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Shifting after fitting chain guide.

jamskijamski Posts: 737
edited December 2015 in MTB workshop & tech
So the cguide v02 has silenced the chain slap. If was pretty bad over even moderate bumps, so that's good. But now the shifting seems a bit screwed. Lots of crunches, a few missed gears, a few slips. I managed to eradicate a few of these by repositioning the guide slightly but it's still not right.

I haven't added any links into the chain, or touched the gears at all since fitting. It may also not have been a fair test as today was probably the toughest test the bikes had so far.

Is it just a case of re-indexing?

Oh, and the chain came off the granny ring once, grrrrrr. And the cguide is nowhere near silent, but it's worth the slight noise to get rid of the banging!

Any advise (within reason, I know what you lot are like) welcome. ;)
Daddy, Husband, Designer, Biker, Gamer, Geek
Bird Aeris 120 | Boardman Team 650b | Boardman Pro FS | Calibre Two.two

Posts

  • cooldadcooldad Posts: 32,601
    Bin the guide.

    Make sure that chain is the right length.

    Wrap an old inner tube around the chainstay.
    I don't do smileys.

    There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda

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  • jamskijamski Posts: 737
    Bin the guide.

    Make sure that chain is the right length.

    Wrap an old inner tube around the chainstay.

    Chain is, or was, the correct length and and the chainstay is covered. Still an awful noise over the bumps. The guide works, it was so much better. Just after some constructive advise on possible tweaks I may need to do now.
    Daddy, Husband, Designer, Biker, Gamer, Geek
    Bird Aeris 120 | Boardman Team 650b | Boardman Pro FS | Calibre Two.two
  • skooterpunkskooterpunk Posts: 9
    edited November 2015
    Hi Mate,

    Keep the guide - you said you suffered from derailing. I had the same thing, and the Bionicon C guide was the only thing to assist in preventing this with a triple front chainring setup (see below).

    Setup:
    - If your chain was set correctly to begin with, make sure you ADD two links to it when using the C Guide. Too tight chain with C Guide fitted may affect your gear shifting/indexing.
    - I'm sure you have, but considering the symptoms you describe make sure the guide is parallel with the chain and not twisted. Put the chain on middle cassette sprocket and see if it looks parallel to chain travel.
    - Make sure the guide is 100mm from the nearest chainring. If too close this will increase noise, but will reduce derailing, the opposite is also true (less noise, more derailments). These two requirements are not always possible depending on your chainstay design.

    I have used one of those for three years now as I suffered from deraling too, noise also, but noise was a secondary issue. To resolve the two issues I also use a Shimano XT Shadow+ rear derailleur, chain stay protector, and have also wound some 'Tommy Tape' (comes in all sort of colours http://www.tommytape.com/) on the seat stay as there was some annoying chain slap there too. Also get a Bionicon C Guide 'Massive Mount'; as they say it's the last one you'll ever need.
    I have had no derailments, no shifting issues, and an almost silent drivetrain, even in the bumpy stuff. From a pure scientific perspective I'm not sure what is proving the best derailment and/or noise protection, but am pretty sure it's the XT Shadow+.
    Hope this helps.

    All the best.
    Scott.
  • Feel free to ping me if you want more details, or help in fixing this issue.
  • jamskijamski Posts: 737
    Hi Mate,

    Keep the guide - you said you suffered from derailing. I had the same thing, and the Bionicon C guide was the only thing to assist in preventing this with a triple front chainring setup (see below).

    Setup:
    - If your chain was set correctly to begin with, make sure you ADD two links to it when using the C Guide. Too tight chain with C Guide fitted may affect your gear shifting/indexing.
    - I'm sure you have, but considering the symptoms you describe make sure the guide is parallel with the chain and not twisted. Put the chain on middle cassette sprocket and see if it looks parallel to chain travel.
    - Make sure the guide is 100mm from the nearest chainring. If too close this will affect noise, but will improve derailing, the opposite is also true (less noise, more derailments). These two requirements are not always possible depending on your chainstay design.

