VAG

essex-commuter
essex-commuter Posts: 2,188
edited September 2015 in Commuting chat
VAG - :mrgreen:

So this emissions malarkey, will VW see a reduction in sales or doesn't the consumer care as long as it doesn't affect the tax bracket their car sits in?

Comments

  • Squawk
    Squawk Posts: 132
    Won't make a dent, though they may have to give a few discounts to secure sales. If I was going to buy a golf yesterday I'd still be going to buy a golf today, I'd just be asking for a bit more off due to the inefficiency.
  • If VAG are at it you can bet everyone else is pulling the same or other strokes.

    The only difference is that VAG got caught.
  • VAG - :mrgreen:

    So this emissions malarkey, will VW see a reduction in sales or doesn't the consumer care as long as it doesn't affect the tax bracket their car sits in?

    Nice title :lol:

    I doubt it will impact sales that much. My perception is that VW's are bought for build quality and safety over emissions and that wont change in the near future. I will be interested in what happens regarding the class action suits in the US and the VW/Fiat case in Italy though.
  • rower63
    rower63 Posts: 1,991
    I wonder if all current owners are going to to retrospectively charged the extra Vehicle Excise Duty implied? :mrgreen:

    We, of course, are exempt bacause "we don't pay car tax" as motorists are constantly reminding us :wink:
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  • I wonder if all current owners are going to to retrospectively charged the extra Vehicle Excise Duty implied? :mrgreen:

    We, of course, are exempt bacause "we don't pay car tax" as motorists are constantly reminding us :wink:

    Fair point(s)!!
  • I wonder if all current owners are going to to retrospectively charged the extra Vehicle Excise Duty implied? :mrgreen:

    We, of course, are exempt bacause "we don't pay car tax" as motorists are constantly reminding us :wink:

    Fair point(s)!!

    Can you imagine the chaos that would cause. I half want the government to do it just to see what happens. Doubt it will happen though. Any tax difference would be included in any fine handed out if at all.

    Though Id like to know what lab conditions mean. I know that emissions are "tested" when new models are released in a controlled environment but does that apply to your standard MOT process once the car is in the real world and if not what the discrepancy is between figures?
  • there has to be a serious doubt whether they will even exist after the US authorities have finished with them plus any class action lawsuits from opportunistic owners.
  • It's as bent as the MPG figures.

    There is no way anyone can get the MPG quoted by manufacturers, unless they are an underweight dwarf, driving a stripped out car in a vacuum.

    The only chance we have for comparison is that all the figures are equally as skewed.
  • secretsam
    secretsam Posts: 5,117
    If VAG are at it you can bet everyone else is pulling the same or other strokes.

    The only difference is that VAG got caught.

    How very cynical. But exactly what I thought!!!! :oops:

    It's just a hill. Get over it.
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    I drive a 1.6 TDC1 Audi A3. It's possible it's one of the vehicles fitted with the dodgy software :roll: . Now the engine's done 40k it seems capable of the fuel consumption they claim for it; yesterday it averaged 70mpg over a steady 110 mile journey, but that's with only me in it and driving like a pensioner. Loaded with family and luggage and haring round the M25 it's worse than the older 1.9 TDCi it replaced.

    It's true that I chose it specifically to minimise my company car tax liability, so their official emissions data were a factor. What kind of emissions it produces in the real world I have no idea...

    I wonder if the other manufacturers weren't also cheating the system, will they go after VAG for compensation for lost sales due to unfair competition??

