Road bike with aero wheels vs aero bike with normal wheels
Comments
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No, all I'm saying is that buy kit because you want it, not because you want to impress your friends with BS marketing hype.
Anyway, PB chasing on Strava is stupid. All you have to do is ride the same segment again with a stronger tailwind or greater float and you've done it even though it took less effort and you haven't actually improved.
Say what you like about segment chasing but if it encourages more riding and a feeling of accomplishment for the rider its only a good thing. Even if its for personal pb's it means you end up riding more. If you don't race its at least a goal to set yourself to keep motivated in the not so pleasant months
None of that requires aero kit though, which is what I think Grill is getting at...
Well to me its looks like he is stating that pb chasing is stupid full stop. If he meant any other way then it still is up to whoever to ride what they want. Its their bike. Their rules0 -
No, all I'm saying is that buy kit because you want it, not because you want to impress your friends with BS marketing hype.
Anyway, PB chasing on Strava is stupid. All you have to do is ride the same segment again with a stronger tailwind or greater float and you've done it even though it took less effort and you haven't actually improved.
Say what you like about segment chasing but if it encourages more riding and a feeling of accomplishment for the rider its only a good thing. Even if its for personal pb's it means you end up riding more. If you don't race its at least a goal to set yourself to keep motivated in the not so pleasant months
None of that requires aero kit though, which is what I think Grill is getting at...
Well to me its looks like he is stating that pb chasing is stupid full stop. If he meant any other way then it still is up to whoever to ride what they want. Its their bike. Their rules
Except if you look above I clearly say 'PB chasing on Strava is stupid'. Riding for yourself is fine, just like buying kit because it make you happy is fine.English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg0 -
Why is PB chasing on Strava specifically "stupid"?0
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As I said above:All you have to do is ride the same segment again with a stronger tailwind or greater float and you've done it even though it took less effort and you haven't actually improved.
You could also ride it in a group or even in a car to get a PB.English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg0 -
As I said above:All you have to do is ride the same segment again with a stronger tailwind or greater float and you've done it even though it took less effort and you haven't actually improved.
You could also ride it in a group or even in a car to get a PB.
But if you're not riding in a group (or a car), and bear in mind particularly strong tailwinds (sorry I'm not sure what you mean by "float"), and you like to see your times improve, I don't really see how it's stupid. Strava seems to divide opinion but it's really just an advanced stopwatch in this context.0 -
The leaderboards are based upon people who have ridden the segment at the right time. FFS I have KOMs. There is no planet where I should be first on any segment, but I happened to ride those segments on the right days. What does it mean to my cycling? Nothing. I'm much stronger than I was 3 years when I got them, but I can't come close if the wind, float (push from traffic flow), and traffic lights aren't playing ball.
My best TT's aren't my PB's, in fact they're not close. You know when you have a good ride, who cares if it's reflected on Strava?English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg0 -
No, all I'm saying is that buy kit because you want it, not because you want to impress your friends with BS marketing hype.
Anyway, PB chasing on Strava is stupid. All you have to do is ride the same segment again with a stronger tailwind or greater float and you've done it even though it took less effort and you haven't actually improved.
Isn't it true that PB's on many TT courses are also achieved with the help of favorable wind direction ?
Also, Strava PB chasing is awfully popular for something that you call a stupid pursuit. Are you not maybe being a bit elitist ? Not everybody aspires to be a serious time trialist but is that any reason to look down on their personal efforts and aspirations ?0 -
Bikeradar road buying advice seems to be summarised in some fairly passive-aggresive "you don't need to buy that unless you're riding for a pro team" responses to normal queries. Not everyone needs 32 spoke touring wheels.
In answer to the OP,
A) aero wheels on a normal frame is the way to go.
If you're a confident rider then don't listen too much to crosswind horror stories, most modern wide rims (up to 50mm) are fairly easy to control and they will make you a better bike handler.
C) Aero rims (and frames) actually give the biggest comparative improvement versus shallow rims and round tube frames when the wind blows at an angle (yaw). Into head/tailwinds, there is an advantage but it isn't as marked.
The based upon a number of tunnel tests (Felt, Cervelo, Tour Mag) the Venge is one of the least aero aero-road frames on the market (ViAS excluded). I'd go with the SS Evo.0 -
PB's in TT's are achieved by riding the right course on the right day. There are many that like to ride such courses to set their PB's (it's pretty much necessary these days to qualify for Nationals), but if you ask testers about their proudest rides, you'll probably hear about how they suffered for an hour on a Hardrider's event, or gritted their teeth for the last 4 hours of a 12hr. Of course, for many more it's all about winning the event in which case there are so many factors at play that a PB is a bonus but hardly the point.
