Are old Colnagos really that good?....
racingzero
Posts: 111
Hi All
New-ish to road cycling (mountain biker for years before a smashed collar bone crash put me on a roadbike to recover, then I got the bug....5 carbon Wiliers and a Colnago later and I havent been back on a MTB since the crash...5 years ago!)
Anyway, I love my current bikes, a Wilier Zero9 with Di2 and a Colnago CLX3 with Athena....but have been reading so much about the old Colnagos... Masters, Olympics etc....are these steel framed bikes really that good to ride or is it just nostalgic meanderings?....
New-ish to road cycling (mountain biker for years before a smashed collar bone crash put me on a roadbike to recover, then I got the bug....5 carbon Wiliers and a Colnago later and I havent been back on a MTB since the crash...5 years ago!)
Anyway, I love my current bikes, a Wilier Zero9 with Di2 and a Colnago CLX3 with Athena....but have been reading so much about the old Colnagos... Masters, Olympics etc....are these steel framed bikes really that good to ride or is it just nostalgic meanderings?....
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It's a nostalgia trip basically.
Cast an eye over those in LVRC and older group TLi races (a handy number of those racing would have been on high end steel framed bikes in their pomp) - NO ONE races old steel today.
Basically, no ,they dont match up to modern kit, but of you want, you can kid yourself into believing they are.0 -
Racing and quality of ride are separate issues.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
I've got a Master. It looks pretty and makes people go 'oooh!', but there's no difference in ride quality compared to my Genesis Equilibrium. They're both set up in exactly the same position too.0
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NO ONE races old steel today
Yes they do...0 -
I race old nineties steel too. I am not very successful but that is more the fittness of the rider earlier this year. When I felt good I was on the pace when I didn't I was off the back. Sorting the fittness out and I have a new modern bike now to build up and finish but I still will race the steel bike from time to time as it is so nice to ride and it is not slow.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0
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To answer the o's questions are old cling o's any good I don't know never had one. Some of my favourite bikes though are from the 80 ' s and 90's. Some are quicker than others but they all appeal to me more than most modern bikes except the one I have bought that is special.
Racing bikes from the late 80 ' s and early 90's often had short wheel bases. My Sannino for example has a bit of toe overlap and a short top tube and steep seat tube angle meaning I have to run a 140mm stem. These are the design features you would see today but this is all part of the charm of retro bikes. Got several some dressed in period kit just to remind me what pedaling twenty or thirty years ago was like. Much the same as it is now just a tad slower.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
Hmmmm.I've got a Master. It looks pretty and makes people go 'oooh!', but there's no difference in ride quality compared to my Genesis Equilibrium. They're both set up in exactly the same position too.
I chose a Fratello over an Equilibrium. Sounds like I made the wrong choice.
I would choose my Master over the Fratello every day.
In the summer only, mind.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
The old Mapei and Rabobank teams used Colnago bikes. Both teams had lots of legendary riders and won lots of legendary races (Spring classics type stuff). THink that's where it stems from.0
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NO ONE races old steel today
Apart from Madison Genesis Pro Team0 -
NO ONE races old steel today
Apart from Madison Genesis Pro Team
I think they've stopped using the Volare for 2016. Might be wrong but I think it's all Zero going forward.0 -
NO ONE races old steel today
Apart from Madison Genesis Pro Team
I think they've stopped using the Volare for 2016. Might be wrong but I think it's all Zero going forward.
Yeah, they pretty much tailed off the Volare prior to the season just gone. To be fair though, I don't think anyone could accuse the Volare of being just "old steel" given that it was 953 and had some very innovative tubing. I always go a little weak at the knees when I see a Volare but it is something I would love to own and simply cannot afford.0 -
"Old steel" has narrower tubes than something like the Volare, which is able to have wider tubes and still remain light due to the very high strength of the modern steel alloys such as 953 etc, which allows very thin tube walls.
Stiffness in steel frames is largely a function of tubing diameter. Older, narrower-tubed frames are bendier as rule (or else they are significantly heavier due to thicker-walled tubing), which is largely what gives them that distinctive lively/slightly springy ride feel that many people like, but also means that they lack a certain punchiness under sharp acceleration (especially out of the saddle), and usually don't feel as solid and confidence inspiring as a modern frame when cornering/descending.
