Calling Canyon Ultimate owners
dstev55
Posts: 742
I started road cycling about a year ago and I have absolutely fell in love with it. I have been learning the ropes on a BTwin Alur 700, which in all honesty has been fantastic for the money I paid, but with the distance I am covering a week and the type of riding I do I would prefer a good spec Carbon framed bike for the better half of the year. I originally had my heart set on a either a Rose CGF or Canyon Endurace, however I keep finding myself salivating over the Canyon Ultimate webpage.
My main concern is geometry. I have turned the stem upside down on my Alur 700 as I find I get too much back and neck pain otherwise. I did test ride a Cannondale Synapse a few weeks back and found it very comfortable and a bit too upright in all honesty. The obvious problem with Canyon is that fact that I cannot try a bike before I buy, so I am having to rely on geometry data alone (and hopefully current owner's data). Unfortunately I cannot find any stack or reach data for my Btwin Alur 700 and I'm not exactly sure how to measure it accurately. However the Stack to Reach ratio of the Synapse I rode was 1.52 which gives me something to go at.
The Ultimate I am most interested in is the CF SLX 9.0. Now this comes with the Aero cockpit, so I'm not sure how much adjustment can be made in terms of raising or lowering the whole cockpit. In a large sized frame (it's debatable whether I need a medium or large, which is a separate issue in it's own right!) with a standard 100mm stem, the stack to reach ratio is 1.48. Not a million miles off the Synapse. Spec the bike with a 90mm stem and it increases to 1.52, exactly the same as the Synapse.
Firstly, is stack to reach an accurate indication of bike position? Secondly, does anyone who owns any Ultimate model give me some info on the geometry of the bike, is it fairly relaxed or is it really a true racer?
Thanks in advance!
David
My main concern is geometry. I have turned the stem upside down on my Alur 700 as I find I get too much back and neck pain otherwise. I did test ride a Cannondale Synapse a few weeks back and found it very comfortable and a bit too upright in all honesty. The obvious problem with Canyon is that fact that I cannot try a bike before I buy, so I am having to rely on geometry data alone (and hopefully current owner's data). Unfortunately I cannot find any stack or reach data for my Btwin Alur 700 and I'm not exactly sure how to measure it accurately. However the Stack to Reach ratio of the Synapse I rode was 1.52 which gives me something to go at.
The Ultimate I am most interested in is the CF SLX 9.0. Now this comes with the Aero cockpit, so I'm not sure how much adjustment can be made in terms of raising or lowering the whole cockpit. In a large sized frame (it's debatable whether I need a medium or large, which is a separate issue in it's own right!) with a standard 100mm stem, the stack to reach ratio is 1.48. Not a million miles off the Synapse. Spec the bike with a 90mm stem and it increases to 1.52, exactly the same as the Synapse.
Firstly, is stack to reach an accurate indication of bike position? Secondly, does anyone who owns any Ultimate model give me some info on the geometry of the bike, is it fairly relaxed or is it really a true racer?
Thanks in advance!
David
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Comments
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If you know the make model and size of your bike, size of the Synapse, and length of stem on each (flipped on yours right), the amount of spacers on each including the headset conical cap (or to put it another way, the amount of mm from the frame at the top of the headtube up to the bottom of the stem)... then people might be able to start to help figure it out.
Forget stack to reach ratios and what's racy, you should have a position that's known, you then get the bike to fit that position NOT alter that position to fit the bike. Some bikes you can't fit to your position cos of unsuitable geometry or being stuck between sizes.
Don't worry, loads of people get all of this wrong. Well, I mean worry. As far as help here goes, start by providing some of the information in my first para, along with seat height and fore-aft. If you're unsure you even fit properly on your current bike then forget this completely and don't listen to anyone here. Instead, you can do one of two things if you want to mail order a bike, (1) Go for a proper bike fit, (2) Go for a proper bike fit.
Note that many people don't go for a proper bike fit but still have a good fit, obtaining it from experimentation and lots of experience.0 -
To measure the stack and reach of your BTwin use the advice suggested in this link
http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/05/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq/technical-faq-setting-your-bikes-up-identically_216035
The above describes how to set up 2 bikes so that they have an identical riding position.
For your purposes, just position the BTwin as described then measure the horizontal distance from the wall to the centre of the headtube (X). Then measre the horizontal distance from the wall to the centre of the bottom bracket (Y). Calculate X minus Y and that gives you the reach parameter.
