Hideous Bike Handling - Please Help
vannichelp
Posts: 16
Hi,
I bought a Van Nicholas AQUILO, its a beautiful frame but it handles like a nightmare OUT OF THE SADDLE onl.
I do not understand why it cant be the way it was intended to handle.
The best way I can describe this is that it feels like the front wheel wants to fold under me, the steering is not progressive. Mechanically everything has been checked.
Now I bought the frame and it was supplied with a "free" fork that has a rake of 45 mm IF I had of purchased the bike direct from Van Nicholas I believe they would have supplied a 43 mm rake fork.
I cant believe this would make that much difference, I also cant believe my bike is handling the way Van Nicholas would have intended.
I have ridden a lot of bikes in my time and never encountered such a horrible feeling, it is unrideable out of the saddle and seriously scary.
Advice needed please as I am worried I have made a very expensive mistake
I bought a Van Nicholas AQUILO, its a beautiful frame but it handles like a nightmare OUT OF THE SADDLE onl.
I do not understand why it cant be the way it was intended to handle.
The best way I can describe this is that it feels like the front wheel wants to fold under me, the steering is not progressive. Mechanically everything has been checked.
Now I bought the frame and it was supplied with a "free" fork that has a rake of 45 mm IF I had of purchased the bike direct from Van Nicholas I believe they would have supplied a 43 mm rake fork.
I cant believe this would make that much difference, I also cant believe my bike is handling the way Van Nicholas would have intended.
I have ridden a lot of bikes in my time and never encountered such a horrible feeling, it is unrideable out of the saddle and seriously scary.
Advice needed please as I am worried I have made a very expensive mistake
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Comments
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When you say it wants to fold under you, is that like the wheel wants to twist rapidly from side to side? By analogy, if the bike is pointing North, the wheel is trying to point East or West?
Moving from a 43mm to a 45mm rake will reduce the trail on the bike, but it should by no means be enough to upset the handling. Canyon offer adjustable rake on some of their forks to let you modify the handling, but it won't make it uncontrollable.
How big is the frame, how long is the stem, what's the forward reach on the bars? I'm wondering if you're putting a lot of weight over the front wheel when you get out of the saddle, and if that may be causing the feeling. Has anyone checked your position on the bike?0 -
2mm difference in trail in neither here nor there. Post a pic...0
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Compare the set up to a bike you know works well for you. To give you an example my new bike is very similar to my old bike except it has shorter reach bars. For me this is ideal as my previous bike had too much reach but if i didn't realise this the bike would feel very different. You could try changing the front wheel for a known working one as a test.0
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How long is the stem?0
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When you say it wants to fold under you, is that like the wheel wants to twist rapidly from side to side? By analogy, if the bike is pointing North, the wheel is trying to point East or West?
Moving from a 43mm to a 45mm rake will reduce the trail on the bike, but it should by no means be enough to upset the handling. Canyon offer adjustable rake on some of their forks to let you modify the handling, but it won't make it uncontrollable.
How big is the frame, how long is the stem, what's the forward reach on the bars? I'm wondering if you're putting a lot of weight over the front wheel when you get out of the saddle, and if that may be causing the feeling. Has anyone checked your position on the bike?
The feeling is like its pointing North and moves either left or right somewhat it wants to continue to fully point due East or West.
The bike shop tried a 90 mm Stem and stated that it didn't make much of a difference, he did state I had my saddle very forward BUT that's surely not in play when i'm out of the saddle.
If I go for less rake forks that would put more weight on the front end?
Its really bizzare as its so bad no way would Van Nicholas have gone into production with it this way
If I was putting a lot of weight on the front wheel could that cause this feeling?
Thanks for your help0 -
How long is the stem?
Originally 120 then I tried 130 .
The bike shop then tried 90 he said it felt a little better but also said he doubted I notice any difference.
Its baffling but absolutely apparent out of the saddle.
Thanks for your help0 -
2mm difference in trail in neither here nor there. Post a pic...
The bike is in the shop now so will post a pic in the new year.
Thanks for your help0 -
Compare the set up to a bike you know works well for you. To give you an example my new bike is very similar to my old bike except it has shorter reach bars. For me this is ideal as my previous bike had too much reach but if i didn't realise this the bike would feel very different. You could try changing the front wheel for a known working one as a test.
Good idea, when I get the bike back from the shop in January I will start to measure up.
Thanks for your help0 -
how tall are you? what size frame?my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny0
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It's not something S simple as your headset bearings are shot/really badly adjusted or front wheel (or parts there in) are goosed?Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am
De Sisti wrote:
This is one of the silliest threads I've come across.
Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honoursmithy21 wrote:
He's right you know.0 -
too short a stem would have been my first guess but if it is quite a long stem i'd imagine the frame is too small and you are too far over the front when you are out the saddle0
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I would guess along those lines.It's not something S simple as your headset bearings are shot/really badly adjusted or front wheel (or parts there in) are goosed?
