Living with tubular tyres.
ben@31
Posts: 2,327
I'm interested in hearing people's experiences of regularly riding tubular tyres...
I'm looking to pick up a nice wheelset in the end of season clearances. However tubular or clincher?
I'm doing regular long distance rides for fitness and sportives. Not racing.
With todays expensive wheels and tyres is there still much of a difference between tubular and clinchers? Or has the gap narrowed? Are tubulars worth getting? Can you live with tubulars day to day? As what puts me off is punctures in the middle of nowhere miles from home. I can quite easily replace my current clincher inners no problem but have no experience of fitting tubulars. I've seen YouTube vids of guys saying how easy it is to replace a tubular but the vids looked a bit "indoors lab conditions" and not in "outdoor real world conditions" ( Roadside, Tired, Damp,cold, windy, fading light and things going wrong).
Thanks.
I'm looking to pick up a nice wheelset in the end of season clearances. However tubular or clincher?
I'm doing regular long distance rides for fitness and sportives. Not racing.
With todays expensive wheels and tyres is there still much of a difference between tubular and clinchers? Or has the gap narrowed? Are tubulars worth getting? Can you live with tubulars day to day? As what puts me off is punctures in the middle of nowhere miles from home. I can quite easily replace my current clincher inners no problem but have no experience of fitting tubulars. I've seen YouTube vids of guys saying how easy it is to replace a tubular but the vids looked a bit "indoors lab conditions" and not in "outdoor real world conditions" ( Roadside, Tired, Damp,cold, windy, fading light and things going wrong).
Thanks.
"The Prince of Wales is now the King of France" - Calton Kirby
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For the type of riding you do, I would go clinchers for simplicity and ease of fixing a puncture on the side of a road.
Some people do ride tubs for training and they are (apparently) more puncture resistant and IMO they do roll slightly better, but the trade off is that they are a lot more expensive to buy, plus if you puncture on a Tub then changing it will be a pain on the side of the road and it will cost a lot more to fix (unless you have the skills yourself which 99% of people don't). So they you will probably just bin the tub and buy a new one.
Clincher tyres have come on so much nowadays that for every day riding I would struggle to look at tubsObsessed is a word used by the lazy to describe the dedicated!0 -
I was riding with a fiend a couple of months ago and he was riding tubs, one of which punctured. Someone in the group had some Vittoria Pit Stop solution and that inflated/fixed the tyre in about 30 seconds. He did have to bin the tyre when he got home though so, along with the price of the Pit Stop, that was an expensive day out.0
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Taking a spare tub, rolled and pre glued will make road side work actually easier, than repairing a clincher tyre as long as you can rip the old tub off without too much drama.
But on training rides it really isnt the best policy to use tubs for most people.
Pit Stop has 50/50 rate of success... I have had a bad season of punctures in racing this season, so I know from experience and yes it is expensive.
My training wheels are clinchers for a reason - peace of mind when you are 3 hours out from home.0 -
I find clinchers FAR more puncture resistant than tubs. Unless you're racing and you need every % gain - stick with normal tyres.0
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My TT bike has a tub at the front and a clincher at the back. I like tubs, the ride quality IS nice (though I run 19-21mm, so not exactly a cushioned ride), but the simple reality is that times have changed. Back when every serious cyclist ran tubs, both clincher rims and tyres were significantly heavier and more geared toward touring and recreational cycling. Now that the tyres are much better and the rims are weight competitive, I would have to say that unless you are really serious about them and want to make the commitment to learning how to use them, it probably isn't worth it for you.
Personally I think tubs are on the way out. The proposition that clinchers can offer lower rolling resistance is nothing new, but now that they're being used more by pro riders in TTs, and tubeless technology is getting so good, I think this is the way things will go.0 -
Thanks for the replies.
I'd hope tyre sealant would have a 100% success rate.
What is it like trying to get a glued tubular off the wheel while stood on the roadside? Are they strongly bonded on?"The Prince of Wales is now the King of France" - Calton Kirby0 -
I find clinchers FAR more puncture resistant than clinchers.
u wot m8?0 -
Thanks for the replies.
I'd hope tyre sealant would have a 100% success rate.