I think that evaluating yourself based on a number that may as well be picked at random is stupid. If that makes me elitist then so be it. I'm comfortable in the fact that I bought my road bike and road wheels because I wanted them, not in some vain attempt to win the Strava lottery.
So yeah, if you or OP wants aero wheels or frame then go for it (with the wheels of course being the more important part of the equation), just don't go in thinking it will magically elevate your cycling.English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg0 -
Also, Strava PB chasing is awfully popular for something that you call a stupid pursuit.
Means nothing. The Daily Mail Online is the most visited english language news site in the world. That's a stupid pursuit as well.0 -
I think that evaluating yourself based on a number that may as well be picked at random is stupid. If that makes me elitist then so be it. I'm comfortable in the fact that I bought my road bike and road wheels because I wanted them, not in some vain attempt to win the Strava lottery.
I think you're conflating KOM chasing and PB chasing. Using Strava to assess your improvement as a rider, or the effects of an equipment change, is far from perfect but it's not a lottery.0 -
If you're not riding with power it is.English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg0
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If the title of this forum or even thread had in them the term "TT" Grill then might have a point relevant to the topic, the OP, and the other contributors.0
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If the title of this forum or even thread had in them the term "TT" Grill then might have a point relevant to the topic, the OP, and the other contributors.
Expound.English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg0 -
Is aero the new carbon rant point?
Am trying a pretty light aero bike/wheels this year so will be interesting to see how it compares to a lighter non aero.
Aero bike with non aero wheels seems v odd to me.
Bit like a 911 with four emergency wheels on
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Grill wrote:You know when you have a good ride, who cares if it's reflected on Strava?If you're not riding with power it is.
These seem contradictory to me - unless in the first quote you mean you know you have a good ride because your power meter tells you.0 -
That was in response to this:I think you're conflating KOM chasing and PB chasing. Using Strava to assess your improvement as a rider, or the effects of an equipment change, is far from perfect but it's not a lottery.
Without power, there is no way to know if your ride was indeed better or if your equipment is faster (and even this would required a far more controlled environment to use the Chung Method).
Point is, if you felt good on your ride do you really need a leaderboard for validation? What if it shows your ride was slower than one that felt terrible? Wouldn't that just crap you out?English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg0 -
That was in response to this:I think you're conflating KOM chasing and PB chasing. Using Strava to assess your improvement as a rider, or the effects of an equipment change, is far from perfect but it's not a lottery.
Without power, there is no way to know if your ride was indeed better or if your equipment is faster (and even this would required a far more controlled environment to use the Chung Method).
Point is, if you felt good on your ride do you really need a leaderboard for validation? What if it shows your ride was slower than one that felt terrible? Wouldn't that just crap you out?
I'm sorry to have dragged this so far off topic.
Grill - we're probably just going to have to agree to disagree. I, like lots of people, enjoy getting to the end of a ride and seeing what times I've posted on various local segments I've ridden. I'm not hung up on getting a KOM (some chance!). I'm not going to lose any sleep over failing to beat a PB up my local hill. And generally I have some sense of how I've ridden on a given day. But your claim that measuring my rides against each other using Strava is "stupid" and a "lottery" is massively stretching the point that there are lots of factors involved that are unaccounted for. Your point about validation could be extrapolated out to cover any other circumstance, be it a local TT or the Olympics.
OP - my vote goes for road bike with aero wheels. Get it, ride it and enjoy it whichever way you blinking well like!0 -
To be really honest. Who gives a flying f@ck? the OP never suggested he wanted an aero bike for any other reason than going as fast as he can. Never mentioned Strava. Never mentioned TTing. Never mentioned power meters. He just wants to go fast. Now, if he wants to go as fast as he can regardless of the whys or hows who really gives a sh!t other than him?
