Gearing down
Comments
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I've only ever used a compact. I live in hilly Yorkshire - I seek out even bigger hills whenever I have the time - and I haven't been defeated yet by anything it can throw at me. I used a 50-34/12-26 (9Spd) for a while - which was fine - and now I use a 50-34/11-28 (11Spd) - Which is better. The extra couple of cogs on the back keep my cadence up higher on the climbs. I don't use a cadence sensor so I can't tell you what I am doing, but I rarely use those bottom gears unless I have to.. And I regularly climb Greenhow, Fleet Moss, Coal Road, Buttertubs, Grinton Moor.. And anyone ever done the climb from Dentdale over into Barbondale? That's a killer...
And I average between 16 and 20 mph depending on the conditions on the day and how long I go out for. Often hitting 50mph+ (56 is my highest according to the Garmin).. Which is 80Km/h if my maths works out right. Way faster than pedalling will do anything compared to tucking..
bob6397Boardman HT Team - Hardtail
Rose Pro-SL 2000 - Roadie0 -
Lucky git living in yorkshire stop rubbing it in.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0
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I would like to understand why anybody feels they need a standard double 53/39 - I have one because it's what came with the stonking deal on the Foil and it is fine for N Holland but I'd never choose it. Even if you live somewhere flat, sooner or later you're likely to head for some proper hills (Limburg and the Ardennes over here) and you'll need to gear down. In the meantime, I doubt many of us spin out that often - certainly not enough to warrant a big front ring - after all, if there are no big hills to go up, there won't be many to come down. And changing rings on modern chainsets is smooth. I just don't see the advantage (as a user myself) - could someone educate me, please?
BTW - I'm moving to the Cotswolds this weekend and the Foil is getting a compact.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
I would like to understand why anybody feels they need a standard double 53/39 - I have one because it's what came with the stonking deal on the Foil and it is fine for N Holland but I'd never choose it. Even if you live somewhere flat, sooner or later you're likely to head for some proper hills (Limburg and the Ardennes over here) and you'll need to gear down. In the meantime, I doubt many of us spin out that often - certainly not enough to warrant a big front ring - after all, if there are no big hills to go up, there won't be many to come down. And changing rings on modern chainsets is smooth. I just don't see the advantage (as a user myself) - could someone educate me, please?
BTW - I'm moving to the Cotswolds this weekend and the Foil is getting a compact.
In my youth I was living in Yorkshire and we only had 42/52 with 16-20. We'd usually get over Fleet Moss etc without walking but it wasn't pleasant.
Spinning out is not really an issue, there's hardly any difference between 50x11 and 53x11, we just have a much bigger spread these days, though if you don't need a compact I feel happier on a 39 than a 34.0 -
Oh god what have I started :shock:
You haven't started anything, this debate has been rumbing on in different threads on this forum since it started.I have picked up another Apex crankset with a smaller spider. Was easier than faffing with a different BB type as most others appear to be FSA which would mean changing to a BB30.
Gearing is now 34-50T with an 11-32T cassette rear The mech wont take a 34T cassette its only a medium. I'll fit it at the weekend and go play with the hills in Woburn see what happens.
Excellent
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My thoughts - the main disadvantage of a compact is that 34T is too small for anything but significant hills (either long, or very steep). With a compact I would spend about 90% of my time in the big ring, therefore I had a far smaller range of useful gears. With a double, the 39T is a viable option for general riding if you want to take it easy / ride at a higher cadence. I also find the bigger gears helpful - there have been a couple of occasions where 50/11 wasn't enough for me to maintain optimum cadence which is what prompted me to get a double on my racing bike. You also get a better chainline if you don't have to default to the smallest sprocket whenever you are riding at speed.
Having daid that, there is nothing wrong with compacts. They make a lot of sense if you are riding in hilly areas, doing long sportives, trips to the Alps etc. They are also viable for racing (although I would always want an 11T sprocket) if not always ideal. I will putting my compact back on the race bike soon as the double is going to be moved to the TT bike. FWIW I also have a double on the commuter - I seldom leave the big ring riding round London, and 39T is fine for the climbs of the North Downs. I don't think I have ever had anything bigger than a 26T sprocket on the back either.0 -
I live in the same area as the OP. We don't have any long hills here but we do have a few short sharp shocks; Church Road, Bow Brickhill, Three Locks up to Gt. Brickhill, possibly the Deer Park climb in Woburn (if I'm being generous) but we have to go further afield for something longer like down to Ivinghoe Beacon.
I'm an overweight 50 year old on a compact 11-28, 11 speed. Mostly very happy, nothing I can't get up locally, my only real gripe is I definitely don't need an 11 tooth cog and have considered going 12-28 but it's freaking expensive so I may even consider the cheaper 14-28 as I have no interest in speeding down hills.0 -
I raced a compact and 12-25 to second cat, then moved a mid compact this year. There were times in races where you're forced to put down power at speeds where normally you'd be easing off.
For general riding though, I struggle to believe people who say they get good use out of a standard gearing. Who genuinely goes out on their own and is sitting at 50 kph plus for extended periods of time whilst still pedaling?
