Turning my bike into a race machine.

JesseD

After long and protracted negotiations with the boss (future wife) about me purchasing a new bike to race on this year, it was decided (I lost the argument) that paying for our impending wedding in July and subsequent honeymoon was far more important than something new and shiny to race on(I didn’t stand a chance!), she has conceded however that I am allowed to make some changes to my current bike (within reason) to enable me to race on it this year and that I can buy a new bike in the sales next year - what a lucky boy I am.

I currently ride a Felt Z75 which has an aluminium frame with full carbon forks, full Shimano 105 5800 group set (compact chain set & 11-32 cassette), PRO stem, FSA Wing Pro Compact bars, Felt carbon seat post and a Fizik Arione saddle. The wheels are a mix of the standard felt wheelset (front) and a Shimano RS11 rear with cheap felt tyres on them.

I have had a bike fit and am very comfortable with my position on the bike and I did race on it last year and felt it a little spongy under efforts but I got by, I could actually feel it flexing when sprinting or under efforts, now this may have been the wheels or frame or combination of both, however I am going up a division this year and think I will need something a little stiffer and more responsive.

Now as I am not changing the actual bike and the accountant has limited the amount of cash I have to make any changes to make this a stiff race machine, what would you suggest? Which parts would you upgrade and to what? I will be doing this gradually as I will not be able to buy all the bits in one go and am happy with second-hand parts as well to keep costs down.

I will be doing undulating road races and crits mainly, I am a weekend warrior and weigh at my lightest around 13.5 stone, currently 14.5 stone and dropping.

I am thinking that the upgrades should be in this order as the gains will be greater,:

Race wheels and better tyres (would prefer carbon 40mm – 60mm wheels, maybe tubs, max budget £400 - £500)
12-25 or a 12-28 cassette
52/36 chain-set
Short cage rear mech (one I have at the moment is medium cage)
Narrower bars (I do feel the 44cms I have at present are too wide)
Stiffer stem???

Then as funds allow I am looking to buy a new set of training wheels, something like Fulcrum racing Quattro’s or Racing 3’s

Your thoughts

imposter2.0

The only critical component in that list would be a new cassette - 12-25 or similar. Although a nice pair of carbon tubs for race days only would also be nice.

Not sure if you will notice a stiffer stem. Bars? If it helps you feel more comfortable then yes. No particular benefit otherwise.

JesseD

I would like to do the wheels first as it will give the biggest bang for the buck, and funnily enough I have just picked the bike up from my LBS as they were trueing the rear wheel and checking the gears over for me and apparently I have worn out my chain, cassette and outer chainring in the 8 months I have had it, so those changes will be sooner than I had planned I think.

Regarding the bars and stem, I probably will get narrower bars, but will only change the stem if I can get one cheap to match.

Anonymous

what's your total budget?

Surely a supersix evo hi mod frame from Pauls makes the most sense if you want something super duper then swap the components over?

Otherwise, there is nothing your current bike has/doesn't have which is stopping you from winning a race.

I would get a narrower cassette (11-23 or 11-25) and if you're desperate, there are some brand new £130 quid 11 sp handbuilt wheels in the classifieds which look pretty damn tasty.

50mm carbon wheels are lovely to ride but won't really further your racing ambitions unless you spend all day TT'ing off the front to the finish.

JesseD

coriordan wrote:

what's your total budget?

Surely a supersix evo hi mod frame from Pauls makes the most sense if you want something super duper then swap the components over?

Otherwise, there is nothing your current bike has/doesn't have which is stopping you from winning a race.

I would get a narrower cassette (11-23 or 11-25) and if you're desperate, there are some brand new £130 quid 11 sp handbuilt wheels in the classifieds which look pretty damn tasty.

50mm carbon wheels are lovely to ride but won't really further your racing ambitions unless you spend all day TT'ing off the front to the finish.

Saw that and was very tempted but my total budget is going to be £600 - £700 in total over a couple of months, to spread the cost. And as I have the green light to get something I really want next year, I thought I may as well hold off a new frame until then, ideally I would like a Cervelo S3 as the geometry suits me but that will be a while off yet.

