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The Immigration Thread

morstarmorstar Posts: 4,663
edited September 2015 in The cake stop
Is it worth having one central thread for ALL immigration discussion (legal, illegal, refugee)? It seems to be at the centre of everything currently.

Nurse shortages: On the news this morning, can't get overseas nurses as immigration policy is blocking them.

If you take the increasingly widespread anti-immigration view, what is the solution? If these foreigners are nicking our jobs, why aren't there queues British of people wanting to become nurses. They're not zero hour contracts and you can find jobs anywhere in the UK.

Posts

  • We need to train more nurses
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 24,665 Lives Here
    There's a Polish girl that works here that is a qualified nurse in Poland, but she can't work as a nurse here as her qualification doesn't count.
    Before we can train more nurses we need more people to want to be nurses. Then once they have been trained we need to pay them enough that they want to stay as nurses in the NHS.
  • We need to train more nurses
    With regard nurses and doctors etc, the analogy I draw is one of the manager of a football team in the relegation zone. It's no good pointing out to the chairman you have several really good lads in the youth team available in four years time. He has to go and sign the finished product from wherever. Same with said medical staff, training takes time and the investment has not been there.
    Tail end Charlie

    The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.
  • There's a Polish girl that works here that is a qualified nurse in Poland, but she can't work as a nurse here as her qualification doesn't count.
    Before we can train more nurses we need more people to want to be nurses. Then once they have been trained we need to pay them enough that they want to stay as nurses in the NHS.


    Nurse training courses are massively oversubscribed so that part of the jigsaw is solved.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 24,665 Lives Here
    Nurse training courses are massively oversubscribed so that part of the jigsaw is solved.
    In which case we need to pay them enough to stay in the NHS.
  • chris_basschris_bass Posts: 4,913
    Nurse training courses are massively oversubscribed so that part of the jigsaw is solved.
    In which case we need to pay them enough to stay in the NHS.

    and put more courses on by the sounds of it
    www.conjunctivitis.com - a site for sore eyes
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    in an effort to save money, 4 years ago, nursing places were cut by the Tories/Libs, the view was less nurses would be needed in the future, this isnt the case and now there is a shortage, agencies can pay far more and nhs cant or wont offer flexible hours that agency nursing offers nurses with children, many nurses needed are specialist ones trauma, peads etc and they dont come straight out of college.

    Forget nursing, i dont think anyone objects to skilled migration for temporay skills shortages but with 2m plus unemployed and low skilled people on the dole, why do we need agricultral workers from E. Europe?
  • in an effort to save money, 4 years ago, nursing places were cut by the Tories/Libs, the view was less nurses would be needed in the future, this isnt the case and now there is a shortage, agencies can pay far more and nhs cant or wont offer flexible hours that agency nursing offers nurses with children, many nurses needed are specialist ones trauma, peads etc and they dont come straight out of college.

    Forget nursing, i dont think anyone objects to skilled migration for temporay skills shortages but with 2m plus unemployed and low skilled people on the dole, why do we need agricultral workers from E. Europe?
    I refer you to my earlier post fella
    With regard nurses and doctors etc, the analogy I draw is one of the manager of a football team in the relegation zone. It's no good pointing out to the chairman you have several really good lads in the youth team available in four years time. He has to go and sign the finished product from wherever. Same with said medical staff, training takes time and the investment has not been there
    Tail end Charlie

    The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 15,628
    in an effort to save money, 4 years ago, nursing places were cut by the Tories/Libs, the view was less nurses would be needed in the future, this isnt the case and now there is a shortage, agencies can pay far more and nhs cant or wont offer flexible hours that agency nursing offers nurses with children, many nurses needed are specialist ones trauma, peads etc and they dont come straight out of college.

    Forget nursing, i dont think anyone objects to skilled migration for temporay skills shortages but with 2m plus unemployed and low skilled people on the dole, why do we need agricultral workers from E. Europe?


    We should be able to cherry pick. Other nations do it.
    As regards the people on the dole, are you trying to suggest that a life on benefits appears more attractive to them?
  • finchyfinchy Posts: 6,686
    Forget nursing, i dont think anyone objects to skilled migration for temporay skills shortages but with 2m plus unemployed and low skilled people on the dole, why do we need agricultral workers from E. Europe?

