Ultegra RD Woes
corvusxiii
Posts: 26
OK, here goes. Ultegra levers, RD and 12-25 105 10 speed cassette. New cable and outers and Sram PC 1051 chain.
I had the problem where one lever operation would not move the chain to the larger cog. A second operation would result in a change of gear but it might be noisey. A lever operation towards a smaller cog would not result in a gear change but would allow the chain to move over the cog and hence run quietly. A further lever operation towards a smaller cog may or may not work.
If I set up as per TSI SI-5X90B-003 then:
If I turn the 'outer cable adjusting barrel' anticlockwise, to take up the inner cable slack that allows the RD to move to second gear, then the cable is then too tight to allow the RD to return to the first gear position.
If I then turn the 'barrel adjuster ' clockwise to allow the RD to drop into the first gear position then I need more than one lever operation to attain second gear.
I have new cable and outers so there should be no 'elastic' cable or compressible outers.
See photos, I have marked up the various positions of the rotating barrel in the lever and the cable positions at the RD and everything seems? to be consistent and repeatable.
What does seem clear is that the first lever operation hardly moves the RD towards second gear
The only part that seems unduly slack is the guide jockey wheel which might explain poor gear changing but not the small RD movement on the first lever operation.
Any thoughts? Cheers time.
Can't show the photos but they show indelible ink marks on the rotating drum in the lever and the movement of the cable end at the RD. Both show what looks like regular and consistent operation.
I had the problem where one lever operation would not move the chain to the larger cog. A second operation would result in a change of gear but it might be noisey. A lever operation towards a smaller cog would not result in a gear change but would allow the chain to move over the cog and hence run quietly. A further lever operation towards a smaller cog may or may not work.
If I set up as per TSI SI-5X90B-003 then:
If I turn the 'outer cable adjusting barrel' anticlockwise, to take up the inner cable slack that allows the RD to move to second gear, then the cable is then too tight to allow the RD to return to the first gear position.
If I then turn the 'barrel adjuster ' clockwise to allow the RD to drop into the first gear position then I need more than one lever operation to attain second gear.
I have new cable and outers so there should be no 'elastic' cable or compressible outers.
See photos, I have marked up the various positions of the rotating barrel in the lever and the cable positions at the RD and everything seems? to be consistent and repeatable.
What does seem clear is that the first lever operation hardly moves the RD towards second gear
The only part that seems unduly slack is the guide jockey wheel which might explain poor gear changing but not the small RD movement on the first lever operation.
Any thoughts? Cheers time.
Can't show the photos but they show indelible ink marks on the rotating drum in the lever and the movement of the cable end at the RD. Both show what looks like regular and consistent operation.
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Comments
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Are the inner and outer cables the only components that you have replaced and was it all working correctly before you changed them?0
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Your description sounds like my 105 shifting when the inner cable starts to fray inside the shifter, but you say you have new cables... Have you recently removed a frayed or snapped cable? Could there be any stray strands in there?
Is the cable nipple securely seated where it should be in the shifter? Were all the cut ends of the outer cable cut square, opened up and finished neatly? Are they snug where they enter the shifter?
Finally, is it possible the rear mech hanger is bent? Bike crashed or fallen onto the drive side?0 -
Sounds like what happened to me when I used brake outers for gear outers.0
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So we have new inner and outers and chain. Everything looks fine and secure. The bike is second hand and I think it has always done this but once only rarely, it has got worse only slowly. I think it must be the lever as there isn't anything else. The hanger looks fine, no sign of damage to frame or RD.
Just checked now, when moving to second gear it takes about half the lever travel before the RD moves, maybe 3/4. Is this too much?0 -
So we have new inner and outers and chain. Everything looks fine and secure. The bike is second hand and I think it has always done this but once only rarely, it has got worse only slowly. I think it must be the lever as there isn't anything else. The hanger looks fine, no sign of damage to frame or RD.
Just checked now, when moving to second gear it takes about half the lever travel before the RD moves, maybe 3/4. Is this too much?
You cannot by eye see if the hanger is bent.
assuming cable tension is correct, the RD should move pretty much as the lever moves, are they 10sp levers?
With the gear cable disconnected and no chain fitted, does the rd move freely and strongly inwards and again outwards, smoothly with no sticking?
did you make sure the lever was fully set to the smallest cog - 10th - on the cassette before fixing the gear cable? and are the H and L screws set properly? do this with out the chain fitted.
go to the park tools web site and start again.0 -
I can only say that the hanger looks straight and that there is no damage to the bike or RD is apparent.
Yes they are 10 speed levers as there are 9 clicks.
No sticking at all.
Limits set okay.
Yes the lever is set to small cage position.
I'm thinking that a sticky cable would not stop a correctly set small cog (guide jockey set the outside line of the smallest cog) moving to the second smallest cog. (short of being ljammed solid).That is when the smallest cog is engaged, in normal set up, the RD doesn't rest on the limit but hangs off the cable that was tightened to take up the slack left after clamping the cable that enables the RD to reach the second cog after the first lever operation.