Wheels was thinking secondhand carbon tubs, maybe clinchers because well they look nice (yeah yeah I know) and you can get Fast Forward F6r's on ebay for around £450 inc tubs, but also not adverse to aluminium wheels either, just want something that will not flex when I am out of the saddle, I am a big lad and have found this problem with a lot of the wheels I have ridden, however have heard good things about Fulcrum Quattro's and Racing 3's.

Given the state of my drive train at the moment I will be changing that sooner rather than later, the teeth on the outer ring of my chainset have starter to go into a point and the chain is pretty stretched, and as I am changing the chain the cassette needs to be changed as well, luckily Shimano 5800 is not too expensive to replace.

Anonymous

I guess it depends how lofty your race ambitions are. I like to ride my bike hard and I would love to say fast, but that's a fairly loose interpretation of the word.

I have Zondas (basically FR 3s) 50mm full carbon clinchers and RS11s. I also try to keep my cycling on a shoestring and have always had just the one bike (with occasional overlaps). All bought well below RRP or even the best sale prices. In fact the RS11s were free!

My opinion would be that cheap 50mm clinchers will probably flex under your weight.
They are lovely to ride and do make a lovely sound with nice tyres, but you probably know in your heart of hearts that they won't make the difference between winning and losing a race. If you ride purely for the fun and winning isn't the be all and end all, then yes, absolutely go for it.

Otherwise, a bespoke set of wheels will most likely suit you for both racing and training and definitely won't flex. Put some nice tyres on (I use vittoria evo cx for dry and Michelin pro4 SC for wet) and you'll be sorted.

As for the drivechain - of course you want it to be running smoothly, but I wouldn't throw money at a 52/36 unless you are constantly running out of gears. A compact and 11-23 or 25 should be perfect for rolling courses with nice tight spacing. Hats off to you for racing an 11-32! Remember that 50-11 is a bigger gear than 53-12 (I think).

P.S I totally agree with full carbon. Alu brake tracks are abhorrent. 105 5800 callipers are pretty good enough to stop in most conditions.

I tend to just keep an eye on the classifieds here and of course eBay. On the classifieds there were brand new Zondas for sale for £150 last week and now some other handbuilts for £130. Not wheels but I just bought a brand new Pro Team jacket for £80 quid delivered off ebay. Bargains are there to be had!

If I were you I would ride the existing wheels into the ground through the wet weather and keep them for training and then to make your budget go further, a single pair of 'best wheels'. I'd go for Zondas based on price, but obviously carbon tubs if you must. Of course you could pocket the carbon tubs money and add to it for when the best bike comes around next year.

That is of course a pragmatic approach and what I did for the first 3 years of cycling, but it's hard to let the head prevail when there are readies to spend.

Anonymous

These are the wheels I mentioned. I'm sure someone can recommend if they are the correct build for your weight:

viewtopic.php?f=40091&t=13042958

giropaul

There are plenty of guys winning kernesses in Belgium on alloy bikes and alloy wheels. In fact, you hardly see deeper carbon wheels. They know it's about legs and bike handling.
Only the pros use expensive kit, it's expected in the contracts.

cycleclinic

Position is key. Be as aero as possible on the bike. It is mostly the rider that allows you to do well. Fancy kit is vanity, I am guilty of the latter.

wheels can make a difference but a modern set of wide medium depth alloy clinchers will give you most of the aero benefits anyway of a deeper carbon set. Those wheels are not the kind I mean by a modern set of wide medium depth rims. They will be O.K for the OP.

Stiffer stem. Do you currently have an issue. Narrower bars well go narrower if you care comfortable on them. To win you need to be fit not have a fancy bike. I have not won yet as last year I was not fit enough.

fenix

You need to turn yourself into the race machine - not the bike. You'll be riding in a bunch so the aerodynamic benefits won't matter a jot. If you're not following the wheels you'll be getting blown out of the back.

Amateur racing is full of crashes so don't race what you can't afford to replace.

What kind of training are you doing ? That's the key.

Vslowpace

wot he said. Going fast is overwhelmingly about the rider not the ride. Save your money for the honeymoon, shift the timber and train hard.

