Stages Power Meter ANT Only Drop Outs.

CRAIGO5000

As you'll know if you own one, it seems many suffer ANT drop outs with these power meters. I'm currently going through support very slowly at the moment with a single email response since Friday morning asking me for pictures of the battery cap. My issues are on a 2 week old Sram Rival Gen1 power meter.

It seems there is little info on the internet with regards to the fact that these power meters may not be dropping the whole signal as most complaints suggest, but infact are just dropping the broadcast of the ANT signal. I've tested mine myself by recording on various devices hooked up via Bluetooth and ANT+ and when a drop is found on the ANT recording devices, the bluetooth devices still record the power and cadence results as per normal.

Mine is running the latest firmware, has a new battery fitted, the o ring is perfect, the extremely cheap and brittle battery cap is fully intact (they should have adopted a Garmin approach to cap design here by tripling it's thinkness and making access to the battery by inserting a coin - it still would have cleared chain-stays). It is installed to torque at 50nm and zero calibration gives a tollerance of '892' every time.

The revised Gen2 units demonstrate they realised the issue and beefed up the battery cap to a small degree and perhaps even compresses the battery more firmly into the metal contacts? Has anyone got a Gen2 that and still having issues with dropping ANT connected signals?

I'm a bit stuck with where to go now. I've read their customer support was excellent but having a single email response in 5 days doesn't sound so excellent to me.

PK1

I had the same, it was caused by the Garmin. Try disabling Bluetooth and any unused sensors on you Garmin and see if it goes away.

dee4life2005

I've encountered the same in the past ... as well as it failing to calibrate after getting the "power meter detected" message. It would connect via bluetooth almost instantly using the stages iOS app.

I notice that they released an updated firmware in the last week or two, and the version notes indicate they've made some tweaks for ANT+ communications, part of which is to do with calibration. Prior to this firmware, if I switched wheelset (which didn't have one of the sensors that the garmin expected) it would either take minutes to calibrate ... or, just hang-up the device and calibration never completed.

I also had regular drop-outs while in use, and this appeared to be caused by a combination of the old style battery cover, and the battery contacts becoming flattened. After replacing with the new style battery covers that they sent free, to my surprise it's behaved itself during use for the last month and 14 rides.

keefsloan

I thought I was going mad until I read this. I had 3 ultegra stages in 18 months, all seemed to have problems and issues, and the dealer and stages US upgraded me to the new dura ace v2 and I've noticed this problem on every ride. I've learned to live with it because it's intermittent (and very short lived - comes back in seconds) but I can't believe I've been unlucky enough to have ANOTHER problem. Seems like it may not just be me. Upgraded the firmware today so hopefully this will sort it. Fingers crossed!!

CRAIGO5000

I think I've resolved the issue so it might be worth trying the same things with your units.

Firstly, support got back and told me my battery cap was of a batch that had faults where they were made slightly too large which mean that when put into the closed position, the actual cap pulls away the battery from the contacts. This then leads to randomised drop outs I've encountered. In my last 1 hour turbo session I had around 20 drop outs!

Support are now sending me free revised battery caps. Curiously on the existing bad cap, I refitted it BUT as a test, I locked it down to just under the half way point.
Since doing so I've had 2 turbo totalling 2.5 hours without a single ANT drop out - so the theory seems good. Excellent!

Stages also explained the importance of signal interference while training indoors and since I have a router with 2.4 and 5Ghz frequency, ANT+ also transmits on the 2.4Ghz frequency which can lead to signal issues when getting busy with Zwift, TrainerRoad, streaming music etc. The best way to reduce the amount of bleed from these frequencies is to change the WiFi channel to one that is less populated. I found a nice app for my Android phone called WiFi analyser. You can run it and see all the connection within range - nearly all of my neighbours and myself were all set to channel 11. Using this information, I changed my WiFi router channel for 2.4Ghz to channel 1. Having done this, I now see alot less swinging around in signal quality of the connected devices on TrainerRoad.