    Could be a very big bill by the time it's all sorted...
  • peat
    peat Posts: 1,242
    This is a post i spotted on another forum, from a chap who works in the road car biz, that seemed to cut through the BS quite well (to me at least):
    What VW have done is this; their diesel engine ECUs include some coding known in the industry as a "cycle beater". Cycle beaters recognise when a car is undergoing an emissions test. They can do this because the drive cycles (consisting of set speeds and acc/decelerations for certain durations) utilised for emissions testing are very prescriptive and consequently, recognisable. The drive cycle in the US is defined by the EPA and in Europe by the EC, known as the New European Drive Cycle (NEDC), although it's actually some 40 years old now! Both cycles are different and consequently pretty hard to compare, although they do both follow the same prescriptive philosophy. When the ECU/cycle beater recognises an emissions test is occurring the engine then employs a mode that improves emissions test results and there are several ways of doing this. This is on the assumption that one cycle beater can recognise either of the two drive cycles.
    Cycle beaters are not illegal in Europe, all the OEMs use every trick they can to get the best result possible. Why wouldn't they when the loopholes are there and they're operating in such a competitive market!? Cycle beaters are only one such trick and many, if not all, of the OEMs are at it and not just for emissions testing. However, much like tax avoidance, it is up to the legislators to close these loopholes, rather than publicly condone an OEM for not sticking within the spirit of the regulations. They have not broken the law after all. However, in the US things are different...
    When certifying a car for sale in the EU an OEM is only obliged to present a production specification vehicle for approval that must then pass the test there and then, as presented. These tests are witnessed by an authority, often a government department, to ensure the test is conducted correctly. Even for retests during production runs, conducted on randomly selected cars, (known as Conformity of Production), the car must only pass the test there and then, as presented. Therefore, the production vehicles have cycle beaters built in to their ECUs so they are representative of production specification cars. Again, none of this is illegal in the EU.
    This is where VW have fallen down though. In the US, approval tests are self certified and generally unwitnessed, although I'm told emissions are the exception and the EPA do witness these tests. The OEM presents a test report as evidence that they comply with the regulation and in doing so are stating they are compliant AT ALL TIMES, not just in the test laboratory. This is where the US and EU approval processes differ the most.
    Understandably, VW have pursued global build standards for their vehicles to save cost and complexity, whereby the same specification of car can be sold in the EU or US. However, in doing so they have failed to remove the cycle beaters that are legal in the EU and contravened the US regulations. Whether this has happened because of arrogance in taking a (mis)calculated risk or a lack of respect for the US regulations, we cannot say for definite. All we do know is that VW got caught and the US legal system is such that woe betide anyone who does not comply with their regulations, they'll be hit by punitive fines that could kill them off for good. VW stole a march on everyone else with diesel sales into the US and a conspiracy theorist might like to suggest that a thorn in GM and Ford's side has now been dealt with...but of course there is zero evidence for this.
    So that's what happened to VW and the consequences for them and OEMs importing into the US as a whole could be huge. Based on the numbers that have been mentioned, I would say VW's marketing budget, including motorsport activities, could be at risk from the amount they'll have to pay out in legal fees and fines over the coming months.
    Emissions were already a political hot potato and things could be about to get hotter... For example, the EC will likely be asking questions of KBA, the German approval authority, for potentially knowingly approving vehicles that do not comply with the spirit of the law. How much of a legal case, the EC and anyone else in the EU will have, as the law has not actually been broken, remains to be seen. One for the lawyers to fight out...
    Also, the UK is currently being fined by the EC for below par air quality. You'd think the Environment Agency will now be arguing that this poor air quality is not their fault but the fault of VWs and perhaps other cars, not necessarily having fully EU compliant exhaust emissions...despite the approvals being in place from KBA. How this all pans out will be fascinating and the consequences could be huge. It is worth pointing out that the public have nothing to worry about, this should not cost them any money or inconvenience. A recall to recalibrate ECUs and remove cycle beaters is possible though I suppose, pointless as that would be. It could be a lucrative time for emissions test organisations too.
    I would imagine engine calibration departments across European OEMs importing into the US are busy and uncomfortable places to work at the moment.
    I hope that sheds some light and understanding into what's happened and what the implications could be going forward. As always, don't believe everything you read in the mainstream media.
    Personally, I feel sorry for VW and fear for their and my beloved Audi's future but it seems they could've brought it on themselves, time will tell...
  • dhope
    dhope Posts: 6,699
    This is a post i spotted on another forum, from a chap who works in the road car biz, that seemed to cut through the BS quite well (to me at least):
    I wish these sort of posts would end up in newspapers rather than the usual "everyone's at it, hand in the trough, bloody CEOs, just as bad as bankers/politicians/tax dodgers" tripe that tends to proliferate.
    It's nice to have some clue about what/why something's has happened.
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  • This is a post i spotted on another forum, from a chap who works in the road car biz, that seemed to cut through the BS quite well (to me at least):
    I wish these sort of posts would end up in newspapers rather than the usual "everyone's at it, hand in the trough, bloody CEOs, just as bad as bankers/politicians/tax dodgers" tripe that tends to proliferate.
    It's nice to have some clue about what/why something's has happened.

    +1, that's an excellent sum up.
  • Won't be long before you get a multitude of cold callers ringing you up to ask if you have been wrongly sold TDi..............



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  • Yes - that's a good summary and, in some ways it seems, the auto industry matches the medical device industry. The issue will be that, like with the medical device industry following the silicon breast implant scandal in France, the EU legislators will be forced to close the loopholes. The world is forever becoming a regulated place: possibly why I get approached 4-5 times a week asking if I want a job.
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  • I would guess it happens in most industries; Computer benchmarks are laughable in a lot of cases, for instance.

    I suspect Mrs. Elephant's Skoda Yeti will be on the list, Would be a real shame if they went under, one of the few manufacturers to offer something different.
  • This is a post i spotted on another forum, from a chap who works in the road car biz, that seemed to cut through the BS quite well (to me at least):
    What VW have done is this; their diesel engine ECUs include some coding known in the industry as a "cycle beater".

    I wondered what this thread had to do with commuting, but then I saw it ... cycle beaters. I see them every day.
    Shut up, knees!

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  • there has to be a serious doubt whether they will even exist after the US authorities have finished with them plus any class action lawsuits from opportunistic owners.

    They can just bankrupt VW USA and move on.

    Seriously though, we live in a messed up world where a US manufacturer can hide something for 10 years and result in the death of 130 people and only be fined $900million.
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  • there has to be a serious doubt whether they will even exist after the US authorities have finished with them plus any class action lawsuits from opportunistic owners.

    They can just bankrupt VW USA and move on.

    Seriously though, we live in a messed up world where a US manufacturer can hide something for 10 years and result in the death of 130 people and only be fined $900million.

    now it seems that VW Finance could be downgraded which could lead to real problems
  • there has to be a serious doubt whether they will even exist after the US authorities have finished with them plus any class action lawsuits from opportunistic owners.

    They can just bankrupt VW USA and move on.

    Seriously though, we live in a messed up world where a US manufacturer can hide something for 10 years and result in the death of 130 people and only be fined $900million.

    now it seems that VW Finance could be downgraded which could lead to real problems

    Enough problems to let me keep my Caravelle for free?
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  • there has to be a serious doubt whether they will even exist after the US authorities have finished with them plus any class action lawsuits from opportunistic owners.

    They can just bankrupt VW USA and move on.

    Seriously though, we live in a messed up world where a US manufacturer can hide something for 10 years and result in the death of 130 people and only be fined $900million.

    now it seems that VW Finance could be downgraded which could lead to real problems

    Enough problems to let me keep my Caravelle for free?

    If it is a company car then you could find yourself in a penal tax bracket so I would demand compensation. If not then I am sure you bought it for it's eco friendliness so join a class action. I have never owned a VW but as a citizen of London I will be joining any class action that is attempted to prove they are killing us.