Grammar schools - yay or nay?
Comments
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well said - and its a yes to GS education why not school pupils on the basis of ability and potential, rather than drag the bright ones down to the lowest common denominator ?Of course it's bollox to say to kids that 50% are uni material.
You wouldn't stand in front of a PE class and tell them that 50% were capable to go on to represent the school, never mind the county, a club or even the country at their chosen sport would you? So why do we do it with education?
As bbrap points out, different kids have different abilities.http://veloviewer.com/SigImage.php?a=3370a&r=3&c=5&u=M&g=p&f=abcdefghij&z=a.png
Wiliers: Cento Uno/Superleggera R and Zero 7. Bianchi Infinito CV and Oltre XR20 -
I don't think many people would argue that kids shouldn't be schooled according to their ability and potential - grammar schools are not the only way to do that and certainly not ones that select based on an exam taken by 10 or 11 year olds and which is as much a test of whether the parents can afford private tuition as the ability of the child.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
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well said - and its a yes to GS education why not school pupils on the basis of ability and potential, rather than drag the bright ones down to the lowest common denominator ?Of course it's bollox to say to kids that 50% are uni material.
You wouldn't stand in front of a PE class and tell them that 50% were capable to go on to represent the school, never mind the county, a club or even the country at their chosen sport would you? So why do we do it with education?
As bbrap points out, different kids have different abilities.
Why not just do that by streaming in a comprehensive school? As I say, I went to a comprehensive until I was 13, and was placed in sets according to ability.0 -
Yay.
Not quite sure whats going on with them these days but feel the concept is sound.
Think privately educated primary kids should be banned though personally.
Shame its not a level playing field but it is what it is.
Streaming within same school may work I guess, but it would depend on the school and perhaps where it was.
Seems more sensible to go to a different school IMO though.
Fear the test if you are going through it all, you will lose friends.0 -
Quote: "If a kid has a disaster of a year 6 teacher or has recently arrived in the uk and has poor language skills or their parents are going through a divorce and they are affected by it etc are we really saying that should determine their future at age 10 or 11?"
Er, yes. Thats life.
If you think that getting into a grammar school is 'determining a future' then you are writing off comps.
Do not see why you cannot have grammars and streaming comps.
You could have a less pivotal test point (I agree its brutal and there are not many other things in life you get just one shot at), but there has to be a 'cut' somewhere, so parents whose kids don't make it are always going to be pi55ed off and angry.0 -
Quote: "If a kid has a disaster of a year 6 teacher or has recently arrived in the uk and has poor language skills or their parents are going through a divorce and they are affected by it etc are we really saying that should determine their future at age 10 or 11?"
Er, yes. Thats life.
If you think that getting into a grammar school is 'determining a future' then you are writing off comps.
Do not see why you cannot have grammars and streaming comps.
You could have a less pivotal test point (I agree its brutal and there are not many other things in life you get just one shot at), but there has to be a 'cut' somewhere, so parents whose kids don't make it are always going to be pi55ed off and angry.
And that is why they abolished the two tier secondary system.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Excuse my ignorance but I am not sure what that was.
Edit: just did a quick google. Thats nothing like Grammar v Comp.0 -
Excuse my ignorance but I am not sure what that was.
The two tiers - Upper tier Grammar school, Lower tier Comprehensive. It's late.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Excuse my ignorance but I am not sure what that was.
Edit: just did a quick google. Thats nothing like Grammar v Comp.
Now i'm confued.
Nurse!seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Search I did mentioned learning completely different subjects.
Maybe that was earlier in history?
You have to separate learning at some point so going to a different secondary school based on ability seems a good idea.
Trick is to make sure the comps are not crap.
If they are crap, then its all the more reason you do not want the bright kids in them!0 -
Perhaps it runs a bit deeper than that. You could argue that we need Comprehensive schools to fill the skills gap that we have to import to fill as much as we need the academics.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0
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Am sure it does.
I think we need both, and both to a good standard.0 -
Quote: "If a kid has a disaster of a year 6 teacher or has recently arrived in the uk and has poor language skills or their parents are going through a divorce and they are affected by it etc are we really saying that should determine their future at age 10 or 11?"
Er, yes. Thats life.
If you think that getting into a grammar school is 'determining a future' then you are writing off comps.
Do not see why you cannot have grammars and streaming comps.
You could have a less pivotal test point (I agree its brutal and there are not many other things in life you get just one shot at), but there has to be a 'cut' somewhere, so parents whose kids don't make it are always going to be pi55ed off and angry.
I don't think there is that much difference in what I'm saying and what you are saying - I agree there should be teaching by ability I just don't think it should be a single cut at such an early age. If we are going to have separate schools (and I'm not convinced we do need that) then let's make the split for year 9 at the earliest.
I'd be interested in what the evidence is though - if there is good research pointing pretty conclusively in the direction of an 11 plus I'll go along with it - ultimately it's what is best for the kids.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Am sure it does.
I think we need both, and both to a good standard.
Well that was very amicable. What do you have to do around here to get a good bun fight?
Will the one's who go to Grammar school wear helmets when they cycle to school and the one's from Comprehensive not bother? Or Vice Versa (if the Grammar school attendees knew the truth)?seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Am sure it does.
I think we need both, and both to a good standard.
Well that was very amicable. What do you have to do around here to get a good bun fight?
Will the one's who go to Grammar school wear helmets when they cycle to school and the one's from Comprehensive not bother? Or Vice Versa (if the Grammar school attendees knew the truth)?
Comp kids will wear helmets ........... just not do the straps up!0 -
I don't think there is that much difference in what I'm saying and what you are saying - I agree there should be teaching by ability I just don't think it should be a single cut at such an early age. If we are going to have separate schools (and I'm not convinced we do need that) then let's make the split for year 9 at the earliest.