I certainly think my issue is resolved here and the cause was because of two minor issues causing a major issue. I'll still be analysing logs for drop outs but it seems to have worked!

Thanks to Stages for addressing them.

mankul

Hi Craig,

This still doesnt explain the issue of why BT broadcast was not affected. If BT broadcast is fine, then it is not because of the battery contacts.

I use Stages PM for Zwift and still use my Garmin 510 to get the readings. Both signal dropped so its not because of the ant+ doogle. Then I use Stages BT broadcast over to the Zwift phone app and at the same time, using my garmin 510. The signal dropped was seen on my garmin 510.

Both BT and Ant+ are using 2.4Ghz and all my wifi are at 5 Ghz.

I still think there is a problem with Stages AnT+ broadcast.

Getting dropped in a Zwift peleton because of this is frustrating. You have to put a bit of effort just to get back to the pack!

chrisw12

Same problem for me. On turbo, ant will drop out to a Garin 500, where as the bt signal to my iPhone was rock solid.

In a strange way this has been good for me. I no loner use my Garmin as my recording device instead using the iPhone to store rides. This for me is much simpler as I don't have to go through the hassle of hooking up my Garin etc. Zwift now doesn''t work properly so I'm 8 better off per month. Win win, thank you stages/Garmin.

CRAIGO5000

It could have been the distance of the ipad in relation to the crank? If you have 5Ghz WiFi, then you'll likely have a router that also provides 2.4Ghz. Have you shut down that frequency?

TrainerRoad has my stages at 26 hours into my latest battery and I've still not had a single dropout.

What is the date stamped inside your stages battery cap? Don't write off their advice until you've at least tried it.

dork_knight

When running my powertap on the indoor trainer I find that I have no issues, when I run the stages in the same location I would get signal issues (only 2.5m or so between the laptop and power meters) ~ I used a usb extension cable and popped it within two feet of the stages crank arm and no longer had an issue.

And as PK1 has said, turn off any sensors on the Garmin which are not required as the unit could hunt for the sensor every so many minutes and cause drop outs.

Alex99

CRAIGO5000 wrote:

I think I've resolved the issue so it might be worth trying the same things with your units.

Firstly, support got back and told me my battery cap was of a batch that had faults where they were made slightly too large which mean that when put into the closed position, the actual cap pulls away the battery from the contacts. This then leads to randomised drop outs I've encountered. In my last 1 hour turbo session I had around 20 drop outs!

Support are now sending me free revised battery caps. Curiously on the existing bad cap, I refitted it BUT as a test, I locked it down to just under the half way point.
Since doing so I've had 2 turbo totalling 2.5 hours without a single ANT drop out - so the theory seems good. Excellent!

Stages also explained the importance of signal interference while training indoors and since I have a router with 2.4 and 5Ghz frequency, ANT+ also transmits on the 2.4Ghz frequency which can lead to signal issues when getting busy with Zwift, TrainerRoad, streaming music etc. The best way to reduce the amount of bleed from these frequencies is to change the WiFi channel to one that is less populated. I found a nice app for my Android phone called WiFi analyser. You can run it and see all the connection within range - nearly all of my neighbours and myself were all set to channel 11. Using this information, I changed my WiFi router channel for 2.4Ghz to channel 1. Having done this, I now see alot less swinging around in signal quality of the connected devices on TrainerRoad.

I certainly think my issue is resolved here and the cause was because of two minor issues causing a major issue. I'll still be analysing logs for drop outs but it seems to have worked!

Thanks to Stages for addressing them.

I've had the 5700 Stages since December. I do get dropouts most rides, usually when I stop at traffic lights for example. i find that if I give the battery cover a little push, it comes back online. Do you reckon this could be the battery cover problem that you describe? Tried new battery, same issue.

