XTR and Saint Brake Combo
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Posts: 538
Hi guys, so my Avid brake shat its self this weekend at Bike Park Wales and the guy said I need a new brake. I am going to replace both as i dont like having two different levers and different feeling brakes.
I am able to get Shimano bits at trade price, so I was looking at getting XTR M9000 levers and match them with Saint M820 calipers. I've read various forum posts about whether it does/doesn't work and how easy/hard it is to setup. The result is I still don't really know! A lot of World Cup DH'ers run XTR/Saint combo as well as some EWS riders, but obviously they could be running prototype this, that and the other.
I understand people use the XTR9000 lever so that they don't have the servo-wave system. I've tried finding out what the system does/feels like, but again to no avail. Some people say its grabby and on/off, others say it has great modulation. Which is true?!
I'm not much of a fan of an on/off brake, I'd rather have a bit of modulation so that I can feather the brakes in the wet/roots/steep shoots etc.
So, does anyone know from personal experience if the XTR M9000 lever and Saint M820 caliper combination works? Do I use the hose for the Saint or XTR? Is it relatively simple to set up? I.e. a case of simply attaching the hose at both ends, giving it a bleed and away you go?
I ride at BPW probably 5 or 6 times a year, and then trail centers the rest of the time. Bike is a Trek Remedy.
Thanks in advance for any info!
I am able to get Shimano bits at trade price, so I was looking at getting XTR M9000 levers and match them with Saint M820 calipers. I've read various forum posts about whether it does/doesn't work and how easy/hard it is to setup. The result is I still don't really know! A lot of World Cup DH'ers run XTR/Saint combo as well as some EWS riders, but obviously they could be running prototype this, that and the other.
I understand people use the XTR9000 lever so that they don't have the servo-wave system. I've tried finding out what the system does/feels like, but again to no avail. Some people say its grabby and on/off, others say it has great modulation. Which is true?!
I'm not much of a fan of an on/off brake, I'd rather have a bit of modulation so that I can feather the brakes in the wet/roots/steep shoots etc.
So, does anyone know from personal experience if the XTR M9000 lever and Saint M820 caliper combination works? Do I use the hose for the Saint or XTR? Is it relatively simple to set up? I.e. a case of simply attaching the hose at both ends, giving it a bleed and away you go?
I ride at BPW probably 5 or 6 times a year, and then trail centers the rest of the time. Bike is a Trek Remedy.
Thanks in advance for any info!
Trek Remedy 7 2009
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Giant Defy 5 2012
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Giant Defy 5 2012
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Comments
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Saint and XTR have different fluid displacement. The hoses for both are the same.
Why not just use XTR levers and calipers? Saint are a bit overkill for a trail bike.Transition Patrol - viewtopic.php?f=10017&t=130702350 -
I run the XTR M9000 Trail set up and for me they are the best brake setup I have used so far in terms of feel and power combined. A friend runs Saints and we both could see little difference in power except at silly speeds and the feel from the XTR lever is better when modulating. I was looking to do the same as you but given my time with the XTR Trail setup I'm glad I avoided the hassle of mixing the two.
The M9000 Trail setup does use servo-wave while the M9000 Race setup does not but you also sacrifice the xtool reach adjust and have to use an Allen key instead which doesn't help on-the-fly adjustment.
I also run the new XT M8000 setup and these are pretty close to XTR for power and equal in feel and would be my choice for a trail brake at the moment for value for money.Bird Aeris : Trek Remedy 9.9 29er : Trek Procaliber 9.8 SL0 -
The more usual fix is to fit an XTR lever (the actual bit you grab) into a Saint body (Shimano list them as compatible), maybe that is what you have (mis) read.Currently riding a Whyte T130C, X0 drivetrain, Magura Trail brakes converted to mixed wheel size (homebuilt wheels) with 140mm Fox 34 Rhythm and RP23 suspension. 12.2Kg.0
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How about just getting the brakes you want and a matching pair of replacement lever caps? I looked this up once and Deore, XT, SLX, Saint and XTR levers all have the same shaped caps with a different paint job. You can even get generic ones that only say "Shimano".Specialized Roubaix Elite 2015
XM-057 rigid 29er0 -
Because, as the most cursory of glances will tell you, XTR and Saint do not have removeable caps, it's an integral part of the lever body!
