the wet it can be iffy, not sure there's any rim/pad combination that solves that, you just learn to plan ahead and build in some extra stopping distance in the rain!

    fwiw i ride all weathers, with veloflex carbon/arenberg front/rear, current set have done c. 3,000km, front is barely worn, rear a little wear, they do cut more easily in the wet, and with all the wet weather i finally got a slow puncture last week but a bit of sealant fixed it

    hope all goes well with whatever you choose!
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • I wrote them an email before ordering ( 77 Composites or 77 Cycling ), they answered promptly and told me their website/shop is under construction, that's why I couldn't find much about them. They also mentioned something in there design which should prevent water from getting on the brake surface.

    Well I ordered that one set which is on sale, but even for the normal price I probably would have gone for it anyways. The guys at ww are talking good about that manufacturer and their rims. So I thought I'd give it a shot and see for myself.

    Thanks a lot for your input.
  • I am surprised this thread has not degenerated into a farce yet...
  • trek_dantrek_dan Posts: 1,366
    Not very subtle attempt at a sales pitch for 77 Composites?

    Similar thread in MTB
    viewtopic.php?f=20005&t=13059722
  • bompingtonbompington Posts: 7,674
    I am surprised this thread has not degenerated into a farce yet...
    Let me see if I can help....


    Your main problem with carbon fiber wheels is that you'll have to get them shipped from the States. Carbon fibre wheels, on the other hand, are quite common in the UK.
  • trek_dan wrote:
    Not very subtle attempt at a sales pitch for 77 Composites?

    Similar thread in MTB
    viewtopic.php?f=20005&t=13059722


    You got my point... :wink:
  • trek_dan wrote:
    Not very subtle attempt at a sales pitch for 77 Composites?

    Similar thread in MTB
    viewtopic.php?f=20005&t=13059722


    You got my point... :wink:

    lol, yeah they pay me like 100g to buy stuff from them. Born and raised in the US and I'm proud of it. :D

    I bought a really nice carbon fibER ROSE X-LITE TEAM-4100 Di2 and I'm not impressed by Mavic wheel sets. It never occurred to you that I simply like the idea of a newcomer? I wanted to buy clinchers and bought tubulars because sungod convinced me. Also I stumbled upon their mountain bike handle bar because they don't really have that many products and I saw the thread here, I even mentioned it and still d**** like you, conspiracy theorists, are all over it. I bet you also think every review in magazines is paid for,...
  • GrillGrill Posts: 5,610
    Oh bless. Shill is shilling his little socks off even after being called out. Adorable.

    Unless you plan on challenging Rich Bussell for the HC title super light wheels are pointless. Spend the money on a lap band instead.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • I'm defending myself, pointless i guess, you made up your mind and go with the flow. It's alright I can live with that, I have to deal with a lot of people like you... :wink:

    But back to topic:
    so you are saying, anybody who buys lightweight, ax, tune or any other super light parts, is an idiot? And mass inertia is just an illusion? :roll:
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,767
    And mass inertia is just an illusion? :roll:

    It's not an illusion. The only question is whether it matters or not.
  • bompingtonbompington Posts: 7,674
    Is mass inertia anything like mass hysteria?
  • GrillGrill Posts: 5,610
    I'm defending myself, pointless i guess, you made up your mind and go with the flow. It's alright I can live with that, I have to deal with a lot of people like you... :wink:

    But back to topic:
    so you are saying, anybody who buys lightweight, ax, tune or any other super light parts, is an idiot? And mass inertia is just an illusion? :roll:

    Yes. And keep in mind this is coming from someone who has/had RZR's, Lightweights, Enves, as well every manner of lightweight/expensive component you can think of. At our level you buy nice things because you want them, not because they make you faster. Ride your superlight bike and I'll ride my heavy censored TT bike and we'll see how much weight actually matters.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • alex222alex222 Posts: 598
    Grill wrote:

    Yes. And keep in mind this is coming from someone who has/had RZR's, Lightweights, Enves, as well every manner of lightweight/expensive component you can think of. At our level you buy nice things because you want them, not because they make you faster. Ride your superlight bike and I'll ride my heavy censored TT bike and we'll see how much weight actually matters.
    And then have a dance off.
  • 964cup964cup Posts: 1,362
    I think we should involve that bloke who was complaining that his mahoosive power (was it a whole 800w in the sprint?) twisted his Ti frame into a noodle. We can give him a gaspipe frame and steel rims and he can show us all up.

    I am at least as much of an idiot as Grill, and like him I recognise that using money as a substitute for talent only goes so far. Then again, while stronger clubmates may get to the cafe before me, my bike will always be lighter than theirs. So I win.
  • GrillGrill Posts: 5,610
    Alex222 wrote:
    Grill wrote:

    Yes. And keep in mind this is coming from someone who has/had RZR's, Lightweights, Enves, as well every manner of lightweight/expensive component you can think of. At our level you buy nice things because you want them, not because they make you faster. Ride your superlight bike and I'll ride my heavy censored TT bike and we'll see how much weight actually matters.
    And then have a dance off.

    Dude, I'm pretty boss at DDR. :mrgreen:
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • GrillGrill Posts: 5,610
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 79,667
    Grill wrote:
    Alex222 wrote:
    Grill wrote:

    Yes. And keep in mind this is coming from someone who has/had RZR's, Lightweights, Enves, as well every manner of lightweight/expensive component you can think of. At our level you buy nice things because you want them, not because they make you faster. Ride your superlight bike and I'll ride my heavy censored TT bike and we'll see how much weight actually matters.
    And then have a dance off.

    Dude, I'm pretty boss at DDR. :mrgreen:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF82Wue_VPE

    What about DDCR?
  • GrillGrill Posts: 5,610
    coriordan wrote:
    Grill wrote:
    Alex222 wrote:
    Grill wrote:

    Yes. And keep in mind this is coming from someone who has/had RZR's, Lightweights, Enves, as well every manner of lightweight/expensive component you can think of. At our level you buy nice things because you want them, not because they make you faster. Ride your superlight bike and I'll ride my heavy censored TT bike and we'll see how much weight actually matters.
    And then have a dance off.

    Dude, I'm pretty boss at DDR. :mrgreen:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF82Wue_VPE

    What about DDCR?

    Forgot about that one! Gonna session my old Robot Chicken DVD's tonight. 8)
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • Grill wrote:

    Double edged sword... instead of getting people interested in the product, he gets people put off by dodgy salesman techniques
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