CRAIGO5000

I'm pretty much 99% sure it will be that. The newer caps are far easier to lock up as they don't gouge the battery edges as they lock down. I even found with the dodgy old cap that it you simply lock it down only half way, that prevents the drop outs. I tested this indoors over a week on a turbo. This method might not be suitable for outdoor wet rides obviously.

Seriously, get a new cap and o ring set sent out. Im confident it's the fix.

Alex99

CRAIGO5000 wrote:

I'm pretty much 99% sure it will be that. The newer caps are far easier to lock up as they don't gouge the battery edges as they lock down. I even found with the dodgy old cap that it you simply lock it down only half way, that prevents the drop outs. I tested this indoors over a week on a turbo. This method might not be suitable for outdoor wet rides obviously.

Seriously, get a new cap and o ring set sent out. Im confident it's the fix.

OK, will open a ticket with Stages. Many thanks.

Alex99

Alex99 wrote:

CRAIGO5000 wrote:

I'm pretty much 99% sure it will be that. The newer caps are far easier to lock up as they don't gouge the battery edges as they lock down. I even found with the dodgy old cap that it you simply lock it down only half way, that prevents the drop outs. I tested this indoors over a week on a turbo. This method might not be suitable for outdoor wet rides obviously.

Seriously, get a new cap and o ring set sent out. Im confident it's the fix.

OK, will open a ticket with Stages. Many thanks.

Thought I would update on this...

I got a new battery cover from Stages (free, posted to me ) and it did not fix the drop out issue for me. So, I opened a support ticket and got passed onto Saddleback, Stages' UK support team who requested that I send the unit to them for testing. Well, within a week I received a spanking new 5800 unit which is installed and is working 100% so far. I'd heard that all power meters have their technical issues and that the choice is really about the standard of the support. Well, I'm buying Stages for my #2 power meter as soon as I have the dosh. I feel like a well appreciated customer.

dyrlac

While I agree Stages/Saddleback's support is pretty good... I am on my third gen2 (6800) and let's just say, I'm expecting to need to return this one as well once i've given it a few hundred kilometres to prove that it doesn't just need bedding in. Although the gen 1 7710 on my fixie is working fine, I may switch to pioneer for the next go round.

Alex99

Dyrlac wrote:

While I agree Stages/Saddleback's support is pretty good... I am on my third gen2 (6800) and let's just say, I'm expecting to need to return this one as well once i've given it a few hundred kilometres to prove that it doesn't just need bedding in. Although the gen 1 7710 on my fixie is working fine, I may switch to pioneer for the next go round.

What's the problem with your current one?

dyrlac

Intermittent (every 2-8 minutes) short (lasting 1-5s) ANT+ signal drop outs manifested by erroneous zero cadence and power output readings broadcast to my Garmin Edge 520. Admittedly less frequent than my last unit (every 30s, lasting about 30s), but suspiciously similar to the problems I had with my first unit, which got much worse over the course of 1000 km. It could just need bedding in, but I'm not optimistic.

As I mentioned in another thread, I went into this with my eyes open, but Stages was the solution that worked best for me. A pity as I *really* don't want to change my pedals, wheel or crankset.

Alex99

Dyrlac wrote:

Intermittent (every 2-8 minutes) short (lasting 1-5s) ANT+ signal drop outs manifested by erroneous zero cadence and power output readings broadcast to my Garmin Edge 520. Admittedly less frequent than my last unit (every 30s, lasting about 30s), but suspiciously similar to the problems I had with my first unit, which got much worse over the course of 1000 km. It could just need bedding in, but I'm not optimistic.

As I mentioned in another thread, I went into this with my eyes open, but Stages was the solution that worked best for me. A pity as I *really* don't want to change my pedals, wheel or crankset.

Sounds very frustrating. Good luck getting it sorted.

philbar72

firmware update your garmin, its a known issue when people leave Bluetooth on on their garmin ( if 520/1000) which causes issues with receipt of ANT+ data. firmware v 6 solves it as far as I can see.

dyrlac

philbar72 wrote:

firmware update your garmin, its a known issue when people leave Bluetooth on on their garmin ( if 520/1000) which causes issues with receipt of ANT+ data. firmware v 6 solves it as far as I can see.

