Froome: unlucky or clumsy?
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[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19694501#p19694501]Richmond Racer 2[/url] wrote:Contador crashed in the neutralized section on this year's Tour (stage 7). Gesink went down too - likely bringing down Contador but I don't know for sure.
"If you dropped a club cyclist into a neutral zone of a Tour stage, they would crash," says Cavendish.
But these are not club cyclists. These are the top of the pile.
Arf
I'm here all week
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Made me think of this
It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.0 -
I don't really think that he crashes any more than average. It's just he's an A-lister so you'll be guaranteed to see it when he does.
However, I would suggest that what crashes he does have cause a lot more damage than on average. Maybe he needs some falling lessons.
Might be something in that. Till Harrogate last year, Cav tended to emerge relatively unscathed from crashes - he learned some nifty protective fall techniques as a young 'un0 -
Made me think of this
Nice to see this photo again. One for the greatest photo thread.Contador is the Greatest0 -
I don't really think that he crashes any more than average. It's just he's an A-lister so you'll be guaranteed to see it when he does.
However, I would suggest that what crashes he does have cause a lot more damage than on average. Maybe he needs some falling lessons.
As you know in the past cyclists were taught how to fall off their bike. Not anymore.
Having almost zero upper body muscle and bodyfat is also a recipe for hurt when you hit the macadam.Contador is the Greatest0 -
I think what FF is referring to is cases like the Dauphine 2014 - Froome crashed and then his legs seemingly fell off the next two days as his body tried to recover.
Whereas your sprinters and classics men tend to be a little more hard wearing. Stuyven for example0 -
Sprinters tend to crash at faster speeds and slide across the black stuff often escaping more serious injury.
It tends to be the slower falls that do the damage, or hitting some road furniture on your way down.
And i don't think Froome has poor handling skills relative to his peers.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19694479#p19694479]Richmond Racer 2[/url] wrote:Crashing in the neutral zone on stage 1 of the 2013 Tour...now THAT took some doing...
Merckx crashed in the neutralised zone and broke his jaw. Being Merckx he still carried on and even won another later stage, but I hardly think his bike handling can be brought into question.
On Froome. The reports seem to indicate he was on his own when he crashed so all his fault. Same if you slide off on a fast decent, on your own, its your fault for misjudging the corner.0 -
Random thought - I bet track guys have far fewer broken collar bones than the roadies - simply because they often have an upper body worth mentioning.I don't really think that he crashes any more than average. It's just he's an A-lister so you'll be guaranteed to see it when he does.
However, I would suggest that what crashes he does have cause a lot more damage than on average. Maybe he needs some falling lessons.
As you know in the past cyclists were taught how to fall off their bike. Not anymore.
Having almost zero upper body muscle and bodyfat is also a recipe for hurt when you hit the macadam.
No stats to back that up - just a gut feeling.You only need two tools: WD40 and Duck Tape.
If it doesn't move and should, use the WD40.
If it shouldn't move and does, use the tape.0 -
Wiggins did his collarbone in 2011, although I suppose he wasn't a "proper" trackie at that point.
You rarely have chance to put your hands down on the track as well which is often how collarbones get popped0 -
Video of just after the crash as hasn't been posted:
https://youtu.be/4OJHDxVz-2QContador is the Greatest0 -
true. but the picture i wanted to paint is he is distinctly error prone. might have helped if i actually said that....
If always staying upright is the complete skillset, nobody has it.
Dan Martin is another rider that often fails to stay upright. good Pro, but again not the complete skillset.Good opportunity to give this one a bump:
http://chrisfroomelookingatstems.tumblr.com/
He can handle himself just fine but as mentioned, looking so often not where you are going and what's going on around you is clearly a silly way to ride and endangers himself and others. There are more crashes in general due to a variety of factors, not least the younger kids ego.
@DanMartin86 Aug 30
Why so many crashes this year? My opinion: guys showing less professional respect/caution, fighting for every position, take more risks
@DanMartin86 Aug 30
To be more clear, I'm not saying we should ride round in procession. But there's certain etiquette that should be followed
Peloton has diversified massively in recent years so like London, things are going to break as a result.0 -
I'd tend to agree with that description - his palmares would be much better if he didn't make fairly amateurish mistakes like timing your sprint wrong, positioning and also trying to pedal when you are in the last corner of a monument0
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Video of just after the crash as hasn't been posted:
https://youtu.be/4OJHDxVz-2Q
Hard to say without seeing it all unfold but if there were riders in front who took the corner a bit wide then saw the barrier they might have avoided it squeezing in at the last moment, congesting the group, Froome maybe got squeezed out or just had nowhere to go.