What is it like trying to get a glued tubular off the wheel while stood on the roadside? Are they strongly bonded on?
Everyone has their own method of glueing, but I leave around 3-4" of unglued tub on the section opposite the valve. This makes it easy to get the tub working off the rim. I use a pre-glued tub as a spare (Sungod suggestion) and once inflated can ride hard even in corners without fear of the tub coming off the rim.
I've had to replace 2 tubs and both were blow outs; 1 from a crash and the other from hitting a submerged pothole in surface flooding. You can use Pitstop or an equivalent and it does work a lot of the time as it does for clinchers and tubeless. It just depends on how lucky or unlucky you are with the puncture.
I've recently returned to clinchers simply because they've moved on in the world for comfort, rolling resistance, width availability and puncture resistance. I've just had my first puncture after around 800 miles not because of anything piercing the tyre, but because the butyl around the valve failed. Yes it took longer to fix than swapping tubs, but if that had been me swapping tubs, I then had no further spare in the event I got another puncture and miles from home and solo, it wasn't an option I'd like.I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0 -
I ride tubs (Vittoria corsa mostly). It might depend largely on the kinds of roads you ride. I do all of my riding on really good quality tarmac and only very rarely do I ride in a big town or a city where there's a risk of sharps. Also, there's no flint or such like where I live. Such factors, along with riding in the wet, increase the risk of flatting, which is an expensive hassle.
That being said, on a recent ride, in the middle of nowhere in the south of France I noticed an odd ticking noise from my rear wheel. On inspection I found a nail stuck in the tyre. I pulled it out, fully expecting the accompanying hiss and deflation, but nothing happened and the tyre stayed fully inflated. And this was a Vittoria Corsa which had about 3000km in it.
For me it's because I love the feel of riding the Campy Boras with top quality tubs - I could swap the wheels off season for something more utilitarian but I ride to have fun (as we all do) and riding on those wheels with those tyres is simply much more enjoyable! If I flatted more often then I'd possibly reconsider. And don't worry about gluing; it's way easier than it looks.
So I guess if you flat regularly then think carefully about what it's going to cost. Most people I ride with use tubs all the time but I don't think it's like that in the UK...
I've been exclusively on tubs for two years now and have not considered switching back to clinchers.0 -
I ride both and the tubs feel better on the road.
Personally I use tape for the tubs. Changing a tub is different but no more difficult than a clincher, except you won't pinch a tub. It is the cost. There are a couple of places you send your tubs to repair, but that is still £15.
But then again I rode a set of tubs through half last season and most of this season before I got puncture through a cut in the tyre. The clinchers probably had about 5 or 6 punctures, so not a huge amount more.
If you have a bad day though, you normally will get somebody to through you an inner tube ..... but not a spare tub.0 -
I put tubs on my 'best bike' at the start of his year so don't have loads of experience but so far so good. I've punctured once, Vitoria pit stop worked for me so no probs there. Mounting the tubs onto the rims for the 1st time was a bit of an ordeal but the 2nd time, with a few tricks learnt, was 10 times more straight forward.
I'm doing the same type of riding as you by the sounds of it Ben so maybe tubs are a bit unnecessary but I'm very pleased with them. I actually really enjoy gluing & mounting them and the process generally. I'm not sure I feel any gain from using them in real terms other than they make me happy! I'm also a bit of a weight weenie so the weight saving was also a factor (Although mainly just in my head...)
I'm not sure I'd start comuting on them just because they are pricey relative to clinchers but if and when I upgrade my best wheelset it'll be for another tubular set.Cannondale caad7 ultegra
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Brother Swift0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19705289#p19705289]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:
Personally I think tubs are on the way out. The proposition that clinchers can offer lower rolling resistance is nothing new, but now that they're being used more by pro riders in TTs, and tubeless technology is getting so good, I think this is the way things will go.
I tend to agreeleft the forum March 20230 -
I've been riding tubs in the 'good bike' season for the last couple of years. I stick some Stans sealant in the rear and so far so good. I usually carry a spare, but have never needed it. I may have had one puncture because the rear was down to 60psi the next morning and has since held its pressure. So I assume the sealant fixed it.