I'm running v. 6 of the 520 firmware and have been throughout this saga. For a brief period Saddleback thought the problem was related to my use of a garmin-branded out front mount, which, combined with a 110mm stem and a pretty long reach, put this unit just out of range, but that seems (a) silly and (b) if true, unacceptable.

At the risk of jinxing it, however, last night and this morning's ride seemed ok. Only other variable is that I have refrained from applying the latest stages firmware (x.x.79) and am still on the prior version (again, unlike my last 2 units).

Omar Little

I'm also having the same issue (happens with a garmin 800, 520 and ive also tested it with a forerunner watch and its an even bigger problem with that). Raised a ticket but not at the replacement stage yet.

It only happens for a few seconds but it's annoying when you are trying to pace an effort or keep in a zone. It is also making my power figures on strava look really shit. Well that is my excuse anyway!

philbar72

its weird as once I reflashed my garmin to 6 (its a 520) and loaded the latest update on the stages, it worked fine. I would say though that I have all my Bluetooth devices switched off.

I also noticed power dropouts on my power2max as well on the other bike... but again that was when I ran the Bluetooth on both 520 and the phone again... no issues since I've switched both off. coincidence? not sure.

roland80

Hi there,

For a couple of years I ride with a Garmin Edge 800 and different power meters. I have a Power2Max powermeter and a Powertap Pro powermeter and never experienced any problems (except empty batteries) with them. As soon as I started to ride with the Stages (Ultegra 6800 version) I started to notice problems with starting-up the power meter and with drop out during the ride. This unreliability is very annoying especially if you want to use it during triathlon races as I do. Recently, I found out that the location of the Garmin Edge plays a role in those problems. On my aerobers it generates drop outs while on my frame (upper tube) it is almost flawless. Hence, my conclusion is that the ANT+ signal of the Stages is too weak for my Garmin Edge 800 to be detected (recall that with Power2Max and Powertap I experience no problems while those also communicate via ANT+), so I assume that is where the problem lies. Stages can also communicate via Bluetooth, so I think it is recommended to purchase a bike computer/wrist watch that supports also Bluetooth and not only ANT+ ... and perhaps then you might enjoy your Stages power meter more than I do right now ....

Regards,
Roland

gtom

I experienced multiple 1-2 seconds drop outs with my Stages (v2.0.79) and Garmin Edge 520 (v7.1). I've tried to remove all ConnectIQ data fields, applications from my active Training profile on Edge 520 and somehow this resolved all my drop out issues.

PK1

I just replaced my G2 as it was dropping power / cadence on a 520 with the out front mount. The replacement does the same, but less frequently. Moving it to a stem mount it works OK with no drops. Also a Garmin 1000 works fine on the out front mount. and my G1 works ok on the out front mount. I have decided to live with it as long it keeps working on the stem mount.

andy777

Im having the same problems. I've been through 6 stages crank arms. I had a gen 1 ultegra which was faulty and was replaced the replacement worked just fine apart from it ended up needing a new battery every other ride and eventually the housing wore out/ broke. Stages sent me a replacement gen 2 which had the ant+ drop outs and was unusable, they replaced it again! The new one gets the drop outs and its getting worse which is odd, its now unusable as a power meter. Edge 520 and latest stages firmware. It got worse after the firmware upgrade.
I also have a stages 105 which was faulty and got replaced. The replacement works just fine no dropouts. The only difference is that they are on different bikes. The 105 is on my old Allez and the ultra is on my Tarmac. Carbon frame/ metal frame?? Its odd that both ultra arms suffered the drop outs but both of the 105 arms did not??

