Marketing nonsense

ttd

I've come across this comment today and I couldn't agree more. This is exactly what has been bothering me for a VERY LONG time:

"On the advent of disc brakes eTap comes with standard brakes. That’s quite curious (and I’m saying this as a rim brakes fan), isn’t it? Why is it so? Now we have 2 state-of-the-art Reds: electronic with (obsolete…?) rim brakes and hydraulic with (high-end…?) disc brakes…. Which Red is better, more PRO? Should we wait for the third one – eTap Hydro? So many questions…"

Both thumbs up and fanfares. The 3-rd iteration of Red should be called eTap Hydro Ultimate or something like that.

But there's MUCH more to this nonsensical "innovation" talk. Consider road frames and BB "standards": not so long ago we were all told that oversized tubes are the future (31.6 seat posts, massive top, head and downtubes etc.). Now we're seeing a quiet reversal - once again everything becomes thinner and seat posts are coming back to their original size, namely 27.2 (google this: TDU 2016 Tech: AG2R La Mondiale Focus Izalco Max with SRAM Red eTap).

BBs - to my astonishment (and delight) I've noticed that Pinarello Dogma F8 uses an Italian threaded BB. Good Lord, this is the only (together with English) BB "standard" which makes sense. In other words: the super, hiper, extra, stellar Dogma F8 DOES NOT use any press-fits or any other ridiculous "innovative and revolutionary" design. What a relief.

It's not my intention to make this post very long (although I'm a bit infuriated by all this "revolutionary" nonsense) but I really feel all these "historical and prestigious" companies are making a fool of us all.

Thank you.

SoSimple

WTF?

northcliff66

When etap comes with hydraulics discs and a 32 cassette I am buying five.

Stedman

[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19781095#p19781095]TTD[/url] wrote:

I've come across this comment today and I couldn't agree more. This is exactly what has been bothering me for a VERY LONG time:

"On the advent of disc brakes eTap comes with standard brakes. That’s quite curious (and I’m saying this as a rim brakes fan), isn’t it? Why is it so? Now we have 2 state-of-the-art Reds: electronic with (obsolete…?) rim brakes and hydraulic with (high-end…?) disc brakes…. Which Red is better, more PRO? Should we wait for the third one – eTap Hydro? So many questions…"

Both thumbs up and fanfares. The 3-rd iteration of Red should be called eTap Hydro Ultimate or something like that.

But there's MUCH more to this nonsensical "innovation" talk. Consider road frames and BB "standards": not so long ago we were all told that oversized tubes are the future (31.6 seat posts, massive top, head and downtubes etc.). Now we're seeing a quiet reversal - once again everything becomes thinner and seat posts are coming back to their original size, namely 27.2 (google this: TDU 2016 Tech: AG2R La Mondiale Focus Izalco Max with SRAM Red eTap).

BBs - to my astonishment (and delight) I've noticed that Pinarello Dogma F8 uses an Italian threaded BB. Good Lord, this is the only (together with English) BB "standard" which makes sense. In other words: the super, hiper, extra, stellar Dogma F8 DOES NOT use any press-fits or any other ridiculous "innovative and revolutionary" design. What a relief.

It's not my intention to make this post very long (although I'm a bit infuriated by all this "revolutionary" nonsense) but I really feel all these "historical and prestigious" companies are making a fool of us all.

Thank you.

With disks on road bikes being sold on 'modulation', surely with the technology for electronic gearing, would it not be better to wait for the fourth addition 'e-tap Hydro with ABS'!

On a serious note, I am in the process of putting together a second (fast) bike specifically for century+ events and I want this to be both light and reliable. So this will have titanium frame, aluminium rim wheels, cable operated gears and and good old fashioned caliper brakes.

Anonymous

SOME (as in not at all everyone) will want disc brakes and hydraulic brakes cos thats what the pros ride. But here is the thing, even with these available the pros won't necessarily use them in every race. I can see disc brakes been used in only half the races and even maybe only on certain stages. Some may use rim brakes for more aero benefits and use the discs for climbing days or even just for bad weather. So riding old school with mech gears and rim brakes will still be pro if thats what they ride - Well at least until Spartacus retires.

dnrc

Posting nonsense:

[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19781095#p19781095]TTD[/url] wrote:

I've come across this comment today and I couldn't agree more. This is exactly what has been bothering me for a VERY LONG time:

"On the advent of disc brakes eTap comes with standard brakes. That’s quite curious (and I’m saying this as a rim brakes fan), isn’t it? Why is it so? Now we have 2 state-of-the-art Reds: electronic with (obsolete…?) rim brakes and hydraulic with (high-end…?) disc brakes…. Which Red is better, more PRO? Should we wait for the third one – eTap Hydro? So many questions…"

Both thumbs up and fanfares. The 3-rd iteration of Red should be called eTap Hydro Ultimate or something like that.