Imagine you average 32-35kph... a high average by most peoples standards, you'd probably spend most your time slightly above that at 34-38 kph. At those speeds with a compact you'd be in the second, third and fourth sprockets... so hardly a bad chain line! Although... if you're doing these speeds on your own, you probably already race, and may have a standard fitted for that.
The truth is some people are kidding themselves. The average club rider spending most their ride at 24-30 kph would be best served with a compact spending most of their time in the mid to upper rear sprockets.
If you're general cruising speed is below 15 mph (say averaging around 13 mph), you may want to consider a triple, cyclocross double, or a mtb cassette (34t).0 -
meanspirit rider because you dont understand it means you probably don't need it. I on the other hand have tried compacts and hate riding on them. The inner ring is useless for me. I spend alot of time when just riding/commuting/training or club runs in the inner ring in the middle of the cassette that is quite comfortable. To get the same gearing on a compact I would have to be towards the smaller cogs which wear faster or in the big ring and in the upper part of the cassette. Both involve crossing the chain which I try to avoid. My favourite inner ring is on my Trek it is a 41T I have no need on that bike to venture into the big ring except when pedaling downhill. 41/19T and 41/17T is a very comfortable gear indeed .
Ultimately you need to ride what suits you and not someone else.
So while I agree in part with the above posts I disagree when it said people who use 53/39T are kidding themselves.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
meanspirit rider because you dont understand it means you probably don't need it. I on the other hand have tried compacts and hate riding on them. The inner ring is useless for me. I spend alot of time when just riding/commuting/training or club runs in the inner ring in the middle of the cassette that is quite comfortable. To get the same gearing on a compact I would have to be towards the smaller cogs which wear faster or in the big ring and in the upper part of the cassette. Both involve crossing the chain which I try to avoid. My favourite inner ring is on my Trek it is a 41T I have no need on that bike to venture into the big ring except when pedaling downhill. 41/19T and 41/17T is a very comfortable gear indeed .
Ultimately you need to ride what suits you and not someone else.
So while I agree in part with the above posts I disagree when it said people who use 53/39T are kidding themselves.
Very reasonable, too - agreed on all points. Bigger chainrings are better, I can have the gears that I want for the riding I do, and having a big jump at the front makes for a sudden change in gear ratio when changing; it doesn't surprise me that many go for 36/50 or 36/46 a la CX. If I went to the alps I might consider a compact, but I don't have any plans to.0 -
My favourite inner ring is on my Trek it is a 41T I have no need on that bike to venture into the big ring except when pedaling downhill. 41/19T and 41/17T is a very comfortable gear indeed .
When do you ever go sown hill in Suffolk?? That big ring must be almost un-used!
I understand the point about regularly finding yourself toward the upper end of the cassette, cross chained and in the 'shifting zone'. Finding your median speed or cruising speed puts you in 50-21 or 50-23 and constantly being on edge of a front shift is annoying. But the most logical solution in this situation is surely to fit smaller front rings which would bring you down the cassette for the same ratio. This would fix the chain line issue and it doesn't sacrifice climbing gears.
It just seems an odd fix to increase your chainring size so you spend most of your time in the small chainring. It might work for you, in suffolk, where you don't need a gear for climbing, but I'm yet to be convinced it's optimum.
However, most people who are cruising around at 25kph (1.4 w/kg), aren't going to be comfortable having to put out over 4w/kg just to turn a 41-25 gear over when they hit a hill of 10%.0 -
The 53/39 guys haven't helped me understand it other that to say maybe you like riding at low cadences - or that you put out awesome power and ride everywhere at 40kmh. I'm confident that I'm not a slow rider and I'm confident that I've been pretty fit in the last few years. I also don't think I ride at high cadences (I naturally pedal at around 85-90) - so I'm wondering which bit of your riding is different from mine.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0
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The 53/39 guys haven't helped me understand it other that to say maybe you like riding at low cadences - or that you put out awesome power and ride everywhere at 40kmh. I'm confident that I'm not a slow rider and I'm confident that I've been pretty fit in the last few years. I also don't think I ride at high cadences (I naturally pedal at around 85-90) - so I'm wondering which bit of your riding is different from mine.
Honestly i don't think there's much in it. There are times, on certain terrain, where you might feel you're swapping too often between the big and little ring, but i think that can be true of any set up. Likewise you might feel you nver use the little ring.
For example at your cadence (85) the 34x11 will only take you to 34kph so you'll probably ride mainly on the big ring since you can go down to 19kph with a 50x23 at 65rpm. So basically you've only got 10 gears except for big climbs.
I think managed to make that almost totally unintelligable!0 -
Yup - but even in pan-flat N Holland, whilst 53/39 works, I wouldn't feel troubled by 50/34 either - and that's my question: what would I have missed had I (or anybody in this situation) had compact for the last 2 years?ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0
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Nothing. I used to run a double and it was fine. Now I run a compact and it's fine.
I quite like 50 up front and 11-25 at the back on an 11sp setup as you get good gearing for almost all terrain.