Probably won't make the slightest difference on a flat time trial but will put you at a mild disadvantage in a road race type situation and/or climbing. But if you are not planning to be competitive in those ways then it just comes down to whether you like the feel of that type of frame or not.
People do get very sentimental about old steel and some of these people strongly resent the above sorts of generalisations, but they are generally true.0 -
I had a Colnago MXL and now have a modern steel bike, Neeb is about right on this. My next bike would probably be a C 60 disc.0
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The Master is modern steel, and thin walled.
Also, the special shape of the tubing makes it stiffer. It also makes it expensive to produce.
It may not be as stiff as an ultra wide BB race frame, and it rides comfortable enough, but it is in no way "springy".
It also handles extremely well.
Then again, it is a new frame and not an old one. Maybe the old ones are like my Raleigh Banana 531c. Now, that was springy!
No one buys a Colnago steel bike to race on, particularly an old one.
They buy one because of the aesthetics, the ride comfort and the heritage.
This is highlighted on every visit to Mallorca surrounded by thousands of exotic carbon bikes, and which one gets the most attention?The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
The Master is an interesting beast - never ridden one but would be curious to do so. The thing is though that while the tube set may be modern the tubes are still narrow diameter, which of course is a large part of the aesthetic but on the face of it means that they can't really be that stiff unless the tube walls are quite thick (which would make it heavy). But those clover-leaf sectioned tubes are unique, so perhaps they do add some stiffness.
The Young's modulus (bendiness, basically) of steel is pretty much the same whatever the particular alloy - so is the weight. The practical difference as a material between one steel alloy and another (e.g. 531 vs. 953) is strength. The stronger the steel the thinner you can make the tube walls. If you just keep the tubes the same diameter but make the walls thinner, you will get a lighter frame but it will be less stiff because it has less material. But the stiffness of a tube as a *structure* goes up exponentially with its diameter, so what the high tech (stronger) modern alloys let you do is make wider (and hence stiffer) tubes with very thin walls, so they can still be light weight. With older, less strong alloys you would have an extremely heavy frame if the tubes were of that diameter because the walls would still need to be quite thick.
Basically, wider tubes or thicker walls will make a frame stiffer, but for the same weight (same total volume of steel) you can get a stiffer tube by making it wide and thin-walled as opposed to narrow and thick-walled. But only strong high-tech alloys allow thin enough walls to make the tubes really wide without increasing the weight.0 -
The C40 is undoubtely the most successful bicycle frame in modern times. As mentioned above, the Mapei and Rabobank team won dozens of classics on a C40 in the 90s. If I was after a relatively old bike with upgradeable features (i.e. that can take most modern components) I would probably look at a C40. The lugged carbon construction makes it quite unique and probably easier to repair than a monocoque frame.
The Master is a beautiful thing, but other than that it is no different from the many period like steel frames that you can buy... I think Singular makes very similar frames for a fraction of the money or you can buy a custom made Bob Jackson/Mercian for less money than an off the peg standard sized Master.
I once had a chat with Chas Roberts over one of those and he told me he thought all those Italian steel lugged frames looked and rode the same, to which I tend to agreeleft the forum March 20230 -
The C40 is undoubtely the most successful bicycle frame in modern times. As mentioned above, the Mapei and Rabobank team won dozens of classics on a C40 in the 90s. If I was after a relatively old bike with upgradeable features (i.e. that can take most modern components) I would probably look at a C40. The lugged carbon construction makes it quite unique and probably easier to repair than a monocoque frame.
I've got two mates with now ex C40's which were bought for retro reasons and both have failed, probably through fatigue. They're now wall ornaments :-(
The C50, EPS, C59 and C60 are all lugged too - and BMC got on the lugged train as well.0 -
The C40 is undoubtely the most successful bicycle frame in modern times. As mentioned above, the Mapei and Rabobank team won dozens of classics on a C40 in the 90s. If I was after a relatively old bike with upgradeable features (i.e. that can take most modern components) I would probably look at a C40. The lugged carbon construction makes it quite unique and probably easier to repair than a monocoque frame.