    I have used one of those for three years now as I suffered from deraling too, noise also, but noise was a secondary issue. To resolve the two issues I also use a Shimano XT Shadow+ rear derailleur, chain stay protector, and have also wound some 'Tommy Tape' (comes in all sort of colours http://www.tommytape.com/) on the seat stay as there was some annoying chain slap there too. Also get a Bionicon C Guide 'Massive Mount'; as they say it's the last one you'll ever need.
    I have had no derailments and an almost silent drivetrain, even in the bumpy stuff. From a pure scientific perspective I'm not sure what is proving the best derailment and/or noise protection, but am pretty sure it's the XT Shadow+.
    Hope this helps.

    All the best.
    Scott.

    Thanks very much, appreciate your help. When I get chance I'll have a look at all that. Ideally I'll keep the same mech. It's just a standard Deore. The chain slap was minimal and I was happy with it, so as long as I can get the shifting back to how it was before I'll be happy. :)

    Sounds like I should be able to with some positional tweaks. I assume the only way to get extra links is to buy a new chain?! Quick links are only the outer links right so I can only replace a link with those not add any length?

    Oh, and it came with a 'Massive 'Mount' and that's the one I'm using. :)

    Again, thanks for the help. :)
    Daddy, Husband, Designer, Biker, Gamer, Geek
    Bird Aeris 120 | Boardman Team 650b | Boardman Pro FS | Calibre Two.two
  • No reason you can't use TWO quick links if you're on a budget dude, all good! (I won't divulge how much I feked about with my chain to get this right). The shifting issue sounds like a chain tension/ guide alignment issue. Just to confirm the issue disappears if you remove the guide (before adding the two extra links)? Lemme know how you go. Happy to help. S.
  • ...sorry mate, didn't fully comprehend your question (it's late here); the connector links are external. Um..., I can post you some from Australia if you want, OR, ask your LBS for a single internal link and describe your need. I don't think you need to do anything more than change the chain tension (with links) and ensure correct C Guide alignment. It sounds strange if everything was working before the instalment of the guide, then it became worse. SO, it is possible to correct with minimal budget sensitive adjustment!
    Lemme know how you go. S.
  • jamskijamski Posts: 737
    ...sorry mate, didn't fully comprehend your question (it's late here); the connector links are external. Um..., I can post you some from Australia if you want, OR, ask your LBS for a single internal link and describe your need. I don't think you need to do anything more than change the chain tension (with links) and ensure correct C Guide alignment. It sounds strange if everything was working before the instalment of the guide, then it became worse. SO, it is possible to correct with minimal budget sensitive adjustment!
    Lemme know how you go. S.

    Thanks mate, I'll pop into my LBS and explain, hopefully they'll hand me over a couple of links. :) Everything seemed fine before fitting the guide, although yesterday was my first experience of a bike park so it was probably pushed harder than before. I might go out on my local routes and compare to before just to see if there's a difference. I'm convinced it's the guide though so hopefully with your advise I'll get it sorted. Will let you know. Cheers mate.
    Daddy, Husband, Designer, Biker, Gamer, Geek
    Bird Aeris 120 | Boardman Team 650b | Boardman Pro FS | Calibre Two.two
  • jamskijamski Posts: 737
    So I finally found some time to have a look at the guide. Spent a couple of hours buggering about with it and have actually moved it nearer the chain rings than was suggested. I think my chainstays must be quite short. It's meant it is noisier but the chain seems smoother, especially when the larger cogs are being used. Chain is now two links longer too. Went out for a VERY quick blast and when I'm in the granny ring, using the lower end of the cassette and putting the power down the chain is still slipping at times. Any ideas about that? It's probably not something that will happen as I'm usually in the middle ring but it's annoying me!