JesseD

Coriordan: My race ambitions are pretty high to be honest, whether my ability matches them is yet to be seen. I have put in a good winter, been consistent in my training, rested properly etc, think my average (apart from Christmas week) is around 220 - 250 miles a week. I am losing weight through diet and training and am definitely getting better, on the club rides I am getting closer to staying with the guys who can climb and on rolling rides can usually string everyone out. Sprinting is what I am good at though (not to blow my own trumpet) which is why the races I will be doing will mainly be undulating road races (after all I have to be there at the end to compete for the sprint right!) and crits/circuit races which are mainly flat and windy. I am moving up a division this year so am fully aware its going to be harder but I think with the fitness I have at the moment and with some fine tuning over the next month or so I will be ok.

Drive-chain – this unfortunately needs replacing in the next month or so, the outer chain-ring has worn pretty badly, the teeth are like sharks teeth which is why I am thinking of changing to a 52/36 as I have to change it anyway, the cost of a 105 outer ring is about £5 less than a complete new chain-set? The chain is fooked but it has done about 5000 miles (as has the chain-set in the last 6 months) and as I am changing the chain I will need to change the cassette too, hence the new gearing. Racing on a compact and 11-35 was fun, especially in crits, I never seemed to have the right gear as the jump at the back was usually too big between sprockets, definitely a more compact ratio would be better. In fact a club mate has a couple of different cassettes for racing and mixes them up to make his own ratios depending on the course, not sure if I can be bothered to do that but there must be something in it.

Giropaul: My head tells me that and I did well last year racing despite being overweight and unfit and racing on the exact setup I have at the moment, the reason for looking at deeper carbon wheels was more to do with thinking they may be stiffer and lighter than alloy (I used to have a set of 50mm fast forward F5C’s in tubs and those wheels were phenomenal but £1k to buy), but that said I don’t have that sort of disposable income to spend this year so it may have to be alloy.

Thecycleclinic: I am really happy with my position, I had a Rutel bikefit by someone who races at a high level who also runs a bike shop, he is well regarded and really knows his stuff, I felt out of place on the bike at first after the fit but now it feels really natural, comfortable and I can get pretty aero when I need to, plus it has also helped my control of the bike as I feel more planted on it. I am a bike fit convert now as it can (and to me has) made a world of difference to my ability on the bike.

I agree that fancy kit is a vanity (that’s cycling for you, hence Rapha et al), doesn’t stop you wanted it though.

The bike at the moment feels soft, that would be the best way of describing it, so I am looking to see what I can do to stiffen it up for as little money as possible, hence wheels, bars, stem, tyres etc. I am going to move to narrower bars as the ones I have at the moment feel too wide, they are 44cm c-c so I think 42cm c-c will feel better, if not then I will just put the old ones back on.

What wheels would you suggest, from the factory built ones and if I shop around I could get a set of Fulcrum racing zero’s (if you really shop about), but racing 3’s, Mavic Elites, Racing Quattros, Zondas all fall within the price bracket new. If I go second hand you can then start to get carbon wheels like a pair of Fast Forwards etc, however I am dubious about second hand wheels as I have been stung in the past. The other alternative is handbuilts, this again is a minefield and I would need advice here.

Anonymous

If you keep the compact then maybe get an 11-23 for flat races and 11-25 for rolling ones, or go 52/36 and 11-25 and 11-28. I'm sure Sheldon's gear calculator can help you work out what suits you best. Either way I totally agree that it sounds like the whole drivechain needs replacing!

As for wheels - Campag Eurus are bloody stiff, but also a bit more pricey.

JesseD

What about tyres, on my training wheels I have moved to 25mm as the rims are wider so can run lower pressures and really like how they feel.

I have always used GP4000s, but is there any better race rubber out there?

Campag Euros, not considered them to be honest, they are within budget (towards the top end of budget) but I am not 100% convinced on the G3 spoke pattern in the rear though.

That's a good idea for gearing, a couple of different cassettes would mean I should have all bases covered. 8)

Anonymous

Definitely.

I rate Michelin Pro4 Service Course above GP4000s. I've not used the Mk.IIs. I think they also cost less.