    A few summers back I tried to get myself some work in an orchard, but the farmer told me that he
    (and many of the neighbouring farms) only uses agencies now which means immigrant workers. The problem was, he said, that the countryside is now so lacking in the type of people - i.e. young people who wanted to earn some money in the holidays - who used to do that type of work, and there are some many better options for them, that it's just far more convenient to ship in a load of immigrants.

    Also, with the vast majority of unemployed people being on the dole for short periods of time only, if someone says in April that they'll start picking fruit in July, they might go and get a permanent job in the meantime, leaving the farmer in the lurch. Recruitment for jobs like this can't be done at the last minute, especially at harvest, so getting agency-supplied immigrant workers is the easiest way to do it. And they're cheap. :wink:
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 16,792
    Nurse training courses are massively oversubscribed so that part of the jigsaw is solved.
    In which case we need to pay them enough to stay in the NHS.
    This.
    But also we need to stop adding to their responsibilities at the same time as freezing wages (1% is an effective drop with inflation). Nurses at your local practice are now doing 50%* of the work that a doctor used to.
    The trained nurses that we have are haemorrhaging.

    *Random figure. There will be studies no doubt, but ask a nurse.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    in an effort to save money, 4 years ago, nursing places were cut by the Tories/Libs, the view was less nurses would be needed in the future, this isnt the case and now there is a shortage, agencies can pay far more and nhs cant or wont offer flexible hours that agency nursing offers nurses with children, many nurses needed are specialist ones trauma, peads etc and they dont come straight out of college.

    Forget nursing, i dont think anyone objects to skilled migration for temporay skills shortages but with 2m plus unemployed and low skilled people on the dole, why do we need agricultral workers from E. Europe?


    We should be able to cherry pick. Other nations do it.
    As regards the people on the dole, are you trying to suggest that a life on benefits appears more attractive to them?

    No, i m not saying that, but i do think that many many people in this country are basically unemployable and no employer would ever give them a job, where we probably differ, is the solution, taking away their benefits leads to more homelessness, begging etc, maybe intensive training, re schooling and subsidised employment is a better option? isnt that what used to happen? but longer term, we need a better education system and that isnt happening.
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 15,628
    in an effort to save money, 4 years ago, nursing places were cut by the Tories/Libs, the view was less nurses would be needed in the future, this isnt the case and now there is a shortage, agencies can pay far more and nhs cant or wont offer flexible hours that agency nursing offers nurses with children, many nurses needed are specialist ones trauma, peads etc and they dont come straight out of college.

    Forget nursing, i dont think anyone objects to skilled migration for temporay skills shortages but with 2m plus unemployed and low skilled people on the dole, why do we need agricultral workers from E. Europe?


    We should be able to cherry pick. Other nations do it.
    As regards the people on the dole, are you trying to suggest that a life on benefits appears more attractive to them?

    No, i m not saying that, but i do think that many many people in this country are basically unemployable and no employer would ever give them a job, where we probably differ, is the solution, taking away their benefits leads to more homelessness, begging etc, maybe intensive training, re schooling and subsidised employment is a better option? isnt that what used to happen? but longer term, we need a better education system and that isnt happening.

    I agree that we need better education. We could also stop trying to send 50% of kids to university, not everyone is suited to further education. Lets start giving kids the skills that they may actually require.
    But I's sure someone will come along and say that poor kids going to a poor school will be disadvantaged and we would be going back to an era when only posh kids went to university.
    I agree that many people seem to be unemployable but it is not necessarily bad education that is the problem. Not to be disparaging, but what standard of education do you need to pick apples as Finchy tried to do? How well educated are the E Europeans working on our farms?
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 24,665 Lives Here
    As regards the people on the dole, are you trying to suggest that a life on benefits appears more attractive to them?
    Unfortunately there are some that do think like that round here. Often hear the guys in the warehouse debating the benefits of working or living off the state. We've had several people start work only to leave a while later because they couldn't be bothered to work as it's easier to just claim the benefits. When I say they leave, they just stop turning up until they get sacked. One particularly vile specimen did that because he would be better off as it would get the CSA off his back.
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    I agree that we need better education. We could also stop trying to send 50% of kids to university, not everyone is suited to further education. Lets start giving kids the skills that they may actually require.
    But I's sure someone will come along and say that poor kids going to a poor school will be disadvantaged and we would be going back to an era when only posh kids went to university.
    I agree that many people seem to be unemployable but it is not necessarily bad education that is the problem. Not to be disparaging, but what standard of education do you need to pick apples as Finchy tried to do? How well educated are the E Europeans working on our farms?