For the stack measurement measure the vertical distance from the floor to the top of the headtube (A) then measure the vertical height from the floor to the centre of the bottom bracket(B). A minus B gies you the stack measurement.
You can then work out the ratio of your existing bike.0 -
Forget reach and stack ratios on existing bike. Geometry table will be fine once you say the size, and will search for the geometry table. Your spacers and stem choice and seatpost (layback) and saddle fore-aft and height will all affect things a lot. Plus then, if you aren't sure that the position you have at the moment is bang on then it all becomes guesswork and taking punts here and there.
It might also help for a rough ballpark if you can say how tall you are, how old you are, how flexible you are etc etc... and a photo of existing bike might be a useful insight.0 -
If you know the make model and size of your bike, size of the Synapse, and length of stem on each (flipped on yours right), the amount of spacers on each including the headset conical cap (or to put it another way, the amount of mm from the frame at the top of the headtube up to the bottom of the stem)... then people might be able to start to help figure it out.
Forget stack to reach ratios and what's racy, you should have a position that's known, you then get the bike to fit that position NOT alter that position to fit the bike. Some bikes you can't fit to your position cos of unsuitable geometry or being stuck between sizes.
Don't worry, loads of people get all of this wrong. Well, I mean worry. As far as help here goes, start by providing some of the information in my first para, along with seat height and fore-aft. If you're unsure you even fit properly on your current bike then forget this completely and don't listen to anyone here. Instead, you can do one of two things if you want to mail order a bike, (1) Go for a proper bike fit, (2) Go for a proper bike fit.
Note that many people don't go for a proper bike fit but still have a good fit, obtaining it from experimentation and lots of experience.
I am happy to go for a bike fit and it is something that I have already considered. Obviously a bike fit will provide me with the optimum fitting for my current bike, I assume a good bike fitter would look at a new bike's geometry and advise on whether it would be suitable or not based on what he is recorded from my bike fit?
I don't mind doing all the measurements myself, but I really want to get it right. I've got all on convincing the better half that it is a great idea to spend £3.5k on a new bike, the last thing I want to do is end up with a bike that doesn't fit properly!0 -
The geometry of the Alur is pictured below
If you can tell us which size you ride that would help to assess the best frame size for the Canyon0 -
I am happy to go for a bike fit and it is something that I have already considered. Obviously a bike fit will provide me with the optimum fitting for my current bike, I assume a good bike fitter would look at a new bike's geometry and advise on whether it would be suitable or not based on what he is recorded from my bike fit?
I don't mind doing all the measurements myself, but I really want to get it right. I've got all on convincing the better half that it is a great idea to spend £3.5k on a new bike, the last thing I want to do is end up with a bike that doesn't fit properly!
Yep, a good bike fitter will be able to work out your position close to correct or bang on, hopefully it will be possible to set up your existing bike to this. They'll also be able to advise on what's suitable to buy that you'll fit correctly on, they'll know very quickly by looking at a potential bike's geometry table. That said, from the information you'd then be armed with you could say it on here and people could work it out.
If you only want the fitter to measure your existing fit because you know it's pretty much bang on then there's no point. Measure it yourself.0 -
Forget reach and stack ratios on existing bike. Geometry table will be fine once you say the size, and will search for the geometry table. Your spacers and stem choice and seatpost (layback) and saddle fore-aft and height will all affect things a lot. Plus then, if you aren't sure that the position you have at the moment is bang on then it all becomes guesswork and taking punts here and there.
It might also help for a rough ballpark if you can say how tall you are, how old you are, how flexible you are etc etc... and a photo of existing bike might be a useful insight.
I am just shy of 6ft, 29 years of age and generally not very flexible (I am about 3 inches short of being able to touch my toes whilst standing with my legs straight). I think my legs are slightly longer than average for my height - my inside leg measurement is 89cm. I'll get a photo of my existing bike when the weather improves!
My current bike is a Medium size.0 -
Your inside leg is definitely long for your height, 89cm is 35".0
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Forget reach and stack ratios on existing bike. Geometry table will be fine once you say the size, and will search for the geometry table. Your spacers and stem choice and seatpost (layback) and saddle fore-aft and height will all affect things a lot. Plus then, if you aren't sure that the position you have at the moment is bang on then it all becomes guesswork and taking punts here and there.
It might also help for a rough ballpark if you can say how tall you are, how old you are, how flexible you are etc etc... and a photo of existing bike might be a useful insight.