A misaligned headset bearing would cause this.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
how tall are you? what size frame?
Im 6 2
http://www.fatbirds.co.uk/1041256/products/van-nicholas-aquilo-titanium-road-frame-with-free-fork-and-headset.aspx
I bought the XL as that is the normal top tube length I've always had.
Thanks0 -
I would guess along those lines.It's not something S simple as your headset bearings are shot/really badly adjusted or front wheel (or parts there in) are goosed?
A misaligned headset bearing would cause this.
The bearings were new.
I took it to my LBS who built it up to check again.
It steers smoothly checking the steering off the bike.
I'm no mechanic but would misaligned bearing not show up when simply trying the steering off the bike?
It did creak a bit though when out of the saddle?
Thanks0 -
Misaligned/not seated correctly would turn freely, especially if new.
I would guess along those lines.It's not something S simple as your headset bearings are shot/really badly adjusted or front wheel (or parts there in) are goosed?
A misaligned headset bearing would cause this.
The bearings were new.
I took it to my LBS who built it up to check again.
It steers smoothly checking the steering off the bike.
I'm no mechanic but would misaligned bearing not show up when simply trying the steering off the bike?
It did creak a bit though when out of the saddle?
Thanks
However, they would react to loads. Like when you are out of the saddle leaning on the bars.
That said, there is no point being out of the saddle if your weight is on the bars.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Misaligned/not seated correctly would turn freely, especially if new.
I would guess along those lines.It's not something S simple as your headset bearings are shot/really badly adjusted or front wheel (or parts there in) are goosed?
A misaligned headset bearing would cause this.
The bearings were new.
I took it to my LBS who built it up to check again.
It steers smoothly checking the steering off the bike.
I'm no mechanic but would misaligned bearing not show up when simply trying the steering off the bike?
It did creak a bit though when out of the saddle?
Thanks
However, they would react to loads. Like when you are out of the saddle leaning on the bars.
That said, there is no point being out of the saddle if your weight is on the bars.
If it turns out to be the bearings I will be miffed..they've been supposedly checked twice. I am taking it to the shop where I bought the frame in the new year (FATBIRDS) to see what they say although my fear there is they will say it rides ok ...rather than help me... !0 -
too short a stem would have been my first guess but if it is quite a long stem i'd imagine the frame is too small and you are too far over the front when you are out the saddle
The frame is definitely not too small - I bought a slightly larger one than the sizing said as I* went by a known top tube length requirement.
Thanks0 -
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how tall are you? what size frame?
Im 6 2
http://www.fatbirds.co.uk/1041256/products/van-nicholas-aquilo-titanium-road-frame-with-free-fork-and-headset.aspx
I bought the XL as that is the normal top tube length I've always had.
Thanks
Why did you get XL when the size chart says L as being the ideal size for your height?
Top tube length is not always the only measurement to consider. Effective frame size 60 is quite large.0 -
how tall are you? what size frame?
Im 6 2
http://www.fatbirds.co.uk/1041256/products/van-nicholas-aquilo-titanium-road-frame-with-free-fork-and-headset.aspx
I bought the XL as that is the normal top tube length I've always had.
Thanks
Why did you get XL when the size chart says L as being the ideal size for your height?
Top tube length is not always the only measurement to consider. Effective frame size 60 is quite large.
TBH it feels fine in terms of reach. I am going to change the stem to a 90 and the bars to shorten the reach by 1cm but it feels fine apart from out of the saddle.0 -
Next guess is the wheelset. Is it a very light/low spoke count front wheel? I would imagine a light front wheel might give the sensation of tucking underneath you especially as you are a bigger rider. If you have alternative wheel give it a go.0
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Hi All
After reading up - thank you again google I can now define this better.
What is happening is something defined as wheel flop.
Note that a more stable bike will help the rider stay upright, but cannot be steered with as much precision. One reason track bicycles have less trail is because they are made for a precise ride rather than an easy one. A racer would rather have greater control and take responsibility for keeping the bike upright. This is especially important when the rider is out of the saddle and pushing hard on the pedals. At this time, the bike is being flipped rapidly from side to side, and if it has a large trail, it will wobble as it does so because the front wheel will turn with the lean.
Currently I have a fork with 45 rake, I believe Van Nicholas would supply with a 43.
I dont think stem length will alter wheel flop.
All the definitions ive read make me think this is the problem!!
Thanks all0 -
Next guess is the wheelset. Is it a very light/low spoke count front wheel? I would imagine a light front wheel might give the sensation of tucking underneath you especially as you are a bigger rider. If you have alternative wheel give it a go.
They are Aksiums not the lightest on the market!