My reason for using tubs is that cheap tubular rims seem much more likely to be reliable than cheap clinchers. I've had no qualms at all about carbon rims in the Pyrenees or Alps. The bonus is that over-heating won't pop the tyre and if you do pick up a puncture at high speed the tyre will stay on and give you the possibility of recovering the situation.
I use Continental tyres, because they seem to handle the typical UK road surface without cutting up or ripping. I had a pair of Vittoria Corsa (clincher, but not relevant) that rode beautifully but lasted about 500 miles before the rear exploded on a patch of gravelly road.
So you can easily live with tubulars day to day, carry a spare tyre for emergencies and use some sealant. I think this gives you better protection than clinchers and a spare tube, even two spare tubes. The sealant will fix the ordinary puncture, you don't get pinch flats, and if you rip a tyre carcass you have a spare. If one of your friends on clinchers wrecks a tyre you can lend them your spare to get them home.
The spare tyre fits in a jersey pocket. FWIW.
Clinchers are also great, of course. But the appeal of tubulars on an engineering front is strong. Tubeless seems to have much potential, but they're still a bit specialist and retain the structural issue with the wheel rim having to take the strain of inflation.
Paul0 -
I've been riding tubs in the 'good bike' season for the last couple of years. I stick some Stans sealant in the rear and so far so good. I usually carry a spare, but have never needed it. I may have had one puncture because the rear was down to 60psi the next morning and has since held its pressure. So I assume the sealant fixed it.
Short memory...
You could have done with a spare tyre when you had to be rescued in Shipston upon Stour last year, when the valve broke as you tried to fix a puncture with sealant...
I have used tubs for a while... the ride is great, but they puncture just as often as clinchers with the equivalent inner tube (e.g. latex)... why wouldn't they, given they are made of the same material? When they do, it's a 20 quid repair including postage, when possible or more for a new tyre. Replacing the tyre on the road is not difficult... the issue for me is money and the scarce availability of tyres at a budget price.
If you use them all year round, you are probably facing a 200-300 pounds bill every year, if you use them only in summer maybe half is enoughleft the forum March 20230 -
Not sure about your math ugo.
In simple terms if you pay £50 for a tub and glue that means you're getting 4-6 punctures a year?. Obv distance traveled and quality of road surface makes a difference but that seems high to me. (I know I'm virtually guaranteed to get puncture later today now but..)
Having said that, if cost is a deciding factor, then tubs are an expensive habit!Cannondale caad7 ultegra
S-works Tarmac sl5 etap
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Brother Swift0 -
Not sure about your math ugo.
In simple terms if you pay £50 for a tub and glue that means you're getting 4-6 punctures a year?. Obv distance traveled and quality of road surface makes a difference but that seems high to me. (I know I'm virtually guaranteed to get puncture later today now but..)
Having said that, if cost is a deciding factor, then tubs are an expensive habit!
If you use them year round that's say 5,000 miles, which means 4 tyres (bicycles have 2 tyres not one)... which is 150-250 depending on offers and brands. Then you add the cost of glue/tape, puncture repairs and/or spray sealants... add a tyre that you will need to bin due to that bad cut for good measure and you are well over the 300 quid ball park.... it can be a lot more if you are unlucky.
Obviously if you only ride them in summer in a non puncture prone area, you half the mileage and the cost.
When my cycling budget was dramatically reduced last year, tubulars were the first thing I got rid of. For UK use I got 3 punctures in less than 1,000 miles... I think it's average. I used them a lot more in Italy and France, where I never punctured though.
Tubeless tyres are also expensive, but at least they are very cheap to repair and if you are brave you can use normal clinchers, at least for the bigger (28 mm +) sizesleft the forum March 20230 -
Recently picked up a set of Planet X CT45 Tubulars fitted with Vittoria Corse's and have gone through the learning curve of caring for tubs ( Thanks in most parts to Sungod and JSGI et.al)
After about only 500 miles first impressions are very good. My tubs came taped originally, and just because I wanted to know the providence of the work myself, I took them off and Glued back on with Vittoria Mastik.