Not sure if a marshall is needed for an uphill bit but unless you know the road then the barrier coming up from the ground the way it does is a bit risky if in a big group of cyclists spready across the road - staring at the stem or looking ahead you're not going to see it in the middle of a bunch.0 -
He seemed to get around this year's Tour fairly well when many other riders were crashing out. From memory noted descending genius Nibali had an off going downhill and not for the first time this season (my memory is poor so I could be wrong). It's strange how easily reputations are made and then become self-fulfilling.0
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Riders crash when the pressure's on: and the riders with the most pressure usually have the eyes of the media on them.
Bertie, the otherwise undoubted descender, crashed whilst trying to follow that naughty Valverde and Nibali who thought they could distance Froome whilst descending Allos at the Tour (they couldn't do it on the climbs)... Froome stuck to them like a blanket to some sh!ts.
As Christian Vande Velde points out in this month's Procycling mag: Froome is a "brilliant descender and that he would destroy pretty much everyone who is sat at home watching the race on their TV"...
Although - on the other hand, wasn't CVV also a bit sh!t?0 -
It's strange how easily reputations are made and then become self-fulfilling.
This is it. Someone somewhere was struggling to find a weakness and lo, hit upon weakness in descending and now this is a fact, apparently. I've never really watched Nibali, but he's had a few spectacular offs descending (at the Giro in 2013?) but he does seem to carry the moniker "renowned descender". He certainly doesn't seem to come near Cancellara or Sagan, to name two, though I'm sure there are better, but less well known names.0 -
Contador has actually crashed on descents in the Tour for 3 years running now: 2013 on the Col de Manse when he almost took Froome with him, 2014 when he had his big crash and abandoned, and then as you say on the Col d'Allos descent this year.Bertie, the otherwise undoubted descender, crashed whilst trying to follow that naughty Valverde and Nibali who thought they could distance Froome whilst descending Allos at the Tour (they couldn't do it on the climbs)... Froome stuck to them like a blanket to some sh!ts.0 -
Contador has actually crashed on descents in the Tour for 3 years running now: 2013 on the Col de Manse when he almost took Froome with him, 2014 when he had his big crash and abandoned, and then as you say on the Col d'Allos descent this year.Bertie, the otherwise undoubted descender, crashed whilst trying to follow that naughty Valverde and Nibali who thought they could distance Froome whilst descending Allos at the Tour (they couldn't do it on the climbs)... Froome stuck to them like a blanket to some sh!ts.
I was trying to give the guy some props!
Which is what he needs - along with some crutches and stabilisers...0 -
Contador has actually crashed on descents in the Tour for 3 years running now: 2013 on the Col de Manse when he almost took Froome with him, 2014 when he had his big crash and abandoned, and then as you say on the Col d'Allos descent this year.Bertie, the otherwise undoubted descender, crashed whilst trying to follow that naughty Valverde and Nibali who thought they could distance Froome whilst descending Allos at the Tour (they couldn't do it on the climbs)... Froome stuck to them like a blanket to some sh!ts.
I was trying to give the guy some props!
Which is what he needs - along with some crutches and stabilisers...
Ba-doom tishIt's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.0 -
Video of just after the crash as hasn't been posted:
https://youtu.be/4OJHDxVz-2Q
I was rewatching this on irumble.com/vuelta this morning and they had footage of this from the air. They cut just before Froome crashes. You can see a lot of the riders mid-peloton on that corner going very wide and a lot of riders on the outside being pushed out and narrowly missing the wooden barrier. One even goes down the other side of it. (much earlier in the start of the race there are a number going down the pavements!) You can't quite make out in the video where Froome is but I guess middle-ish and if he was on the outside he'd have no where to go. Just unlucky I think and wasn't expecting that barrier to be there. Feel gutted for him. I'm amazed at how he and many others carry on which really nasty injuries including his broken foot whereas footballers fall over at the merest hint of a nudge and cry foul.Sometimes. Maybe. Possibly.
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Sagan has the reputation, but is a poor descender in my opinion. He's brave, but typically very reckless carrying too much speed into the bends and constantly is adjusting for overcooking the corners, the typical Sagan descent involves a lot of rear wheel movement and misjudgement, followed by crazy accelaration to bring it back. I suppose he must be a good rider to adjust to that and keep getting away with it, but he always seems a huge pile up waiting to happen. Cancellara is the complete opposite, like Valverde smooth and taking a very good line.