For very best I use Vittoria Open Corsa CX. They keep updating them, so you can get last season's version for about 25 quid each.

napoleond

All I'd really change are the cassette/rear mech.
Stem/bars wise, when I was racing on the track with big power efforts a deda zero 1 combo did absolutely fine for me (90kg, 1400w sprint) - about 30 quid for the pair.
Race and see how you get on with the current wheels.
It's always nice to have 'special' race wheels though. I like tubs for racing but if sticking to clincher the tyres wise I'd go with some Specialized S Works Turbo - they tested fastest on a recent Tour magazine round up. They do a wider width too if you want that. I'm on tubs otherwise that's what I'd be using. (I currently use either veloflex master or vittoria open corsa clinchers)
There's always people selling wheels cheaply. May be worth a look in the classifieds. (I listed some 50mm wheelsmith carbon tubs on pmp hubs - campag fit - for 150 quid but no buyers!)

surrey_commuter

"I can buy a new bike in the sales next year"

I would proceed on the assumption that this will not happen... and chose your upgrades accordingly

Anonymous

I'm really sorry to be the one to tell you this but I don't think this woman is right for you.

Maybe you should cancel the wedding and spend your money on the best bike you can afford and console yourself by riding it every day.

jrich

If I were you I'd get a decent second hand chainset on eBay - if you're running Shimano now then Ultegra or Dura Ace - the top end models will feel a fair bit stiffer than cheaper options and this should definitely help to sharpen things up when sprinting. You could look at an older specialised s works chainset or something by Cannondale as they make some excellent stiff lightweight sets - you might just have to keen an eye on eBay to see what comes up - but Ultergra should be more than up to the job. If you're reasonable quick and move up the ranks then you may as well get a 53/39 as this should be a fair bit cheaper and open up your options for second hand. Seeing as you've got the longer cage mech you can get a cheap 11-32 cassette to run for hillier races but most of the time you should be fine.

I'd look for an 11-26 cassette, the 11t ring makes a big difference to your top gear and you'll be glad of it if you've got a downhill sprint. You shouldn't need a 28t ring unless it's very hilly.

I wouldn't worry too much about stiffness from the bars and stem, the difference there is probably quite negligible, it will be more from the frame and wheels. You could look for a 42cm set of bars on eBay tho - go aluminium and not too lightweight - the closer together you hands the more aero you will be if you're contesting the sprint it could make the difference.

As for wheels that's a tricky one. I wouldn't bother with tubs because its just more money for tyres and faff. You dont have enough pennies to get a decent set of carbon clinchers and it's probably not worth it at this stage - like people say you're in the bunch most of the time so aero is irrelevant - unless you're gonna be planning a solo breakaway 3 miles out then there's no point. If I were you I'd speak to a decent builder and mention you're stiffness requirements and they can suggest something that will suit with enough spokes to keep it stiff. Many of the factory wheels just won't have a high enough spoke count for you because they're designed to be lightweight and for guys who are 10 or 11 stone. Some are also more of a pain to fix (e.g. fulcum racing zeros - they dont use any standard parts so when they're gone, they're gone!). If you have worn out the rims on your wheels by this time next year then with handbuilts you can just get them rebuilt with new rims at minimal expense (same applies if you break a wheel). They will fit nicely in budget too, depending on hubs.

Obviously get the best tyres you can - 25mm GP4000sii would be perfect. You won't find a better tyre for UK roads - minimal rolling resistance and good puncture protection and not too expensive. I ride them 3 seasons of the year.

jrich

Oh yeah - and keep on top of your chain wear and then you won't destroy the entire drive chain!! Change the chain when needed and the rings and cassette should give you many years of use.

Anonymous

TBH if you intend racing then you have to think that any races you enter will be Cat 4 to begin with. At this level if you are fit enough to win or collect points you could do that on a Halfords Carrera!

As mentioned - Don't race anything you cannot afford to replace - This is especially true in the lower races as some of the riding is shocking. Some people have no idea how to group ride or hold a line and that mean crashes.

A decent Alu framed bike with semi decent wheels and groupset will suffice without blowing a fortune on something new and less cost effective. Racing in Cat 4 and 3 does not require top end stuff. Off the shelf will do just fine.

JesseD

Surrey Commuter – I suspect you may be right, but I do live in hope.

Maliga Rosa – I have thought the same thing myself, but she is a good cook and nice to look at, and yes given the cost of a bl00dy wedding nowadays, I could have bought a top end boutique bike and a nice car to get me to races in comfort, plus had some left over, thank god I am not picking up the entire bill!