Mine doesn't, it takes say three lever operations to leave the smallest cog. I return the lever to second smallest cog and adjust that barrel adjuster to run on that cog and it won't return to the smallest.
It's like.....an elastic cable (no) or compressible outers (surely not) or some other slackness along the cable transmission or the first lever operation does not pull the cable enough to engage the second cog. Off for some wine.0 -
That is once the chain is centralised over the second cog the RD is centralised for all cogs irrespective of where the small cog limit is set. OK it could be set to far 'in' but the RD is set for the outside line and engages the smallest cog in the case. The wine is nice BTW. Feel free to argue the toss as I feel I'm missing something.0
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I've had something similar in the past when the indexing has been one cog out. Make sure that when you shift the chain onto the big chainring and the smallest cassette position, that there is a slight amount of slack in the rear gear cable tension - then set the barrel adjuster so that one click moves the chain up to the next sprocket, and then back down again. Then move the gears up and down the cassette, adjusting the cable only one or two clicks on the barrel to find the best average for gear changes in both directions. Then check the gear changes with the chain on the inner chainring
The limit should be set so that there is no tension on the cable when on the smallest cog, and the gear runs smoothly - otherwise changes are impossible to set up. That is the normal set up.
I always thought that cable pull was equal for all gears, but experience has taught me otherwise- and it is essential that the correct spocket is selected for initial setup.
Your worn jockey wheel is probably making it difficult to find the central position for the cable adjustment, and the new chain is possibly not flexible enough to align itself on the cassette without the positive alignment of the guide wheel.0 -
Paul, that's the problem, if I set the barrel adjuster to go to the second cog it won't return.
Re the RD small cog position.
Shimano says operate the lever enough times to engage the second cog. Then return the lever to the second cog position. The cable is now slack so you shorten the cable via the barrel adjuster to pull the RD away from the first cog towards the second. This shortening of the cable must pull the RD away from its limit in normal use. I think.0 -
Hmmmmm
It can only be:
Shifter
Cable
Derailleur
Hanger
I'd be inclined to get the hanger checked as you can't really sight it by eye if you're trying to snag a shifting issue.
Once you have the derailleur dialled in for top and bottom (little and big) sprocket positions via the limit screws, you should then adjust RD cable tension to achieve one sprocket change per click. Maybe set the limits before attaching the cable to the derailleur and make sure you're attaching the cable to the derailleur on the correct side of the clamp bolt as this can change the cable pull ratio.
If you're sure the hanger is straight, the cables are new and installed correctly, the derailleur is good and your limit screw/cable tension are correct, it can only be the shifter.
If you get to that stage, take it to a shop to sort. Unless you have the tool to check the hanger, you'll need to take it in anyway.
BTW, I've had hangers bent slightly a couple of times in transit and it usually results in non linear shifting across the cassette. Sticking between top and next sprocket sounds more like cable or shifter to me.0 -
Yeah, I'm really suspicious of the small movement on the first lever operation but the hanger is worth checking.
Can anyone check the first click on their lever and take note of tha amount oflever travel needed to move the RD?
I'm on about half to three quarters!0 -
Yeah, I'm really suspicious of the small movement on the first lever operation but the hanger is worth checking.
Can anyone check the first click on their lever and take note of tha amount oflever travel needed to move the RD?
I'm on about half to three quarters!
at the lever there is spring slack, take that up and then the RD moves in time with the lever, so a 15 degree arc before first click, after spring slack taken up.
So the shift from the smallest cog, 10th to 9th is pretty instance, this is on a ultegra 10sp set up, using internal cabling.
I think you need to reset the limits, so the jockey wheel is prefect centred under the smallest cog with no cable fitted.
Make sure that all cables are properly seated in their respective stops, esp the one under the handle bar tape, if it is 6700 shifter, make sure cable is running in correct grove under BB and that you ve a nice long loop of cable from frame stop to RD.
Also, check you ve mounted gear cable at correct position on pinch bolt clamp, that the upper jockey wheel is the one with the side to side play.
You should also see how freely the cable releases when not connected to RD and you apply hand tension to the cable and then move lever, it should release freely as you change back to the 10th smallest cog.0 -
10sp? It's just under 5mm.
[edit] I Sorry, I answered a different question. The one that was in my head... Lever movement is ~45mm to first click on my 6700.0 -
Bob ion, Mty lever end is moving 4 to 5 cm just to start moving the RD. The click to second is almost there. When it does click the RD has hardly moved.0
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Where as if I pull on the exposed down tube cable the RD moves straight away.0
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So it sounds as if either the cable is badly installed or the lever is fubared.0
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as said, dis the cable and see what it pulls and releases when you hold cable and move lever. if it that is ok, then it must be outer cable not seated in each stop properly, if it doesnt pull/rel cable then lever is broken0
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The cable seems to pull in a consistent manner, I marked it's movement against a ruler. Yet the RD hardly moves at first click. Going out now to get drunk again. Thanks for the responses.0
