Dinged frame for the bin?

bproud79

Hello wise people,

Could you advise me... I came off my road bike after hitting a hole on a descent. I lost plenty of skin, smashed my phone, and to add insult to injury my LBS assessed the frame as being unsafe.
Seems unlikely to me, but what do I know... For sure I don't want to end up on the tarmac again any time soon.
It's a Condor Acciaio, EOM16.5 steel tubes, about 8 years old. It's no longer my only bike, but was my first love...
Take a look...top tube seems straight to my eye. I appreciate those are thin tubes, but the dent is on the top so presumably not much force pushes the tup tube down. The little patch of grey paint pre-dates the dent, amateur job, I know.

Thanks!

mikenetic

Picture is a bit small to tell, but that looks like a pretty sharp crease at the base of the dent. There's a chance it could crack over time as the frame flexes under load.

Your LBS are covering themselves, which is understandable. They can't say with certainty what will happen to the frame if you ride it. I've seen people ride worse, that's for sure.

You could get the tube cut out and replaced, but that's not a particularly rational economic choice, the repair and repaint would be costly compared to the value of the frame.

If you use a turbo trainer then you could always set it up as a dedicated frame for that.

stevie63

Why not contact condor directly and see what they say? If it was me I would probably ride it still but use it for commuting duties and such like.

keef66

If it was mine I'd still ride it. The dent's in a place where you can easily keep an eye on it, and it isn't a point of maximum stress anyway. Steel's quite robust really.

I had a very light, rigid steel framed MTB which picked up a fair collection of dents like that in the 10 years before it was stolen. Never really worried me.

bproud79

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I've emailed Condor as well, I don't live in London any more so not so easy to pop in...

fenix

Yeah I'd ride it too.

You have a photo of it so you can compare if it gets worse.

I've had a ding in my alu cross bike for years from the bars hitting it. I've never worried about it. Yours is a bit worse - but still looks rideable.

veronese68

I'd ride it and keep an eye as other have said.

bproud79

Thanks again, very re-assuring.
I actually only took it into the LBS as I wanted them to look at the forks, I was more worried about them (being carbon) and the headset seemed loose after the impact. But the shop refused to look at them after seeing the dent and still charged me for a 'crash assessment'. Customer lost I guess.
Would you trust carbon forks after a crash or immediately replace? I'm after real world advice for people without unlimited budgets here...

veronese68

Drop them out and have avery close look. Check that where the steerer tube meets the fork crown isn't damaged or pulling apart. Might be an idea to take the bearing race off the crown to check under it. Just look carefully and be sensible, any sign of damage and I would ditch the forks. Unlike the top tube they are under a lot of stress and failure could hurt, a lot. Hope it's ok.

Clearly any advice given on here is worth what you paid for it.

bproud79

Hah, yeah of course, but thanks regardless.

Monty Dog

It's steel which is far more resilient than aluminium alloy - it'll crack before it will fail. You could talk to a frame builder about repair options e.g. drill tiny hole at each end of crease, fill with braze and polish smooth which was quite common with older steel frames.

gozzy

[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19693783#p19693783]bproud79[/url] wrote:

Thanks again, very re-assuring.
I actually only took it into the LBS as I wanted them to look at the forks, I was more worried about them (being carbon) and the headset seemed loose after the impact. But the shop refused to look at them after seeing the dent and still charged me for a 'crash assessment'. Customer lost I guess.
Would you trust carbon forks after a crash or immediately replace? I'm after real world advice for people without unlimited budgets here...

If I'd paid for a crash assessment I'd want them to complete it, not just spot a dent and give up. Forks and frame are different components and need assessing separately. That's really poor service.

bproud79

Yeah, so the shop's point was that without an X-ray you can't really be sure if the carbon is intact anyway, so if it took an impact hard enough to loosen the headset, then it's for the bin.
I still thought it was pretty lame service though. Shame since I bought my full carbon road bike from them and got excellent service, so I guess I feel neutral about them overall now.
For your interest Condor got back to me, and were ever helpful. They offered me 25% off a new frame, but suggested that it wouldn't fail immediately and wouldn't be dramatic when/if it did. They didn't think a frame repair would be cost-effective (perhaps not in their hands anyway!). If I still lived in London I wouldn't go to any other LBS...