Two coats drying on the rims at 24 hour intervals and one coat on the tubs ( pre glued a spare at the same time) then a final coat on the rims with the Tubs fitted about 5 minutes after this application. then left to dry for a further 24 hours ( to be honest a bit of a Faff when your busting to ride your spangly new wheels)
I initially started out carrying the spare tub, but I couldn't really get it to fold down to a size which was convenient, I now unless the conditions aren't that good ride with just the pit stop, No issues so far touch wood.
Initial impressions is that this wheel set combo certainly spins up, holds speed and climbs better than my previous clinchers ( Ksyriums) and the ride also feels more forgiving ( the Tubs are only 22s )
Slight concern is that whilst I was at the TOB in Notts I spoke to the Vittoria Service team, they checked my Tubs and said I d done a pretty good job for first effort, and they would always recommend Glueing, Funnily enough with their mastic. They did say the 3 coats approach was probably a bit OTT and 1 plus a second application coat would suffice.
By contrast a mate pointed out that Planet X will not Warranty their Tubular rims if you Glue them and not just use tape. I asked if they provide a warrantied Gluing service ( They Don't) so basically Planet X wont warranty their rims, if you Glue the Tubs on ( which is what Vittoria have recommended) seems a bit Odd.0 -
By contrast a mate pointed out that Planet X will not Warranty their Tubular rims if you Glue them and not just use tape. I asked if they provide a warrantied Gluing service ( They Don't) so basically Planet X wont warranty their rims, if you Glue the Tubs on ( which is what Vittoria have recommended) seems a bit Odd.
It is annoying. As the Vittoria team pointed out, glue is far superior, as an adhesive, but it might induce delamination of the rim once you remove the tyre, hence PX won't warrant the wheels. They should really warrant all those issues which are not related to delamination, that would be the correct thing to doleft the forum March 20230 -
Now I (usually) carry a spare, have sealant in the tyre beforehand.... And carry gas rather than a pump. It's a learning experience.I've been riding tubs in the 'good bike' season for the last couple of years. I stick some Stans sealant in the rear and so far so good. I usually carry a spare, but have never needed it. I may have had one puncture because the rear was down to 60psi the next morning and has since held its pressure. So I assume the sealant fixed it.
Short memory...
You could have done with a spare tyre when you had to be rescued in Shipston upon Stour last year, when the valve broke as you tried to fix a puncture with sealant...
I'm not at all convinced there was even a puncture there, I think the valve extender may have leaked, there was no evidence at all of an actual problem in the tyre on close examination. I changed that tyre pre-emptively 1500 miles later before a big event, which in retrospect was way too early. Its successor is looking a bit worn now at 3000 miles and will get changed next spring. The front might do three seasons. But this is the same lifetime for all similar tyres of whatever construction.
Anyway since that black Sunday in Shipston two summers ago I've not needed either the spare tyre or the gas. So it goes.
You don't get pinch punctures, so more robust over pot holes or stones, and you can run lower pressures without increasing that risk. May be important for some. But the same is true for tubeless. I think the reduced susceptibility to heat is a significant advantage if you go to the mountains. Same is true for tubeless...I have used tubs for a while... the ride is great, but they puncture just as often as clinchers with the equivalent inner tube (e.g. latex)... why wouldn't they, given they are made of the same material? When they do, it's a 20 quid repair including postage, when possible or more for a new tyre. Replacing the tyre on the road is not difficult... the issue for me is money and the scarce availability of tyres at a budget price.
So far I've worn them out rather than had them fail. I was planning to try tubeless last winter, but the old GP4000S clincher I had on the rear just wouldn't give up. And I had just one puncture, which manifested as a flat tyre the next day rather than interfering in a ride.If you use them all year round, you are probably facing a 200-300 pounds bill every year, if you use them only in summer maybe half is enough
I like the engineering purity of a tubular rim and tubular tyre, compared to the crudity of a clincher rim. If you run sealant and carry a spare then I think you are in a better position than someone running clinchers and carrying a tube, which is generally considered adequate.
IMO if you want to run cheap rims that are safe then consider tubular, especially if you haunt the classifieds for bargains. And then there's no reason why they would be less reliable than any other construction in day to day use.