Andy

GavH

I'm on my third Ultegra 6800 Stages PM since Jan 17. First two devoured a battery after every ride. I'm pretty sure the cold weather had more than a passing influence on this but each time Stages eventually asked me to send it to Saddleback UK and each time they replaced it. The third one doesn't have the same battery draining issues (but it's warm outside now!) and instead has chosen to upset me by dropping the ANT+ link to my Garmin 500 every now and again. Don't get me wrong, the previous PMs did this too, but this is unquestionably more frequent and far longer periods (as much as 30 secs) than I noticed with any of my other crank arms. Worse, it seems to happen now when I'm coasting along in Z2, but when I start climbing (ie just when I really WANT a power figure to guide my effort!). Having tried the Stages App alongside my Garmin whilst on a ride, I can say that via Bluetooth (to the App), the link doesn't drop when my Garmin (on ANT+) reads 0/---W, therefore I'm left to assume this is definitely an ANT+ issue and that the Stages PM still transmits the necessary data via Bluetooth. From what I can see, there is one of two possible causes here:
1 - Stages PM doesn't transmit on ANT+ very well.
2 - Garmin head units don't receive ANT+ very well.

In either case, I'm cutting out the ANT+ middle-man and ordering a new head unit (the 500 has done its time ) which uses Bluetooth to see if this cures the issue. If it doesn't, I'll be getting myself a different brand of PM.

JesseD

My stages has just gone back, it’s a gen2 Ultegra 6800 one and I suffered from power and cadence drop outs on a regular basis, sometimes together and sometimes independently of each other, the cadence drop outs can last up to 10-15 seconds where it will just show “0” or “-“, same for the power reading as well. When I download to Garmin Connect you can see where this happens. The battery life also seemed to be pretty dire too, had the PM since January and have gone through 3 batteries already (which is not as bad as some people admittedly) but each battery seems to be used up more quickly than the last?

I got it from my LBS who said that Stages advised them that a potential cause was an out front mount on the head unit which I thought was a bit of a cop out seeing as the out front mount puts the Garmin about 3-4 inches forward of mounting it on the stem, the guys at my LBS thought this was bull as well, my guess is the software is just crap. I will see what the next one is like and if I still get the issues I will refuse a 3rd and ask for a different brand from my LBS (they are pretty good and will look after me).

Part of me wishes I could have afforded a crank based PM like Power2Max or similar

Man Of Lard

JesseD wrote:

my guess is the software is just crap

I think it's the hardware - they have a compromised antenna design and are running it at a lower power than otherwise necessary to eke out extra battery life, but if it gets cold that doesn't matter anyway because you can measure it in minutes.

chrisw12

Jesse. Stages gen2 with Garmin 510 for me.

If I put the Garmin on the stem, 0 dropouts. If I put it on the bar, intermittent drop outs. If I use an out front mount, lots of dropouts.

For me the distance from Garmin to crank seems to be critical

Man Of Lard

You'll probably find its the obstruction caused by the bars not the distance. But not seemingly an issue for 4iiii or Pioneer...

trivial_poursuivant

mankul wrote:

Hi Craig,

This still doesnt explain the issue of why BT broadcast was not affected. If BT broadcast is fine, then it is not because of the battery contacts.

I use Stages PM for Zwift and still use my Garmin 510 to get the readings. Both signal dropped so its not because of the ant+ doogle. Then I use Stages BT broadcast over to the Zwift phone app and at the same time, using my garmin 510. The signal dropped was seen on my garmin 510.

Both BT and Ant+ are using 2.4Ghz and all my wifi are at 5 Ghz.

I still think there is a problem with Stages AnT+ broadcast.

Getting dropped in a Zwift peloton because of this is frustrating. You have to put a bit of effort just to get back to the pack!

I used to have a 510 when I first got my Stages and constantly had drop outs. I then upgraded to an 810 when they were cheap in Aldi and the same meter hardly ever drops the signal. No spikes or anomalies . I borrowed a friends 820 and again perfectly fine. Seems to me the 510 was the issue. It also used to throw out some weird hrm readings.