I am not on the mainland UK but in Jersey and we do not have the UK Cat system, the level I will be racing at is DIV2 which is akin to the top end of CAT 3/Lower end CAT 2, plan is to try and do well this year and move to DIV1 where I think I will get my ar5e kicked week in week out (I don’t see the point in being a big fish in a small pond), that said I have to do well this year first.

Jrich – That’s a good point about the chain set, will keep an eye out for an Ultegra 6800 one, I think DA will be too rich for me right now, my frame has a Hollowtech BB so the Cannondale and S-Works ones probably won’t fit? I think with regards to gearing, it will depend on what I can get cheaply, 105 cassettes are cheap at around £20 each and a 105 chain is about a tenner so I can mix and match I suppose.

I am not a fan or carbon bars, at least with alu, if you crash then generally they are ok, carbon would be more suspect IMO.

What would you recommend for wheels, something like Ultegra hubs on HPlusson Archetypes with decent spokes 24/28 or 28/32?

thomasmorris

12-25 cassette and 52-36 or 11-23 with 53-39 depending on the courses you race. I'd recommend praxis chainrings and kmc chains. 105 level cassette is all you need.

A reliable set of wheels such as shimano ultegra or zonda with some race tyres will be more than adequate...

Beyond that there is nothing you can buy which would give you a measurable advantage right up to national series races.

If you have cash to spend and want performance gains you're better spending it on:
1) things that will enable to train more and for longer (I.e. Winter kit, indoor trainer, bike fit (which you have already))
2) things that will allow you to train more efficiently (I.e, heart rate monitor, bike computer, power meter, training software, a coach, books on training)
3) things that might make your bike 'faster'.

If you're really looking to improve but have a limited budget then I'd well and truly exhaust options 1 and 2 before looking to number three. The other benefit of 1 and 2 is that they are transferable to your new bike... It could be a waste making very marginal or imperceptible improvements to a bike you'll replace next year.

However, cycling is a hobby and if you have the cash feel free to spend it on whatever you fancy. Don't let anyone tell you you're not good enough to ride 'X' level of component... Just don't expect 'X' level of component to make you faster is all.

JesseD

I am not a good climber, I am getting better but still cannot keep with the lighter boys so I think my gearing choice will be either 50/34 upfront with 11-23 for flat races and 12-25 for hilly stuff, or 52/36 and 12-25 and 12-28 which should cover all eventualities, it will depend on what chain-set I can get cheap. I was looking at 105 because they can be had for around £65 whereas the step up to Ultegra adds another £40+ onto the price. That’s unless anyone can recommend another chain-set for about £65 that will be suitable (must be black).

I looked at Ultegra wheels and what put me off is the low spoke count on them, wont they flex too much under my weight?

Regarding the points made they are all valid and worth consideration, especially the suggestion of coaching, it is something I have looked into and probably will go with as I have given up my gym membership the cost of that can be put towards the cost of a coach, we have a good one locally who used to ride for a UK based pro team, and a couple of the guys in my club use him and have had some good results from it. I have the rest of the stuff listed so the only other thing that I can get to improve my performance is a power meter which due to cost is out of budget at the moment.

So making me better aside whatever I can do to my bike to make it perform better/be fit for purpose is also worthy of consideration.

From the posts here so far the suggestions are in order of importance:

Tyres – Vittoria Open Corsa CX/Spesh S-Works Turbo/Conti GP400s ii or the like
Wheels – Carbon not needed unless I MUST have them, a good stiff pair of alu rims will do, probably best from a good builder who can tune them to my needs.
Chain-set – 105 will do, get an Ultegra or DA if I can as will be stiffer, a compact or a semi-compact will do as I an tune my gearing with a range of cassettes
Gearing – As I have to replace anyway, depending on what chain-set I get , go for a range of cassettes (12-25, 11-23, 11-28) to suit the terrain I am riding.
Bars – Alu, get what’s comfortable and is the right width for you.
Rear Mech – Not really needed to change but a short cage looks better and will accept a maximum of 28t sprockets
Stem – not really important, change if you want.

Anonymous

Looks damn good to me. Now time to go shopping! If you post in the "sticky" hand built wheels thread above I'm sure you will get plenty of advice for a suitable build.
Cycle clinic here, just riding along, mooglu, Harry Rowland are among a few places you can look

nicklong

Heed the advice above, but the over thing you've stated that looks like an upgrade would really help is the frame. If you think you can feel flex, that will always be in the back of your mind.