I used to run a double and a 12-27 on 9 speed and it was also fine, but harder to get it just right on the flat, and I was often at the top of the cassette.
I now have 2 bikes and the second runs a double with an 11-25 and while I am a bit fitter, I also find I am often at the top of the cassette.
I find that the little ring doesn't offer any more than it would on a compact setup...0 -
The 53/39 guys haven't helped me understand it other that to say maybe you like riding at low cadences - or that you put out awesome power and ride everywhere at 40kmh. I'm confident that I'm not a slow rider and I'm confident that I've been pretty fit in the last few years. I also don't think I ride at high cadences (I naturally pedal at around 85-90) - so I'm wondering which bit of your riding is different from mine.
I ride at about 85rpm or so as well; I can't comment on the awesomeness however as I do not have a power meter.
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[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19732340#p19732340]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:Bigger chainrings are better
But they are not for the OP. Which is who this thread is supposed to be about after all?Simon Masterson wrote:but a compact would suit you."You really think you can burn off sugar with exercise?" downhill paul0 -
Yeah - but threads would be dull of all they ever did was factually answer the OPs original question. And it's possible the OP has been interested in the less directly relevant pieces of the thread - it's not as if we've gone wildly OT.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0
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[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19732471#p19732471]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:The 53/39 guys haven't helped me understand it other that to say maybe you like riding at low cadences - or that you put out awesome power and ride everywhere at 40kmh.
I ride at about 85rpm or so as well; I can't comment on the awesomeness however as I do not have a power meter.
Well... at 85rpm, you're either saying you ride mostly at 37-42 kph, or that you cross çhain. If you really are averaging 37kph on most your rides, then fine, that's pretty awesome and a standard would suit you. If you don't ride that quick, then at 85 rpm you're certainly cross chaining and carrying around extra metal in the form of unused sprockets you don't need.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19732471#p19732471]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:The 53/39 guys haven't helped me understand it other that to say maybe you like riding at low cadences - or that you put out awesome power and ride everywhere at 40kmh.
I ride at about 85rpm or so as well; I can't comment on the awesomeness however as I do not have a power meter.
Well... at 85rpm, you're either saying you ride mostly at 37-42 kph, or that you cross çhain. If you really are averaging 37kph on most your rides, then fine, that's pretty awesome and a standard would suit you. If you don't ride that quick, then at 85 rpm you're certainly cross chaining and carrying around extra metal in the form of unused sprockets you don't need.
In the summer, I'd say that's (the former) about accurate; definitely when I take the TT bike out.0 -
A TT bike is a whole different kettle of fish: TTs, on the whole are short and don't include steep climbs or descents added to which you're in a skin suit and pointy hat riding in a super-aggressive position. It doesn't have a whole lot of relevance here.
I know that if I'm riding the Foil at say 20mph on the double and the 12-23 cassette, my chain line is far from optimal. But 20mph isn't a bad average speed for a solo 160k without tri-bars etc. And it would seem a bit silly to have the big cogs up front only to fit big cogs at the back as well - defeats the point. If you're always riding in a bunch or, better still, a full-on peleton, I can see that it starts to make sense for racing - but, as someone so rightly said earlier in the thread, we aren't all Chris Froome ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
Your not missing anything if you are comfortable with the gearing you have. I however would miss my standard doubles if I didn't have them.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0
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Training on a TT bike and racing on one are very different things...0
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[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19731190#p19731190]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:I don't see why you should need 34x28 to deal with the sort of hills the OP is describing.
And the whole thing about normal people and double chainsets is silly.Simon Masterson wrote:Bigger chainrings are better
The point is... most people aren't racing, either road, or TT and so won't be seeing average speeds around 40kph, or be pedalling at 50kph+.
Most normal people would struggle to put out the 6w/kg required to turn over a 34/28 at 75rpm up a 16% grade for much over a minute or so.
But maintaining that 'normal people' don't need compacts, or that 'bigger chainrings are better', or that you have a fitness problem if you can't get up a 16% grade in 34-28 just isn't helpful advice.
The truth is, outside of racing a compact is what most, even very fit riders would be better with (chainline, reduced weight, climbing range), and for those averaging less than 25kph they might even consider a triple, CX gearing, or a wide range cassette.0 -
You may want to read the first post I made in this thread - I have no particular interest in converting people to use doubles. There are several normal people that have posted in this thread and use standard gearing - your evangelism is rather wearing. Generalisations are of limited usefulness - it depends on the riding you do. There are plenty of normal people that find a 34t inner ring too small, and/or the 16 tooth gap annoying.0
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[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19733282#p19733282]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:You may want to read the first post I made in this thread
Ah yes but that was before you seized on the opportunity to tell us all how incredibly fast you are, again. "You really think you can burn off sugar with exercise?" downhill paul0 -
I am a long time advocate of compacts.
It is very rare that I feel the need for higher gearing and I often ride down mountains.
One bike has a 34/50 (the one that does the most climbing), the other a 36/50, which allows me to use the small ring that bit more if I want.
But I think it is important to qualify what type of rider you are when giving advice, so I would say I am a spinner, and in the top 5% of most timed climbs.0