Thanks all for your helpful comments, happy riding.

mm1

I managed to dent the seat tube of my steel TT bike and the frame builder said it would be fine to either tap the dent out or fill it the next time I get the frame resprayed, haven't got round to it yet and still riding the bike 7 years later without any problems. If the frame is braized, it should be possible to replace the tube, sadly not if it is tigged.

IanRCarter

[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19701411#p19701411]bproud79[/url] wrote:

Yeah, so the shop's point was that without an X-ray you can't really be sure if the carbon is intact anyway, so if it took an impact hard enough to loosen the headset, then it's for the bin.
I still thought it was pretty lame service though. Shame since I bought my full carbon road bike from them and got excellent service, so I guess I feel neutral about them overall now.
For your interest Condor got back to me, and were ever helpful. They offered me 25% off a new frame, but suggested that it wouldn't fail immediately and wouldn't be dramatic when/if it did. They didn't think a frame repair would be cost-effective (perhaps not in their hands anyway!). If I still lived in London I wouldn't go to any other LBS...

Thanks all for your helpful comments, happy riding.

Funny how they provide excellent service when you're buying a bike off them. Can't believe they charged you when all they did was look at a dent and say the frames a write-off! Sounds like there are some good people at Condor though, they didn't have to offer you 25% off and they're not making the most of the opportunity by telling you that it does need replacing when it doesn't.

menthel

condor usually come up trumps, top quality people who are always helpful and won't try to sell you something that won't be right for you. Its a pain in the bum for me to get to but if I really need something sorting out I will get myself to them every single time.

navrig2

I'd continue to ride it but it is interesting to see the different perceptions on how bike frames work structurally.

The triangular shapes of the frame are designed to stiffen the frame and to avoid bending stresses on the tubes by distributing the load of the rider and any feedback from the road surface as axial loads (that is compression or tension forces). Tubes are ideal for this and with modern analysis tube wall thickness has been thinned and thinned to the point where it is very thin and most people would be surprised if they saw a x-section of a top tube.

I remember a little party trick which could be done with aluminium drinks cans before they became as thin as they are now.

Take an empty can which is still perfectly round.
Get a full grown adult to gently stand on top of the can such that their weight is evenly applied all round the can.
The can would hold them.
Whilst they are still on the can someone else bends down and flicks the side of the can with their finger,
The can will collapse.

This shows how dependent the strength of the tube is on its oval/circular shape.

It can be done with modern cans but you need to be very careful when standing on the can as any asymmetrical loading will cause collapse.

solosuperia

Many years ago I damaged my top tube in much the same way. It was that long ago that Youngs in the Lee High Rd. took the damaged tube out, replaced it But didn't have time to paint it, middle of season. Finished the season on a bare metal top tube and areas where heat had been applied.
Basically what I'm trying to say is any frame builder will be able to replace the tube, and as some other contributor said "Send it back to Condor to sort it out".

Monty Dog

Frame looks like it's TIG-welded so tube replacement near impossible.

keezx

About 35 years ago I had a frame (Reynolds 531 butted) with a similar dent in the top tube.
Used is for occasional cyclecrosses without any problems in about 4 or 5 winters befor it was ruined on a spring training (car ran over it)

bproud79

Yeah I'm pretty sure it is TIG welded, although it's really smooth at the joins.
Interesting comments about the axial loading, I'll be sure not to sit on the top tube any more at traffic lights.
I guess having a sizeable dent is like someone pushing on the side of that coke can, hopefully less dramatic - I'm not paranoid about these things, but I ride a lot, I've come off properly twice in ten years (collarbone the first time) and it's something I'd rather avoid.

Just shows how much strain there must be where the tubes are joined I guess. I wouldn't trust a cracked carbon/alu join.

I'd love to watch a good frame builder swop the tube, but I don't think it's 'economically justifiable'.

Cheers.

navrig2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EtEaVRH2hQ

svetty

There is a difference between a dent and a crease - where the tube has been subject to a load that has caused it to 'fold'. These are much more prone to subsequent cracking - possibly when you hit a pot-hole at high speed - with potentially 'interesting' results. Dents - fine, ride it. Creases - hmmm.......

priory

the first good quality frame I bought was a raleigh elix I bought at about 1/3 price with a very similar dent on the side of the down tube. I was well into a second wheelset by the time it failed , which it did by forming a spiral crack starting at the dent. It took me weeks of wondering why the bike felt a bit weird on bends to spot it , but I'm not the fussiest rider. I too would ride it and just be aware of the possibilty it might crack.