Still might try tubeless this winter. Except that I have some clinchers in the shed with life left in them. And I was riding with a chap the other week who was using tubeless, got a puncture that the sealant didn't touch even though it was a small hole, and then he couldn't get the tyre back on over the spare tube by himself. Even with warm hands (long story) it was a real struggle.
Paul0 -
FWIW, I run a mix of tubs and tubeless. Tubs for all serious riding, and tubeless for most commuting. All my tubs are taped, using Jantex 14 on carbon rims and Jantex 76 on alloy. Tubs roll demonstrably better, and carbon tubular rims are considerably lighter (about 200-300g across the wheelset, like for like).
I carry a can of sealant (a Velox equivalent to Pitstop) and a pretaped tub in an Arundel Tubi saddlebag, along with a tyre lever, a combination pump/gas head and two gas cans. I've had three punctures on tubs this year (in about 6000km); one was fixed with sealant, the other two needed me to swap in the spare tub, which I can do faster than some of my club mates can change a clincher, especially because I don't need to check for flints etc. Of the two punctured tubs that had to be changed, one was easily fixed with tubeless sealant when I got home (and has done 1000km since); the other was toast (big cut). I've also had one puncture that I noticed on tubeless, where the sealant failed to seal the hole and I had to put a tube in. That tire had to be retired, but after 2000km of London commuting it was cut to bits. Most of the time you don't even notice punctures in tubeless until you check your tire pressure and it's lower than you expect.
Tyre pressure and compound matters with tubs. In my experience they are more puncture-resistant than clinchers (certainly I seem to puncture less than my clubmates) but only if you run the high pressures of which they are capable. By the same token, using "winter" tubs in summer - e.g. Vittoria Pave - leads to rapid wear, and then to punctures, while summer tubs at very high pressure aren't ideal for greasy spring roads.
I use a wide variety of tubs:
Schwalbe One 24c - my current favourite, on my best road bikes. Butyl inner (says received wisdom) - certainly hold pressure for ever. Grip well, roll fast, no punctures so far...
Specialized S-Works Turbo 23c - came with some wheels, used on my S5 semi-TT bike, dry roads only
Mavic Yksion Griplink 23c - ditto, now on the back of my S5 replacing cut-up Spesh; jury out.
Challenge Strada 25c - comes up small, gumwall, on my classic steel, ride beautifully. One puncture so far, fixed at the roadside with sealant.
Vittoria Pave 24c and 25c - the smaller ones are some team protos I picked up from Planet-X, the 25s are current release. Excellent winter tyre, but needed Caffe Lattex to fix - the Velox can wasn't up to it. Wears quickly on warm dry roads. I use these on my fast winter wheelset.
Vittoria Corsa Evo CX - a bit hard for my tastes, come up small and I'm running 21c in any case. On my spare road bike; smooth roads only.
Tubeless (apart from the cross bike) I've only used Hutchinson Intensives. Neither light, nor supple, but pretty well bomb-proof.0 -
I would never pay more than £50 for a tub, and I recently picked up Vittoria Corsas for 40 Euros each.
I'm philosophical about punctures; a) they're pretty rare (for me anyway), 1 or 2 a year over 15 000km.
If you do puncture and you can't seal it long term (50/50 in my experience), then at least you get a new tyre! No consolation obviously if you've just put a tub on, but if the tub in question had done 4000km+ (rear) then it would have needed changing soon anyway.
Intrigued to try the Schwalbe One 24 - but how much?!0 -
About £50 each from Wiggle last time I bought some. Worth it, IMO.I would never pay more than £50 for a tub, and I recently picked up Vittoria Corsas for 40 Euros each.
I'm philosophical about punctures; a) they're pretty rare (for me anyway), 1 or 2 a year over 15 000km.
If you do puncture and you can't seal it long term (50/50 in my experience), then at least you get a new tyre! No consolation obviously if you've just put a tub on, but if the tub in question had done 4000km+ (rear) then it would have needed changing soon anyway.
Intrigued to try the Schwalbe One 24 - but how much?!
Planet-X remains the go-to site for cheap tubs, though, if you're not too fussed about nominal size or this year's model. Often have deals on Paves.0 -
Planet-X remains the go-to site for cheap tubs, though, if you're not too fussed about nominal size or this year's model. Often have deals on Paves.