If he wants a bike that looks fast and he just wants to sprint downhill with the wind up his ar5e I really couldnt care less. The question asked was would it be better on an aero frame with normal wheels or vice versa. Aero anything only starts to make a difference well past 20mph and the benefits are still only marginal. So it really comes down to what looks best. Deep rim wheels can make any bike look cooler. and any aero bike can look dull with shallow crap wheels. But, A decent semi aero frame with a decent set of 30mm semi aero wheels can be both without heading into the extreme prices asked for for premium wheels or frames. You get the slight benefit if and when you get up to a speed to make a difference and you get a cool looking bike. So why not just get a Venge with some 30mm clinchers? Job done.0 -
If the title of this forum or even thread had in them the term "TT" Grill then might have a point relevant to the topic, the OP, and the other contributors.
Expound.
Gladly . It doesn't, ergo you don't .0 -
Wilf - In those events (TT's, Olympics) you're racing others, so the only the result on the day matters (for those that compare past times, you better believe we know power, air pressure, wind speed/direction, etc.). Measuring Strava rides against each other is as scientific as comparing Jeopardy scores.
Maglia - Thanks for paraphrasing most of what I said, but there's no need to get riled up by an ancillary conversation.
MikeBrew - So lazy mate. If you can't actually support your contention then why present it?English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg0 -
Wilf - In those events (TT's, Olympics) you're racing others, so the only the result on the day matters (for those that compare past times, you better believe we know power, air pressure, wind speed/direction, etc.). Measuring Strava rides against each other is as scientific as comparing Jeopardy scores.
Maglia - Thanks for paraphrasing most of what I said, but there's no need to get riled up by an ancillary conversation.
MikeBrew - So lazy mate. If you can't actually support your contention then why present it?
Im not getting riled up, I actually wrote that with a smile on my face because of the preposterous nature of where the thread has lead. Why you getting so defensive?
BTW, Strava can give you an idea of performance but as with all data you have to know how to interpret it correctly. If I do the same segment on strava 20 - 30 times over a few weeks and I see a shortening of the times even with the odd anomaly brought about by wind, air pressure etc I know I am improving. If I do these rides on the same bike/setup/tyre pressure etc then I still get a very good idea of where I am improving without power. Power gets more scientific but it is not the be all and end all. Pro cyclists have been to use other methods to gauge performance well before the invention of power meters. Heart rate zones can still give a good idea of performance over a period of time. Even with a power meter you cannot say 1 ride shows any gains or improvement. How hard you pushed and for how long before will effect a power reading snap shot of something short like a Strava segment. But the data will only show what you record and not what may effect it before.0 -
MikeBrew- I don't think you're lazy, you just haven't yet been able to concoct a half-rational response.
Magila- You bring up valid points. A PM is worthless if you don't know what to do with it. Sure TSS, CTl, diet, sleep, etc. will all affect the outcome, but watts are watts and it's a constant in a very difficult to control environment. You can make educated guesses if something is improving your time based on repetition, but it's still won't give more than a vague idea of what works (big data + bad data = big bad data).
Again, if you use Strava as your recording/training tool then that's fine. I do. My point is, and has been, buy what makes you happy. If it makes you happy there's no need to rationalise it further. It should also be mentioned that not all aero wheels are created equal, so the ones that make me happy are those that not only look good, but also ride well (so not Lightweight).English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg0 -
So Grill is rational and anyone who uses Strava isn't .Wow.0
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Grill, are you fast enough to regularly win a lot of TTs? If so, I can understand all the TT gear. If not, why bother having TT aero gear yourself? ...using your logic.
As far as this thread goes, I couldn't care what anyone wants to buy, there are stacks of trundlers on aero wheels, it's past critical mass, they are everywhere.0 -
so the ones that make me happy are those that not only look good, but also ride well (so not Lightweight).
What's wrong with Lightweights?0 -
So Grill is rational and anyone who uses Strava isn't .Wow.
Not what I said, but judging by your other posts you haven't grasped my point, so hardly surprising.Grill, are you fast enough to regularly win a lot of TTs? If so, I can understand all the TT gear. If not, why bother having TT aero gear yourself? ...using your logic.
I don't win but I punch well above my weight. Plus the idea that talking part/competing is only worthwhile if you win is childish. I genuinely love the sport, so I do everything in my power to improve (and no, Strava leaderboarding isn't a sport) . As I said in my first post aero kit is beneficial to certain riders, testers being the obvious. The fact that I am ridiculously aero on my TT bike (I go for regular testing and adjust position and kit accordingly) is what allows me to compete with those that have access to 100w more, but this is discipline specific. Short of TT's and the track, there isn't any consideration for aeroness on any of my other bikes or with general riding (training TT bike is for positional work, not to post a result anywhere).so the ones that make me happy are those that not only look good, but also ride well (so not Lightweight).