I am just shy of 6ft, 29 years of age and generally not very flexible (I am about 3 inches short of being able to touch my toes whilst standing with my legs straight). I think my legs are slightly longer than average for my height - my inside leg measurement is 89cm. I'll get a photo of my existing bike when the weather improves!
My current bike is a Medium size.
Your current bike has a 500mm seat tube and a 548mm top tube.
Canyon Ultimate geometry is here:-
https://www.canyon.com/en-gb/road/ultimate/2016/ultimate-cf-slx-9-0.html
Closest frame to your existing bike is the size "S" with a seat tube of 492mm and a top tube of 544mm0 -
Your inside leg is definitely long for your height, 89cm is 35".
I know, I've measured it again and it's definitely right assuming I'm measuring it correctly. I'm using a small spirit level, pushing it up as far as I can between my legs then mark the wall and measure the height of this mark. I think this is also part of the reason I can be uncomfortable on the bike as my legs are long in proportion to my body.0 -
Forget reach and stack ratios on existing bike. Geometry table will be fine once you say the size, and will search for the geometry table. Your spacers and stem choice and seatpost (layback) and saddle fore-aft and height will all affect things a lot. Plus then, if you aren't sure that the position you have at the moment is bang on then it all becomes guesswork and taking punts here and there.
It might also help for a rough ballpark if you can say how tall you are, how old you are, how flexible you are etc etc... and a photo of existing bike might be a useful insight.
I am just shy of 6ft, 29 years of age and generally not very flexible (I am about 3 inches short of being able to touch my toes whilst standing with my legs straight). I think my legs are slightly longer than average for my height - my inside leg measurement is 89cm. I'll get a photo of my existing bike when the weather improves!
My current bike is a Medium size.
Your current bike has a 500mm seat tube and a 548mm top tube.
Canyon Ultimate geometry is here:-
https://www.canyon.com/en-gb/road/ultimate/2016/ultimate-cf-slx-9-0.html
Closest frame to your existing bike is the size "S" with a seat tube of 492mm and a top tube of 544mm
Which seems crazy doesn't it? There's no way a six footer should be on a small frame! I think I should erring on the small side however and probably looking at a medium if the bike was deemed suitable.0 -
I have a Canyon ultimate cf slx that I bought in the summer. It's amazing and if you are unsure of the size geometry you require call the number on their website. I got put through to a very nice chap in their London office who guided me to exactly the right decision :-)0
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FWIW i have an Ultimate CF and am just about to order a new Ultimate CF SLX (when i can settle on which model). The new SLX has a slightly more aggressive geometry to the previous version (or so Canyon have told me). I am 5ft 10" and have an inside leg of 32", the medium CF was spot on for me with a 110mm stem.
OP i can't see anyway a small could be the correct size for you if you are close to 6ft. I would contact Canyon who will help you with the sizing.
Also note that if you get the 9.0 then it is vitally important to get the correct size stem as it is quite costly to change the integrated bar/stem combination.0 -
Right here's a picture of my bike and then one of me on it. Bear in mind I am leaning against a wall slightly so my concealed arm isn't quite as it should be.
Is it me or does the bike look tiny with me on it?
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IF you do want to replicate that exact position, it's possible to work a few things out. Personally, I wouldn't bother, I'd go for a good bike fit with someone with a great reputation because you don't look quite right on it to me. I also think with your proportions you'd benefit from one, especially as you're unsure it's right.
It looks a little like an old persons position to me, it doesn't look quite right, that's my gut reaction anyway, and that's all that can come from a photo. It doesn't smack of being completely and wildly wrong though!
Remember the Canyon might well simply not be suitable for your proportions as well, and a good bike fitter will be able to point you at bikes that will suit.0 -
If your inseam is 89cm then your saddle height is likely to be circa 78 cm in which case, the drop on the ultimate (small) is likely to be Adam Hansen proportions - unless you have significant spacers. A larger frame means less drop but possibly too much reach. Get a bike fit from the likes of Adrian Timmis will dial in your measurements and at the same he can offer advice for the appropriate frame size.0
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If your inseam is 89cm then your saddle height is likely to be circa 78 cm in which case, the drop on the ultimate (small) is likely to be Adam Hansen proportions - unless you have significant spacers. A larger frame means less drop but possibly too much reach. Get a bike fit from the likes of Adrian Timmis will dial in your measurements and at the same he can offer advice for the appropriate frame size.