This is it. Someone somewhere was struggling to find a weakness and lo, hit upon weakness in descending and now this is a fact, apparently. I've never really watched Nibali, but he's had a few spectacular offs descending (at the Giro in 2013?) but he does seem to carry the moniker "renowned descender". He certainly doesn't seem to come near Cancellara or Sagan, to name two, though I'm sure there are better, but less well known names.It's strange how easily reputations are made and then become self-fulfilling.0 -
Another tedious comparison to footballers. You understand footballers do this because it brings reward, they're conditioned to it. If a rider forced into a barrier could get another teams riders to lose time or be chucked off the race for causing it, they'd start taking liberties in just the same way.
I was rewatching this on irumble.com/vuelta this morning and they had footage of this from the air. They cut just before Froome crashes. You can see a lot of the riders mid-peloton on that corner going very wide and a lot of riders on the outside being pushed out and narrowly missing the wooden barrier. One even goes down the other side of it. (much earlier in the start of the race there are a number going down the pavements!) You can't quite make out in the video where Froome is but I guess middle-ish and if he was on the outside he'd have no where to go. Just unlucky I think and wasn't expecting that barrier to be there. Feel gutted for him. I'm amazed at how he and many others carry on which really nasty injuries including his broken foot whereas footballers fall over at the merest hint of a nudge and cry foul.Video of just after the crash as hasn't been posted:
https://youtu.be/4OJHDxVz-2Q0 -
I think it's a bit of both but he is a clumsy git on a bike
In a strange way though, it's why I like him. You can virtually still see the young kid in him, arms out, legs going like the clappers, not looking where he's going, mum shouting at him that his dinners on the table with a playing card and a clothes pegs on the back wheel.
It doesn't look like SKY have told him any different either.0 -
I wonder also if it's partially to do with his mindset at the time. Watching him at this years Tour he was much more aggressive in the pack, I noticed him rubbing shoulders with at least 4 different riders in the first week trying to stay/get to the front, almost like he was consciously trying to avoid events of 2014? He hasn't been that aggressive during the Vuelta so maybe a combo of mindset and positioning?0
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clearly none of you have been over to the other place. He had a bad blood bag on the rest day and so crashed on purpose, as ordered by DB, in collusion with Cookson as we can't have Sky winning all the GTs. Makes perfect logical sense to me 0
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Ok - thanks for comments - wasn't suggesting the Froominator wasn't a class act, but he's had a couple of high profile offs (this Vuelta, the Tour in 2014) where it was only really "him". The staring at the stem thing can't help, but I too would happily take one-tenth of his talent!
The Tour in 2014? The crash that broke his wrist was definitely not his fault.
He might have crashed the next day but that was as a consequence of the injuries he'd sustained the day before.
It never ceases to amaze me that people on internet forums think they can comment on a professional rider's handling skills purely from watching tv images.
In defence, your honour:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl4eCCa1pJQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3OQAX90sFA
https://youtu.be/LQI28OXkjhY?t=16s0 -
Sagan has the reputation, but is a poor descender in my opinion. He's brave, but typically very reckless carrying too much speed into the bends and constantly is adjusting for overcooking the corners, the typical Sagan descent involves a lot of rear wheel movement and misjudgement, followed by crazy acceleration to bring it back. I suppose he must be a good rider to adjust to that and keep getting away with it, but he always seems a huge pile up waiting to happen. Cancellara is the complete opposite, like Valverde smooth and taking a very good line.
This is very interesting. I saw a good point made by David McLean that most pros are good descenders because they are brave. Rain washes that bravery away and you see who is actually technically good at cornering. This struck me as very pertinent even from my limited experience of high level riding.
Sagan seems to be a bit of both; technically very good and very brave, but perhaps his bravery causes him to overstretch his ability, or the ability of his bike to handle what he wants it to do! I've heard (can't remember where) some pros complaining about his recklessness.
Funnily, Cancellara always strikes me as technically good but lacking something else. See his reactions to wet descents and wet cobbles. I lost a lot of respect for him after those stupid 'go-slows' and complaining about that TdF cobble stage.
Froome seems to be technically a good bike handler. He can follow a line down a mountain pretty well and his crashes are usually when going well within himself, he just seems to switch off, I guess. However, I don't rate him so highly for presence in the bunch; he's not got a patch on Stybar shouldering Vanmarcke on the cobbles. Regardless, he doesn't seem to crash much (if at all) more than other GC contenders.I'm on Twitter! Follow @olake92 for updates on my racing, my team's performance and some generic tweets.0