I've just posted the exact feeling i'm getting after net research. Wheel flop at low speeds !! Thats the problem im having.
Thanks0 -
Next guess is the wheelset. Is it a very light/low spoke count front wheel? I would imagine a light front wheel might give the sensation of tucking underneath you especially as you are a bigger rider. If you have alternative wheel give it a go.
They are Aksiums not the lightest on the market!
I've just posted the exact feeling i'm getting after net research. Wheel flop at low speeds !! Thats the problem im having.
Thanks
Yes Aksiums should have been fine. That's an interesting piece re-wheelflop.
EDIT: I do suspect though that a shorter stem will exacerbate your problem. I have a 66cm Canyon which I ride with a 90cm stem. High speed downhill stability is not for the faint-hearted, it's a real big thrill ride!0 -
Next guess is the wheelset. Is it a very light/low spoke count front wheel? I would imagine a light front wheel might give the sensation of tucking underneath you especially as you are a bigger rider. If you have alternative wheel give it a go.
They are Aksiums not the lightest on the market!
I've just posted the exact feeling i'm getting after net research. Wheel flop at low speeds !! Thats the problem im having.
Thanks
Yes Aksiums should have been fine. That's an interesting piece re-wheelflop.
EDIT: I do suspect though that a shorter stem will exacerbate your problem. I have a 66cm Canyon which I ride with a 90cm stem. High speed downhill stability is not for the faint-hearted, it's a real big thrill ride!
This is a LOW speed problem :-)
If I bought the bike from Van Nic they would've supplied a 43 rake fork but the "Free" fork from Fatbirds was a 45 one. They have offered to have a ride and see but did make the point they cant take the frame back, I told them I liked the frame and didnt want to send it back but they got that point in first which hacked me off.
Yup customer service ... look after the company first attitude gets to me.
Definately a low speed issue but iI dont know if a shorter stem will help or is a lower fork offset will help. LOL0 -
depends on your weight too, but is there any flex in the fork? try removing the front wheel and then see if you can easily move the ends back/forward with respect to each other
fwiw i swapped out a columbus minimal fork (of similar style to the one shown in your link) for an enve one, the steering on fast cornering improved dramatically, also more controlled when out of the saddlemy bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny0 -
depends on your weight too, but is there any flex in the fork? try removing the front wheel and then see if you can easily move the ends back/forward with respect to each other
fwiw i swapped out a columbus minimal fork (of similar style to the one shown in your link) for an enve one, the steering on fast cornering improved dramatically, also more controlled when out of the saddle
I will try that when I get the bike back from the shop. I dont mind paying for a decent fork but I need to know it will work... I cant be buying an ENVE fork for it not to work ! In honesty I do hope I dont have to shell out for a fork which is that expensive.
I do know the fork I got supplied will be a cheap job lot item from China, having said that it looked ok.
What a pain !
I am going to speak to Van Nicholas about this as its been such a hassle ... 'Im sure they wouldnt want thier frame sold with cheap poorly performing forks.
The issue is definately wheel flop at slow speeds I can confirm that after reading more.
Thanks0 -
wouldn't worry too much about that, should be plenty of cheaper forks than the enve that will be just as stable
i got it for the combination of stiff+light+strong which jacks the price up, buying elsewhere in eu can also help, germany is often a lot cheapermy bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny0 -
The bike has a fully intergrated headset...
My guess: The top of the fork crown rubs against the edge of the lower frame cup during out of the saddle actions due to slight bending of the steerer.
It's pefectly possible to notice nothing in the workstand and get a significant resistance riding.
A second, less likely possibility is the same at the top of the headtube.
Some thin shims or a different cone can solve these problems.
I expierienced this when building a full integrated frame the first time.
BTW a 2 mm higher fork offset is noticable but not enough to compromise the bike's handling.
Edit: took a look at the geometry and this frame has a rather slack steering angle which should not be compromised by 2 mm offset.0 -
The bike has a fully intergrated headset...
My guess: The top of the fork crown rubs against the edge of the lower frame cup during out of the saddle actions due to slight bending of the steerer.
It's pefectly possible to notice nothing in the workstand and get a significant resistance riding.
A second, less likely possibility is the same at the top of the headtube.
Some thin shims or a different cone can solve these problems.
I expierienced this when building a full integrated frame the first time.
BTW a 2 mm higher fork offset is noticable but not enough to compromise the bike's handling.
Edit: took a look at the geometry and this frame has a rather slack steering angle which should not be compromised by 2 mm offset.
Thanks for looking at the frame geometry and your feedback.
So a 43 offset fork would help?
Also If the forks were of better quality there would be no bending in the steerer out of the saddle? (Any advice on actual forks if so?)
And one final thing would a reduction in stem length make any difference?
Thanks for the advice - sorry about the barrage of questions but I just want to sort it and get out riding !0