What's wrong with Lightweights?
If I'm paying for a name I'd rather it be one that doesn't use a 15 year old design and handles well in crosswinds. Also not a fan of factory wheels, which is why I had a set of prettier (the real reason) colour matched Enves built up instead. I do like my Autobahn though,
Going back to the OP's question, I just noticed he has a cross bike with disc brakes. Based upon that I take back my original recommendation of wheels and would say he's better off going with an aero bike as the options for actual fast disc compatible wheels are few and quite expensive (not to mention then extra 100g+ of drag from the discs).English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg0 -
What's wrong with Lightweights?If I'm paying for a name I'd rather it be one that doesn't use a 15 year old design and handles well in crosswinds. Also not a fan of factory wheels, which is why I had a set of prettier (the real reason) colour matched Enves built up instead. I do like my Autobahn though,
Have you ridden a pair of Meilensteins?
The concept of a full carbon (1 piece) wheel is not news of the day, but Lightweight have refined the design subtly over the years. Although Mavic has tried to copy the design with the Ultimates, they couldn't achieve the result, and were obliged to use screw in spokes on the rear.
'If it ain't broke don't fix it' springs to mind. They are certainly the stiffest, lightest wheels I've ever ridden.
Anyone can make a carbon rim and lace it to a nice hub, but as far as I know, no one else can make a full carbon pair of wheels.
Much is made of rim shape and depth, each brand claiming to out-aero the other, picking their best yaw result, and proclaiming victory. The truth is somewhat more murky.
I didn't get mine (30% off in a sale) for aero gains, but for all round riding, climbing and racing. Anything aero is a bonus that I'm happy to take though. Crosswinds have never troubled me, and I ride these all year round.0 -
Ridden the Gen 3. They were poor when compared to my RZR46 Teams (which are of similar yet more intricate construction), especially when it came to windy conditions. They didn't feel that robust either as I tank through most everything, but I reckon the regular RZR 46 would have been similar on this front.
In terms of actual aero credentials of Lightweights, there are none. They're at best an okay wheel regardless of yaw (they perform best at low yaw, but other narrow wheels like the H3 and non-FC 404/808 take them to town). Disc is good though, very good (but still not better than options at half the price).
The only advantages Lightweights have over the RZR 46 is servicing (you need to send RZR's back to Colorado) and you can change the freehub. But lets be honest here, no one buys Lightweights because they're looking for the fastest wheel. It's because you want something lightweight and blingy.English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg0 -
Ridden the Gen 3. They were poor when compared to my RZR46 Teams (which are of similar yet more intricate construction), especially when it came to windy conditions. They didn't feel that robust either as I tank through most everything, but I reckon the regular RZR 46 would have been similar on this front.
In terms of actual aero credentials of Lightweights, there are none. They're at best an okay wheel regardless of yaw (they perform best at low yaw, but other narrow wheels like the H3 and non-FC 404/808 take them to town). Disc is good though, very good (but still not better than options at half the price).
The only advantages Lightweights have over the RZR 46 is servicing (you need to send RZR's back to Colorado) and you can change the freehub. But lets be honest here, no one buys Lightweights because they're looking for the fastest wheel. It's because you want something lightweight and blingy.
Aren't the RZR's quite a bit MORE expensive than Meilensteins? They say the spokes are just glued into place with no tension, which I find a bit odd.
I'll have to take your word for it that on the basis of (1?) ride, the LW's were 'poor' in windy conditions. Given that the rim height is more or less the same, I'd be surprised if a very slight difference in profile makes a world of difference.
'No' aero credentials? What as bad as a 20mm box alu rim? Over stating it slightly?
This review is dated now; http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-4934445.html but shows that all wheels tested (excluding Zipp 808 as it's much deeper) are within 2 to 4 watts of each other (and this at a high 50km/h), so at a more normal 35km/h say, (I dont' do TT's) there's hardly anything in it.
Where there IS a big difference is in the LW's stiffness which is top of the pack. If you then combine that with the inertia (basically weight, and where that weight is) you get the stiffness / inertia ratio which again puts LW at the top. (LW's are now stiffer than when this test was done).
So to my mind, usefully aero (I don't really mind being 1W off a Zipp 404), very light and very stiff, with a lovely ride quality (in tubs - I've never ridden the clincher version). Just about every review rates them as 'the best wheels they've ever ridden....', maybe they're being paid off?!0