Have you read http://forums.mtbr.com/brake-time/saint-m820-calipers-xtr-race-m9000-levers-possible-994897.html ?Currently riding a Whyte T130C, X0 drivetrain, Magura Trail brakes converted to mixed wheel size (homebuilt wheels) with 140mm Fox 34 Rhythm and RP23 suspension. 12.2Kg.0 -
That's what he said...The more usual fix is to fit an XTR lever (the actual bit you grab) into a Saint body (Shimano list them as compatible), maybe that is what you have (mis) read.
Although I still haven't worked out why people do this.
The guys at BPW seem to be pretty good at telling people they need to replace their brakes...0 -
Its not what he said, he said XT and XTR have the same shaped caps just painted differently, as XTR doesnt have a cap then no it doesn't!
Further research suggests that the different leverage ratio on the Saint means it pumps between 20 and 25% more fluid for a given lever pull, so fitting an XTR lever assembly would result in 20-25% more lever travel, what you prefer is then personal, it should make it easier to modulate.Currently riding a Whyte T130C, X0 drivetrain, Magura Trail brakes converted to mixed wheel size (homebuilt wheels) with 140mm Fox 34 Rhythm and RP23 suspension. 12.2Kg.0 -
Further research suggests that the different leverage ratio on the Saint means it pumps between 20 and 25% more fluid for a given lever pull, so fitting an XTR lever assembly would result in 20-25% more lever travel, what you prefer is then personal, it should make it easier to modulate.
can you point to the info for that, I've though about swapping my SLX rear caliper to a Zee unit and the only thing different is the banjo bolt is shorter. There are a few threads around discussing this with a reply from shimano in one of them saying there is no issue between the swap0 -
You can measure the displacement difference when bleeding brakes with syringes. I tried it with my Deores and Zees. I would say 15-20% would be about the difference. It's going to be noticeable.
I remember someone at a DH race bodging up a brake with a Deore lever on a Saint caliper. It took most of the evening to bleed and had really big lever travel and a very sponges feel.Transition Patrol - viewtopic.php?f=10017&t=130702350 -
You can measure the displacement difference when bleeding brakes with syringes. I tried it with my Deores and Zees. I would say 15-20% would be about the difference. It's going to be noticeable.
I remember someone at a DH race bodging up a brake with a Deore lever on a Saint caliper. It took most of the evening to bleed and had really big lever travel and a very sponges feel.
I ran a XTR race lever with M820 calipers. Lever on the rear kept pumping up which continued to happen despite spending a age bleeding it. In the end I gave up and fitted Saint levers, they were fine from the start and no pumping up.0 -
You can measure the displacement difference when bleeding brakes with syringes. I tried it with my Deores and Zees. I would say 15-20% would be about the difference. It's going to be noticeable.
I remember someone at a DH race bodging up a brake with a Deore lever on a Saint caliper. It took most of the evening to bleed and had really big lever travel and a very sponges feel.
what deore M596 or M615?0 -
Playing with the free stroke and lever position adjust to optimise it would be critical, perhaps that is why the Deore lever wouldn't cut it.Currently riding a Whyte T130C, X0 drivetrain, Magura Trail brakes converted to mixed wheel size (homebuilt wheels) with 140mm Fox 34 Rhythm and RP23 suspension. 12.2Kg.0
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There are people who can and have made this combo work, but it is a challenge to get the bleed good on them.
I tried it on a spare set of brakes, after I smashed a Saint lever on a tree, the XTR's were on offer at the time and i'd seen people running them so, thought it worth a go.