No need for a Super Six Hi mod, if go for a CAAD10 sale frame (£400), Zonda wheels (£250) and a racing cassette 11-25 or 23) and see how you fare.

I race a CAAD10 and a Felt AR3. Honestly, over 50 races I haven't been able to say "C50 wheels and an Aero frame have moved me x places up the peloton."

thomasmorris

But if he's 13.5 stone and racing competitively it's likely he's putting out a lot of watts... There is no guarantee a cheap carbon frame would flex less. For the price of a frame upgrade you could buy a power meter, which will certainly help training, maybe help pacing in races, and can be transferred to a new bike next year.

My ultegra wheels are stiffer than either set of Chinese 38mm Carbon clinchers which I raced on previously, and stiffer than askiums I've had and shimano 501s. But neither were flexy to the point that I thought it a disadvantage. In fact I only know they're flexier by pushing the rim latterly when in the frame... And maybe this then subconsciously enforced any perception I had whilst riding...

BUT... I am 62 kg and don't often put out more than 1000 watts... So make of that what you will.

105 crankset would be a good shout. Or you could just buy praxis rings for your existing cranks... But maybe 105 is the cheaper option there.

JesseD

Coriordan: that’s good advice, will head over there now and see what advice is already posted and possibly post if I cant get a definitive answer.

Nicklong: Unfortunately a new frame is out of scope at this point as I need to do this as cheaply as possible and I don’t seem to fit the CAAD10 geometry, they are great frames though! I do like the AR range mind, very nice bikes!

Thomasmorris: I don’t know about putting out a lot of watts (never had it measured) but seem to do well in sprints and being of a heavier ilk, I do stress wheels etc more than your usual cyclist, that said as a training wheel I have been impressed by the Shimano RS11’s, the rear which is usually the first to go for me has remained pretty true for the best past despite the miles I do and the weight I am, they just flex a little too much latterly under effort (you can hear them against the brake blocks and I don’t run mine that close).

Next year (hopefully) I will be in a better position to buy a nice bike and a carbon frame, nice group set and wheels are on the list, I would like a power meter too but that’s a whole new can of worms as which one do you go for – that’s another thread altogether.

The way I see it now is that I can turn my bike into a race machine for not a lot of money and make it much better than in its current guise:

Wheelset: £300 approx
Tyres: £50 approx
Tubes: £10
Chain-set: £65
Chain: £15
Cassette (x2): £45
Bars: £60 (minus whatever I sell my old ones for)
Rear Mech: £20
Cables: £30

Total £600 give or take and that’s all based on new prices

That would mean I can get a new lid (which I need) and a some new cycling shoes.

Anonymous

Rear mechs can be had for 15 quid from ebay (I did this recently as bent the old one), you get brand new ones as people replace with long cage and put the short one on ebay. Same with cassettes, used ones with only 100 miles will halve its price.

Bars: Look at Deda Zero 100 - very comfy shape and plenty stiff. £45 quid from most outlets.

Tyres - also look at Michelin Pro 4 Service Course - I run these and I would say they are nicer than GPs. Certainly more confidence inspiring in the corners. Note they measure up a smidge wide but easily fit my Kinesis which isn't renowned for large clearances. I think they are cheaper than GPs as well.

sim1515

I've got the same deal with my wife but have gone the other way. I've got an old Ribble winter frame with old 105 on it and my plan is to replace the frame instead. Crit races can be sketchy so I'm planning on an alloy frame so it won't crack if there's a crash so was thinking a second hand old skool TCR or CAAD 10 (or an Aithein maybe) and moving everything over. Old TCRs seem to be quite cheap although there aren't many in my size, CAAD 10s seem more popular but more expensive but both of those are meant to be stiff and I think ideal for crits.

I see that you have to replace your drivetrain and I do have an advantage of some carbon wheels but a new cheap stiff alu frame might be an idea?

cycleclinic

You don't have to spend much to have a bike fit for racing. to be honest if you are quick you'll be quick on your current steed. Conti GP4000's with latex tubes are about as good as it gets for a clincher.