But there's MUCH more to this nonsensical "innovation" talk. Consider road frames and BB "standards": not so long ago we were all told that oversized tubes are the future (31.6 seat posts, massive top, head and downtubes etc.). Now we're seeing a quiet reversal - once again everything becomes thinner and seat posts are coming back to their original size, namely 27.2 (google this: TDU 2016 Tech: AG2R La Mondiale Focus Izalco Max with SRAM Red eTap).

BBs - to my astonishment (and delight) I've noticed that Pinarello Dogma F8 uses an Italian threaded BB. Good Lord, this is the only (together with English) BB "standard" which makes sense. In other words: the super, hiper, extra, stellar Dogma F8 DOES NOT use any press-fits or any other ridiculous "innovative and revolutionary" design. What a relief.

It's not my intention to make this post very long (although I'm a bit infuriated by all this "revolutionary" nonsense) but I really feel all these "historical and prestigious" companies are making a fool of us all.

Thank you.

veronese68

[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19781095#p19781095]TTD[/url] wrote:

This is exactly what has been bothering me for a VERY LONG time:

VERY LONG? You are talking about products that have been available for how long?

onyourright

You must have been reading the wrong magazines, TTD. You’re supposed to be grateful for being drip-fed one incompatible ‘innovation’ after another. Ten-speed electric shifting was essential before 11-speed, just as it’s essential that as many electric groupsets as possible are sold with calliper rim brakes just as disc brakes are taking hold. Yours is not to reason why.

But speaking of why, I would love to hear why Pinarello reverted to a threaded bottom bracket with the Dogma F8. I have a feeling Team Sky had a say in that. Maybe it was entirely their request?

alan_sherman

It always has been though hasn't it? Some technical innovations are actually amazing (STIs for road), others are not (Press fit BB). The hard bit has always been working out what and when.

I hate that the groupsets went 11speed. However in that jump they finally arrived at a common spacing standard so wheels became interchangeable across manufacturers. Also I dislike the demise of triple chainsets, but maybe they will come back into fashion in time.

darkhairedlord

They cant be THAT bothered or they would be back...

chris_bass

[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19781876#p19781876]darkhairedlord[/url] wrote:

They cant be THAT bothered or they would be back...

They'll be back, they are just rushing to the shops to buy this new fangled margarine that apparently is so indistinguishable from butter you wont believe it.

ttd

SoSimple, it's not so simple, I'm afraid. BTW, you share your thoughts in a very "innovative and revolutionary" way. Is it a new standard?

I'm not against disc brakes on road bikes, what I'm saying is there's no consistency. What we are seeing now (and you cannot deny) is: ultra-aero (Venge ViAS , Madone, etc.) VS disc brakes (yet to come). And here I 100% agree with Maglia Rosa's andOnYourRight's comments.

Coming back to marketing nonsense:

- now we have myriads of BB standards but Pinarello FP8 uses a very good design of ITA threaded (It's so simple, SoSimple). ITA/ENG are not inferior to any PF designs at all. This is a fact, dnrc, not posting nonsense. Maybe there are more top-end bikes with ITA/ENG threaded? And OnYouRight may be entirely correct saying this could be the team's request. It's also worth remembering Sky is a hell of a team, wheteher you like it or not (I do not).

- road bike tubes are getting thinner and thinner - this is also a fact: http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/article/2016-bikes-of-the-worldtour-gallery-46164/. No extremely massive BB areas any more, brawny seatstays and forks. Even seat posts are coming back to 27.2.

- there still are (or: are coming back) bikes with external routing. This amazed me as dated but I understand the logic behind it (check out Focus bikes for example but there are other makes such as Cannondale, Trek, Rapide, Van Nicholas, Moots etc.). And it's not dated at all, it's... PRO (Focus gives an explanation)

- there still exist "normal", simple hubs wit no fancy designs (American Classic, FFWD, Gipiemme, EDCO, Chris King etc.)

- and what about monolink saddles? Don't you think they're just a gimmick? (personally I do)


Finally, I support electronic drivetrains wholeheartedly. I am waiting for Campagnolo EPS wireless impatiently! I DO think wireless shifting is the future. I've never been against "innovative" designs and ideas (in fact I own such a bike). And disc brakes may prove a great benefit. I just have an impression that sometimes all those "revolutionary" designs are not so revolutionary and good, old designs are quietly coming back as simple, reliable and trustworthy solutions.

Alex99

There is a whole mixture of marketing bull, and genuine advancement all mixed together. The whole BB thing, seems to be firmly in the marketing bull category. The press fit thing seems to be easier for manufacturers, and reliability goes down which is good for those selling BB's. Bad for the consumer.

Servicability is important for pro teams, hence Sky's choice to use 'old' threaded HTII bottom brackets for years now. There is abviously no performance advantage to doing otherwise. Presumably, the same with external cables. Hydraulic lines, though, put em internal?