I'd be interested in what the evidence is though - if there is good research pointing pretty conclusively in the direction of an 11 plus I'll go along with it - ultimately it's what is best for the kids.
There have been some studies, such as this one. It summarises existing research as no clear overall advantage to either system, whereas selective schooling offers a slight advantage to higher ability pupils, although that comes with the caveat that it's very difficult to control for other factors such as socio-economic backgrounds and the fact that comprehensives might be losing some of their more able pupils to grammar schools in neighbouring LEAs.0 -
I'm not sure of my real opinions on this due to my experiences. I lived in an area where the only schools you could go to was a comp that had been failing with a very bad reputation but on the way to becoming average or a former gs that was now a c of e comp. To get into that former gs, which was 30 minutes drive away, you had to be a regular at church for many years. I was not.
That led my parents, after we went to the local comp open day and saw how poor it was even when they put their best face on, they decided to somehow send me to another former gs but now an independent vs over an hour's drive away. They moved house to shorten that journey too. Basically all the former gs had been closed by mostly a Labour run or dominated council.
I got through the 11+ with good scores despite my training being one 11+ quiz book. I got put on the shortlist and faced a dead end, uneducated future. Reason for not getting in despite the highest scores they'd had for a state primary? I was competing against the prep schools who had been a given the test and answers the week or so before. Plus my head teacher didn't give them the answers needed in her report. To be fair nobody had even got to the entrance exam there so she didn't know what b was important to know.
So I got into a.former gs, now independent selective school, with a very good rep and results. I got the education I'd never have got in my local comp but would have got if they'd not closed the nearest gs.
This leads me into my dislike of Labour party. In the Blair years.and before too I think, you had a lot of former gs councillors and MPs. The hypocrites benefited from their gs education but prevented the next generation getting that benefit.
Now my current conflict is that I want to believe in a fully comprehensive system without any independent or public schools that can educate to the highest standards and b results. I believe in.an ideal world a fully.comp system is best if it was universally to the highest standard. It's not! So I believe a a selection system is a good idea. Seriously this is based solely v on my firm belief I would have walked out of my local comp at probably before 16 without anything. I got 9 gcse at a high grade, B.Eng and. Masters degree. I'm comfortable and live in a good area enjoying my life. That's what independent gs gave me and a state gs would have too but without my parents struggling, close to the edge financially.despite good jobs.
Well I've had my say, gs system isn't the answer but the current comp system isn't neither. We are failing kids at the top end of ability and the bottom, plus some areas we are failing all of the kids. Education needs overhaul so the best improve and the others improve quicker to match the best. No idea how to do that.0 -
Excuse my ignorance but I am not sure what that was.
The two tiers - Upper tier Grammar school, Lower tier Comprehensive. It's late.
The two tier system was GS and Secondary Modern. Comps were introduced to replace both. So put your buns away, keep them for another day.
See my post earlier in the thread re my experience at GS (Page 1, i think). We were streamed via the 11+ and then the streaming was further refined after 3 years, where the pupils who were struggling were entered into CSE instead of GCE exams.
Coincidentally, my GS was converted to a comprehensive when I was part way through. The difference was startling. :shock: In no way shape or form in a good way.0 -
Thank you Bally, I thought I was going to have to educate them.The two tier system was GS and Secondary Modern. Comps were introduced to replace both. So put your buns away, keep them for another day.
My experience with our two is that the best* schools near us are selective on ability, other schools suffer as a result of the selective schools skimming off some of the more able pupils. Our son is very clever, but didn't get in as out of 1400 applicants he was about 200th and the top 140 got in. He did get in to a very good church run comprehensive as I played the RC card. He's now in the 6th form having got very good results at GCSE. We've never regretted that he didn't get in to the other school as he has done very well and seems to have come through as a pretty well rounded individual.
For our daughter we didn't even try to get in to a selective school. She's doing very well in a comprehensive and is getting the support she needs as she is severely dyslexic. If she wants to drop a language, as they give her the most trouble, she can.
Selective comprehensives are more than capable of dealing with intelligent kids, and I believe it does the kids good to be in with a wide range of abilities for some things so they don't only mix with other intelligent kids. It's the ability of the staff and management of the school that makes a difference, not wether it's a grammar or comprehensive.
*best in terms of exam results but that doesn't paint the whole picture.0 -
Why did you put your son in for the test if you did not think being around other high achievers was the best option?
Sure there are lots of factors involved (other than just being a grammar), but you do not know how your child is going to be affected by them when you are picking a school, so that's largely irrelevant isn't it?0 -
You've got to cover all your options. I'm saying now that I don't think it would have been best for him using the benefit of hindsight. I can't say for certain either way, that's just what I feel now.Why did you put your son in for the test if you did not think being around other high achievers was the best option?0 -
A lot of people try to shoehorn their kids into GS, but it's no good being there if you cannot take the pace.
I would not put anything past some parents.
Faking a divorce to explain why their kid did badly on test day!
One guy I know had a meeting with a head and slapped 2k cash on the table!!0 -
My mother knows the secretary in one of them. Mother on the phone asking about the school was told the open evening for prospective pupils and parents was the following week. Mother replied it was much too far for her to go and see the school. When the secretary questioned the wisdom of sending a child to a school that was too far for the mother to get to even once she got a mouthful of abuse.A lot of people try to shoehorn their kids into GS, but it's no good being there if you cannot take the pace.
I would not put anything past some parents.
Faking a divorce to explain why their kid did badly on test day!
One guy I know had a meeting with a head and slapped 2k cash on the table!!
As with all things, some parents are nuts.
Agree that if a kid can't stand the pace it does them no good to be in one of them as they will always struggle to keep up.0