    Thanks.
    Daddy, Husband, Designer, Biker, Gamer, Geek
    Bird Aeris 120 | Boardman Team 650b | Boardman Pro FS | Calibre Two.two
  • step83step83 Posts: 4,016
    Does sound like the chain or the ring, ive been using a C Guide for a couple of years without issue. Only noise you should get is when pedaling very slowly or back pedaling. Ill get a photo of how mine is set later. Trick is finding the spot they guide can swing enough for the front an rear shifting changes without hitting its limits.
  • jamskijamski Posts: 737
    Chain is brand new so can't be that. Could be a censored cassette but it's only done a couple of hundred miles! only seems to be when I'm in the smallest chainring too, not the others which is odd.
    Daddy, Husband, Designer, Biker, Gamer, Geek
    Bird Aeris 120 | Boardman Team 650b | Boardman Pro FS | Calibre Two.two
  • cooldadcooldad Posts: 32,601
    Depends what you call the lower end of the cassette. Low gears or small cogs?
    I don't do smileys.

    There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda

    London Calling on Facebook

    Parktools
  • step83step83 Posts: 4,016
    Couple hundred miles shouldnt have munched it. What Rookie said though, which end.

    Have a look at the actual teeth on the cassette an rings see if any look shark toothed. Is the guide swinging side to side freely? What your describing sounds almost like its stuck.

    Heres how close mine is set for reference more than anything

    20151128_111444_HDR_zpsanklfrki.jpg
  • jamskijamski Posts: 737
    Couple hundred miles shouldnt have munched it. What Rookie said though, which end.

    Have a look at the actual teeth on the cassette an rings see if any look shark toothed. Is the guide swinging side to side freely? What your describing sounds almost like its stuck.

    Heres how close mine is set for reference more than anything

    20151128_111444_HDR_zpsanklfrki.jpg

    Looks similar position to mine. Small cogs is what I was meaning. I'm pretty sure it's position is correct. I'll upload some shots shortly! :)
    Daddy, Husband, Designer, Biker, Gamer, Geek
    Bird Aeris 120 | Boardman Team 650b | Boardman Pro FS | Calibre Two.two
  • jamskijamski Posts: 737
    Crappy pics but you'll get the idea.

    IMG_5721_zpsgx7kcizh.jpg

    And with the chain 'big to big'. This is why I moved it towards the chain rings. Any closer to the rear and as I approached anywhere near this the chain would rub on the inside of the rear mech due to the angle the chain was entering the guide. I know you wouldn't ever use this combo of gears btw!

    IMG_5720_zpspkdpqmdx.jpg

    As for the cassette I posted this pic in August and was told it was fine. I was concerned then about the shape of some of the teeth. It's been like this from new though!

    IMG_4957_zpsqauw2v02.jpg

    Have to say everything is changing really smoothly now, it's just when putting the power through those smaller cogs on the rear. All part of the fun though. :)

    Thanks for all the help.
    Daddy, Husband, Designer, Biker, Gamer, Geek
    Bird Aeris 120 | Boardman Team 650b | Boardman Pro FS | Calibre Two.two
  • step83step83 Posts: 4,016
    Correct me if im wrong here, but the second image, that mech looks a tad over strectched. I didnt realise you were running three chainrings up front, its not something I would usually suggest, namely for what It does at the extremes like that.

    Cassette wise it looks OK though
  • jamskijamski Posts: 737
    Correct me if im wrong here, but the second image, that mech looks a tad over strectched. I didnt realise you were running three chainrings up front, its not something I would usually suggest, namely for what It does at the extremes like that.

    Cassette wise it looks OK though

    That's with two links added, you should have seen it before! Lets be honest, it's never going to be ridden like that anyway. Shift one cog down on the cassette and it's perfectly fine and even at that extreme it's not goig to break anything, but that's why the guide needs to be where it is.

    I'll have to get out and have a proper test sometime. :)
    Daddy, Husband, Designer, Biker, Gamer, Geek
    Bird Aeris 120 | Boardman Team 650b | Boardman Pro FS | Calibre Two.two
  • jamskijamski Posts: 737
    Just been out again, and I'm just going to get on with it now! The bike was less than £300 and I should just be enjoying it! I have a bit of ocd needing things perfect, sometimes I just need to chill and enjoy what I have. :) Thanks for all the advise everyone, if I have any other problems I'll be back. ;)
    Daddy, Husband, Designer, Biker, Gamer, Geek
    Bird Aeris 120 | Boardman Team 650b | Boardman Pro FS | Calibre Two.two
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