    Schooling shouldnt only be about exams etc as important as they are, it should also be about responsibilities both to your self and society, values that in many families are sadly lacking.
    stopping a std education at 14yo and allowing children to do vocational training, engineering, nursing etc with real world work exp rather than a week in florists, would be a start, but its not only uni, pretending that a 12month part time course in a college is some sort of apprenticeship is also a complete waste of time too, we see these kids who ve done a ICT course, in some private learning estb, they are useless and even those who ve done well, lack basic oral communication skills, have worked on old kit and dont understand the demands of work.

    and no we dont want to go back to when, mostly, only wealthy kids from a private or grammar school go one to uni, whats good about that? entry to uni should be on merit not if your father is a banker.

    As for the education of an e. european fruit picker? probably higher than you think, many people who travel 1000's of miles for work, tend to be those who can see further than the immediate £5 per hour, are not clinically obese and are ambitious.
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 15,628
    I agree that we need better education. We could also stop trying to send 50% of kids to university, not everyone is suited to further education. Lets start giving kids the skills that they may actually require.
    But I's sure someone will come along and say that poor kids going to a poor school will be disadvantaged and we would be going back to an era when only posh kids went to university.
    I agree that many people seem to be unemployable but it is not necessarily bad education that is the problem. Not to be disparaging, but what standard of education do you need to pick apples as Finchy tried to do? How well educated are the E Europeans working on our farms?

    Schooling shouldnt only be about exams etc as important as they are, it should also be about responsibilities both to your self and society, values that in many families are sadly lacking.
    stopping a std education at 14yo and allowing children to do vocational training, engineering, nursing etc with real world work exp rather than a week in florists, would be a start, but its not only uni, pretending that a 12month part time course in a college is some sort of apprenticeship is also a complete waste of time too, we see these kids who ve done a ICT course, in some private learning estb, they are useless and even those who ve done well, lack basic oral communication skills, have worked on old kit and dont understand the demands of work.

    and no we dont want to go back to when, mostly, only wealthy kids from a private or grammar school go one to uni, whats good about that? entry to uni should be on merit not if your father is a banker.

    As for the education of an e. european fruit picker? probably higher than you think, many people who travel 1000's of miles for work, tend to be those who can see further than the immediate £5 per hour, are not clinically obese and are ambitious.

    That's the biggest problem. The problem arises at home and manifests itself at school and from there into other aspects of life. If your parents have no moral compass, the lack of values is passed onto their offspring.
    Not the schools' prime objective to teach values and responsibility. That is a parent's job.
    Kids that respect others and respect what teachers are trying to do have a greater chance of success.
  • BobbinogsBobbinogs Posts: 4,841
    Yepp, my wife works in a school and has had to spend time teaching the young children how to brush their (now rotten) teeth and introduce them to the concept that coca cola does not make a good breakfast drink. When folks moan about some of the educational standards nowadays, it is because a lot of teaching time is spent teaching children stuff that shouldn't have to be taught at school.
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    That's the biggest problem. The problem arises at home and manifests itself at school and from there into other aspects of life. If your parents have no moral compass, the lack of values is passed onto their offspring.
    Not the schools' prime objective to teach values and responsibility. That is a parent's job.
    Kids that respect others and respect what teachers are trying to do have a greater chance of success.

    i totally agree with you on this but it isnt happening is it?

    Whatever the reasons, many parents dont take their responsibilities seriously at all, infact the exact opposite.
  • GiraffotoGiraffoto Posts: 2,078
    There is apparently only one example of a role where the same number of jobs has been available for many years, but now far less of them go to UK natives because immigrants are coming in and taking those jobs. It's professional footballer.
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