I've got two mates with now ex C40's which were bought for retro reasons and both have failed, probably through fatigue. They're now wall ornaments :-(
The C50, EPS, C59 and C60 are all lugged too - and BMC got on the lugged train as well.
The more recent crop of Colnago's claim to fame is not backed up by silverware, so they are unlikely to become "classic frames".
Arguably that role in the Italian panorama is firmly in Pinarello's hands now, like it or not...
Personally, as an Italian, I don't give a toss about any of the frame builders... I have a soft spot for Campagnolo, but even that one is fading: if I was on the market today, I'd probably get Shimano for practicality... three figures for a cassette seems madnessleft the forum March 20230 -
... three figures for a cassette seems madness
Although any Campagnolo rider with an ounce of common sense - regardless of the grade of their 11-speed - usues a sub 70 quid Chorus cassette.0 -
... three figures for a cassette seems madness
Although any Campagnolo rider with an ounce of common sense - regardless of the grade of their 11-speed - usues a sub 70 quid Chorus cassette.
You are not going to drag me into a Campagnolo Vs Shimano rant, so give it up...
Where is that smiley with the Santa hat when you need one? left the forum March 20230 -
... three figures for a cassette seems madness
Although any Campagnolo rider with an ounce of common sense - regardless of the grade of their 11-speed - usues a sub 70 quid Chorus cassette.
You are not going to drag me into a Campagnolo Vs Shimano rant, so give it up...
Where is that smiley with the Santa hat when you need one?
Haha - you started it!!!0 -
Spot the bike that stands out. :P
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Owning an old 90's steel (Columbus neuron) and modern carbon (giant tcr and colnago cx-1) I'll be honest and say that in practice I can't tell any difference in the stiffness of any of them. The steel frame is undoubtedly heavier at 1600g v 1000 and 1350. The steel does not in the slightest feel springy or any other term you wish to use. Maybe heavier riders would notice a difference but I certainly don't at 68kg. If there is one it's too subtle for me to detect in normal riding/racing0
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The old Mapei and Rabobank teams used Colnago bikes. Both teams had lots of legendary riders and won lots of legendary races (Spring classics type stuff). THink that's where it stems from.
I think it goes back a just a teeny bit further than Mapei and Rabobank....0 -
The old Mapei and Rabobank teams used Colnago bikes. Both teams had lots of legendary riders and won lots of legendary races (Spring classics type stuff). THink that's where it stems from.
I think it goes back a just a teeny bit further than Mapei and Rabobank....
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Thanks for all the comments guys - as I thought then, just a nostalgia trip really..
Ill be sticking with my modern carbon bikes - one with Campagnolo and one with Shimano just to stop any further "which gruppo is best" arguments
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Just who does buy italian frames and groups these days? I see fewer and fewer Italian frames and almost no Campag at most events and club rides these days - I'd love to see the numbers sold; but I guess Super Record is in tiny numbers to well-heeled freds only. And I haven't seen a new Colnago for at least a couple of years. A friend who has a Master bought in the 80s suggested it was not well-finished (the chrome is not (was not?) well finished and there are a few little imperfections - which a certain (ex) South London builder would not have allowed, IMHO.0
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Just who does buy italian frames and groups these days? I see fewer and fewer Italian frames and almost no Campag at most events and club rides these days - I'd love to see the numbers sold; but I guess Super Record is in tiny numbers to well-heeled freds only.
I often wonder the same... I don't do club rides these days, but I have never seen an EPS groupset in the flesh (i.e. out on the road)left the forum March 20230 -
Just who does buy italian frames and groups these days? I see fewer and fewer Italian frames and almost no Campag at most events and club rides these days - I'd love to see the numbers sold; but I guess Super Record is in tiny numbers to well-heeled freds only.
I often wonder the same... I don't do club rides these days, but I have never seen an EPS groupset in the flesh (i.e. out on the road)
Depends where you ride. Nobody in our club/group runs SRAM but five of us run Campagnolo groups from Athena to EPS (me ;-)).0 -
Just who does buy italian frames and groups these days?
Me. I have a couple of Colnagos (C50 & C59) , and if I were buying again (i.e. C60) I'd likely use Record mechanical.0