I think electronic gears, and disk brakes are good things. e-tap I guess is expensive, and the top groupset has to be used by the pro's to justify the price and make it desirable. I guess the non-disk choice was based on that.

pilot_pete

I'm with Alex. I've just built a best bike with hydraulic disks and di2. It is sublime. Shifting is impeccable and so much better than my (well adjusted) Campagnolo 10speed Chorus/ Centaur mix which I have tweeked again and again over the years and it still plays up.

The braking is superb and I mainly went disk to to prevent carbon rims delaminating on long twisty descents...

PP

Matthewfalle

OnYourRight wrote:

I have a feeling Team Sky had a say in that. Maybe it was entirely their request?

What gives you that feeling may I ask?

onyourright

Because Sky’s equipment choices are engineering driven and for years they have had a big say in the development of the bicycles they use (in cooperation with Jaguar), clothing (Rapha), etc.

But to be honest I don’t know what other pro teams ride. Maybe insisting on threaded bottom brackets is not unusual?

Rodrego Hernandez

OnYourRight wrote:

You must have been reading the wrong magazines, TTD. You’re supposed to be grateful for being drip-fed one incompatible ‘innovation’ after another. Ten-speed electric shifting was essential before 11-speed, just as it’s essential that as many electric groupsets as possible are sold with calliper rim brakes just as disc brakes are taking hold. Yours is not to reason why.

But speaking of why, I would love to hear why Pinarello reverted to a threaded bottom bracket with the Dogma F8. I have a feeling Team Sky had a say in that. Maybe it was entirely their request?

All the dogmas have a threaded bottom bracket

ttd

"Colnago gets the Concept with a new modern aero road bike."

We read:

"It seems that wind-tunnel tests from a number of brands have shown that there isn’t so much to be gained by more sheltered brake locations."


So I still stick to mu guns on the marketing nonsense matter. By the way, my brand new road machine has 27.2 seatpost which is supposedly LESS stiff than the new 31.6 "standard"... :-)

fenix

Re the seatpost - if the bike is stiffer then you may need a less stiff post to take the sting out of the ride.

First.Aspect

I am outraged.

trailflow

TTD wrote:

I've come across this comment today and I couldn't agree more. This is exactly what has been bothering me for a VERY LONG time:

"On the advent of disc brakes eTap comes with standard brakes. That’s quite curious (and I’m saying this as a rim brakes fan), isn’t it? Why is it so? Now we have 2 state-of-the-art Reds: electronic with (obsolete…?) rim brakes and hydraulic with (high-end…?) disc brakes…. Which Red is better, more PRO? Should we wait for the third one – eTap Hydro? So many questions…"

Post a link to where you quoted from.

Why would rim brakes become obsolete as soon as disks are released ? Who is saying that ?

eTap comes with rim brakes as an option because there are far more rim braked bikes currently out there than disk braked bikes. It's not curious. It makes total sense. That's a massive number of potential upgraders and revenue. It would be company suicide to cease rim brake production and bet all your options on disk brakes. Singling out a huge number of customers.

If they did, another company will just fill that void. Rim brakes will never stop selling.There will always be a demand because of the sheer number of frames out there only compatible with rim brakes. People want options and variety. Not be forced into limited choices. Sram know that. Fresh new products keep people interested. That's why they released alot of groupsets over the last few years, and all available in pressfit and GXP - eTAP, RED22, Force 1, Force CX1, Force22, Rival 1 ,Rival22, Apex 1, Apex, S-Series, XX1 Eagle, XX1, XX, X01 Eagle, X01, X0, EX1, X1, GX , NX.
It gives them an edge over the more conservative brands like Shimano and Campagnolo.

So you have more options, are they a bad thing ?

It doesn't matter which option is more ''pro''. Neither is the answer. Which ever option is suited to the riders want/need/budget/desire/style/advantage is the correct option.

Some brands went 31.6 Some didn't
some brands went press fit. Some didn't
Some brakes will have disks. Some wont.
Some people believe the marketing claims. Some dont.

New standards that gain popularity also become trends. And companies copy others. If they stagnate,they will be perceived not to be relevant and they loose marketshare. Alot of manufacturers were pressured into using new standards.

Ultimately its up to you to decide how beneficial they are.

fat daddy

Marketing is important for the riders that are more interested in bike porn and fashion.

The types that want the super aero carbon wheels to shave 1mph of their top speed ..... but at the same time with the latest disk brakes strapped to the side of the hub (reducing their top speed aero by 2mph)

Alex99

fat daddy wrote:

Marketing is important for the riders that are more interested in bike porn and fashion.

The types that want the super aero carbon wheels to shave 1mph of their top speed ..... but at the same time with the latest disk brakes strapped to the side of the hub (reducing their top speed aero by 2mph)

You've hit on two things that I wouldn't call marketing BS offering genuine advantage for some people: aerodynamics and better brakes.

If you're already fairly fit, buying a genuine 1 MPH is very significant. A genuine 1 MPH gain represents a whole lot of training. I'm planning to train my butt off through to spring. If I emerge from the winter 1 MPH faster, it will likely be enough to let me go up a racing category. I might end up buy some of that speed aswell.