Yet Pave' tubulars are very slow tyres... I have managed to achieve the same times lapping Richmond Park with chunky 32-37 mm touring clinchers... defies the point of running tubularsleft the forum March 20230 -
I would never pay more than £50 for a tub, and I recently picked up Vittoria Corsas for 40 Euros each.
I'm philosophical about punctures; a) they're pretty rare (for me anyway), 1 or 2 a year over 15 000km.
If you do puncture and you can't seal it long term (50/50 in my experience), then at least you get a new tyre! No consolation obviously if you've just put a tub on, but if the tub in question had done 4000km+ (rear) then it would have needed changing soon anyway.
Intrigued to try the Schwalbe One 24 - but how much?!
I share this sentiment really.
I get very few punctures even though I do most of my riding in and around London and put in quite high mileage. I think this has allowed me to also become quite philophical about punctures where others may be a bit more paranoid.
Being relatively new to the world of tubs I'm very interested to hear others veiws on various tyres as there does seem to be massive and genuine difference in performance between them. I have a good track record with conti's in general but the general consensus seems to be that conti's lack in performance relative to others. Would that be a fair assessment?Cannondale caad7 ultegra
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Brother Swift0 -
That's not been my experience, but IIRC you run quite low pressures, don't you? I'm 80kg and run Paves at 120psi rear and 115psi front (130 F&R for Schwalbe Ones). And none of this makes the rims weigh any more - my Enve 45s are about 1100g the set, as opposed to about 1450g for the clincher version.
Planet-X remains the go-to site for cheap tubs, though, if you're not too fussed about nominal size or this year's model. Often have deals on Paves.
Yet Pave' tubulars are very slow tyres... I have managed to achieve the same times lapping Richmond Park with chunky 32-37 mm touring clinchers... defies the point of running tubulars
Oh, and Ambrosio Nemesis weigh a ton, especially when built 32 3x on Record, but you have to admit they look the dog's, with the brass counterweight and gumwall Challenge Stradas...0 -
That's not been my experience, but IIRC you run quite low pressures, don't you? I'm 80kg and run Paves at 120psi rear and 115psi front (130 F&R for Schwalbe Ones). And none of this makes the rims weigh any more - my Enve 45s are about 1100g the set, as opposed to about 1450g for the clincher version.
Planet-X remains the go-to site for cheap tubs, though, if you're not too fussed about nominal size or this year's model. Often have deals on Paves.
Yet Pave' tubulars are very slow tyres... I have managed to achieve the same times lapping Richmond Park with chunky 32-37 mm touring clinchers... defies the point of running tubulars
Oh, and Ambrosio Nemesis weigh a ton, especially when built 32 3x on Record, but you have to admit they look the dog's, with the brass counterweight and gumwall Challenge Stradas...
I ran the pressure PROs run when they use the Pave' in the spring classics... around 80-85 PSI. Bear in mind the bigger tyres that performed the same were ran at 50-60 PSI.
Corsa CX 23 (100 PSI) on the same rims were significantly faster... as an average about 20 sec quicker over 7 milesleft the forum March 20230 -
I ran the pressure PROs run when they use the Pave' in the spring classics... around 80-85 PSI. Bear in mind the bigger tyres that performed the same were ran at 50-60 PSI.
Corsa CX 23 (100 PSI) on the same rims were significantly faster... as an average about 20 sec quicker over 7 miles[/quote]
Sure, but a) the pros (why caps?) are mostly lighter than me, and b) I'm not riding the Paves on pave. Of course the Corsas were faster, but then they puncture more easily and grip less well in the wet, in my experience. Horses for courses.0 -
Sure, but a) the pros (why caps?) are mostly lighter than me, and b) I'm not riding the Paves on pave. Of course the Corsas were faster, but then they puncture more easily and grip less well in the wet, in my experience. Horses for courses.
They are out of fashion, but Lampre used Pave' (Ballan) and a few other teams did too in the recent past. I just never found they are anything special, anything better than a 20 quid clincher, like a Rubino pro with a latex inner, for exampleleft the forum March 20230