You have to use the XTR hoses, as they have a smaller bore than the Saints, I presume as the XTR lever doesn't push as much fluid as the Saint one. They were a pig to bleed though.
It worked really well though, lost that nasty grabby feeling that all Shimano brakes seem to have, basically seemed to turn into a really solid, powerful Hope E4 in terms of feel, which is what I wanted.
Worth the hassle/faff though? Not really IMO.0 -
You have to use the XTR hoses, as they have a smaller bore than the Saints, I presume as the XTR lever doesn't push as much fluid as the Saint one. They were a pig to bleed though.
Graves and Rude run Saint hoses with XTR levers :?0 -
As the Saint and XTR body are near enough identical, any issues with bleeding just suggests that the extra fluid needed is more critical due to the extra lever travel on the XTR, otherwise it shouldn't make any difference at all.There are people who can and have made this combo work, but it is a challenge to get the bleed good on them.
I tried it on a spare set of brakes, after I smashed a Saint lever on a tree, the XTR's were on offer at the time and i'd seen people running them so, thought it worth a go.
You have to use the XTR hoses, as they have a smaller bore than the Saints, I presume as the XTR lever doesn't push as much fluid as the Saint one. They were a pig to bleed though.
It worked really well though, lost that nasty grabby feeling that all Shimano brakes seem to have, basically seemed to turn into a really solid, powerful Hope E4 in terms of feel, which is what I wanted.
Worth the hassle/faff though? Not really IMO.
Personally I still use the older 'inject at the calliper' method on my 785's and it works just fine.Currently riding a Whyte T130C, X0 drivetrain, Magura Trail brakes converted to mixed wheel size (homebuilt wheels) with 140mm Fox 34 Rhythm and RP23 suspension. 12.2Kg.0 -
Graves and Rude run Saint hoses with XTR levers :?
Specifically XTR Race levers, they don't have the cam mechanism so provide a more linear response.0 -
Graves and Rude run Saint hoses with XTR levers :?
Specifically XTR Race levers, they don't have the cam mechanism so provide a more linear response.
No they don't just run the race lever.0 -
Don't know about Richie Rude but Jared Graves does, he stated the reason he runs them is to give a more linear response.0
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To OP,
Currently running the XTR lever/Saint setup. Decided to do this as after many, many bleeds and fettling as I was bored of the inconsistent feel of the XTR's and the way they "pump up" on quick, successive applications.
I've got Trail levers(m9000) and you need M820 Saint calipers, Saint hoses and banjo(comes with hoses). Got my LBS to set them up and they are great. Plenty of power, consistent feel, modulation etc etc.0 -
Don't know about Richie Rude but Jared Graves does, he stated the reason he runs them is to give a more linear response.
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/pinkbikes-ews-pro-rides-jared-graves-and-his-yeti-sb5c.html0 -
To OP,
Currently running the XTR lever/Saint setup. Decided to do this as after many, many bleeds and fettling as I was bored of the inconsistent feel of the XTR's and the way they "pump up" on quick, successive applications.
I've got Trail levers(m9000) and you need M820 Saint calipers, Saint hoses and banjo(comes with hoses). Got my LBS to set them up and they are great. Plenty of power, consistent feel, modulation etc etc.
Trail levers are M9020 race are M9000?0 -
To OP,
Currently running the XTR lever/Saint setup. Decided to do this as after many, many bleeds and fettling as I was bored of the inconsistent feel of the XTR's and the way they "pump up" on quick, successive applications.
I've got Trail levers(m9000) and you need M820 Saint calipers, Saint hoses and banjo(comes with hoses). Got my LBS to set them up and they are great. Plenty of power, consistent feel, modulation etc etc.
Trail levers are M9020 race are M9000?
Sorry, typo, Trail M9020 levers with Saint hoses/calipers.
@dickscruttock - how's the elevensix going?0