Thanks, Adrian Timmis would be the bike fitter I would go to as he is in the same county as me. It seems a bike fit is the way to go!!!0 -
you say you found the synapse a "little bit upright", did it have the 25mm conical spacer + another 4 x 5mm spacers? I believe they come as stock like this.
Canyons are great value. But there are always plenty of old Cannonade's knocking about. I would have thought a 2015 105 Synapse could be had early next year for 30% off RRP - it would need to be 2015 model to get the 5800 105 - which is a huge jump up in quality.... have a look at paulscycles when the time is right lots of bargains ... a 2014 ultegra synapse would do well.
Bike for would be a good idea also, but if you are comfortable on long ride ... it is not a huge issue to just replicate fit. disclaimer: i am trying to persuade myself i have no need for a bike fit. one thing about bike fits, especially to a new rider is that your position will alter over time, as you become more flexible etc..... "real bike fit" ppl should get fit every two years apparently :roll:
If you find out by measuring your current ride (assuming you don't have injury/pain issues) and replicate your fit on, say, a bargain synapse.
1) you'll have a blast it is a great bike - and on sale real bargains can be found. As you position changes you can bring the bars down the steerer and the stem longer .... and contentious issue your saddle might go back - because as your flexibility improves then your centre of gravity changes (this is the steve hogg theory at least)...
Canyon's are great, but never on Sale. Paulscycles shift new-old-stock for 50% reductions sometimes .... take a look.
one tip. 5800 2015 year 105 minimum0 -
you say you found the synapse a "little bit upright", did it have the 25mm conical spacer + another 4 x 5mm spacers? I believe they come as stock like this.
Canyons are great value. But there are always plenty of old Cannonade's knocking about. I would have thought a 2015 105 Synapse could be had early next year for 30% off RRP - it would need to be 2015 model to get the 5800 105 - which is a huge jump up in quality.... have a look at paulscycles when the time is right lots of bargains ... a 2014 ultegra synapse would do well.
Bike for would be a good idea also, but if you are comfortable on long ride ... it is not a huge issue to just replicate fit. disclaimer: i am trying to persuade myself i have no need for a bike fit. one thing about bike fits, especially to a new rider is that your position will alter over time, as you become more flexible etc..... "real bike fit" ppl should get fit every two years apparently :roll:
If you find out by measuring your current ride (assuming you don't have injury/pain issues) and replicate your fit on, say, a bargain synapse.
1) you'll have a blast it is a great bike - and on sale real bargains can be found. As you position changes you can bring the bars down the steerer and the stem longer .... and contentious issue your saddle might go back - because as your flexibility improves then your centre of gravity changes (this is the steve hogg theory at least)...
Canyon's are great, but never on Sale. Paulscycles shift new-old-stock for 50% reductions sometimes .... take a look.
one tip. 5800 2015 year 105 minimum
I'd be getting at least Ultegra in whatever bike I get. The Synapse I test rode just didn't feel special enough, hence why I'm looking at a pro level bike. Plus I want a bike that is as light as possible. One bike I have sat on and the geometry felt Ok was a Trek Emonda so I may explore this avenue a little further although it won't be until the new year now plus I think I'm going to get a bike fit regardless.0 -
If you are based in Staffordshire you are not miles away from EPIC cycles - who do a bike fit, allow proper test rides and sell bikes at good prices.
I bought a bike from them on ebay which was sold as a demo at a rock bottom price. I had an issue with the bike which was not covered by a warranty, they made a fix on the bike with no cost to me - so I can attest to their service being top notch.
http://www.epic-cycles.co.uk/index.htm0 -
getting a bike fit, and having the fitter talk you through what frames (and how to set them up re: spacers and stem) is the best idea for sure.
If possible choose a fitter who also doesn't just happen to sell brand A, B & C .... or if they do, insist your results
come in a stack & reach format, so that frames/bikes they dont sell are still a possible consideration.
For some reason, I am always impressed when i look at the epic cycles website.
Emondas are a nice bike for sure.
Take your time, and if you get a stack and reach to aim for (and understand how these can be manipulated with spacers and stems) Eg. Minimum Stack with 25mm of spacers + 10mm topcap, Minimum Reach that would work with a 90mm stem (better to have 100-110 stem imo).
Get a list of bikes that 'qualify' for you fit, find bargains/price up the options....
.... they buy the bike that you think will most make you want to go out and ride it.0
