Endurance bike geometry and runty legs.
Kloudy
Posts: 10
Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere but, if it has, I couldn't find it.
My question for you knowledgable people is this:
Endurance/sportive/distance bikes all seem to share the objective of making long days in the saddle more comfortable whilst not compromising on the efficiency too much.
They achieve this by softening the rear end a bit by various methods and raising the head tube up a few millimetres. All ok so far.
My issue is this - if, like me, you have fairly short legs compared to your torso (5'8" tall 31" leg) this surely means you end up with a saddle height that is far to close to level with your bars doesn't it?
I accept you could address this to some extent by using a shorter crank length but a) that's more cost and b) is it even the right solution?
I've been thinking about a new bike for 2016 so looking at the usual suspects - Trek Domane, Bianchi Infinito, Cannondale Synapse, Canyon Endurace and (my favourite at the moment) the Rose Xeon Di2 but I really don't want to end up feeling like I'm riding a flat bar commuter bike!
Thoughts and advice gratefully received please.
Happy to hear your thoughts on my short list too although I do know this has been covered elsewhere and very usefully too thanks.
My question for you knowledgable people is this:
Endurance/sportive/distance bikes all seem to share the objective of making long days in the saddle more comfortable whilst not compromising on the efficiency too much.
They achieve this by softening the rear end a bit by various methods and raising the head tube up a few millimetres. All ok so far.
My issue is this - if, like me, you have fairly short legs compared to your torso (5'8" tall 31" leg) this surely means you end up with a saddle height that is far to close to level with your bars doesn't it?
I accept you could address this to some extent by using a shorter crank length but a) that's more cost and b) is it even the right solution?
I've been thinking about a new bike for 2016 so looking at the usual suspects - Trek Domane, Bianchi Infinito, Cannondale Synapse, Canyon Endurace and (my favourite at the moment) the Rose Xeon Di2 but I really don't want to end up feeling like I'm riding a flat bar commuter bike!
Thoughts and advice gratefully received please.
Happy to hear your thoughts on my short list too although I do know this has been covered elsewhere and very usefully too thanks.
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Comments
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Firstly your legs aren't that runty, I'm 5'11" with 32" IL and consider myself fairly normal (within limits
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Secondly "endurance geometry on most brands isn't a massive difference from "race". Just a slightly higher front end and slightly longer chain stays.
I have Bianchi Infinito CV and still have a reasonable saddle to bar drop, it doesn't have an overly tall head tube, plus you can, as I've done, take all spacers out to keep bar height sensible.
I have ridden a Domane on hire which was very smooth although slightly dull styling wise, the Infinito is also very smooth but still an involving ride, and handles really well, I'm really happy with it. To be honest you aren't going to be disappointed with anything on your list, its mainly about the one that makes your feel good when you look at it / ride it.Bianchi Infinito CV
Bianchi Via Nirone 7 Ultegra
Brompton S Type
Carrera Vengeance Ultimate Ltd
Gary Fisher Aquila '98
Front half of a Viking Saratoga Tandem0 -
I do not fully agree with the concept of a bike with a relaxed geometry being a more "comfortable" fit. Bike fit is far more important for comfort. If you have a longer reach in comparison to stack, then a more "aggressive" geometry may produce a better fit and could be more comfortable. If you genuinely have short legs - long reach then you shouldn't rule out the more aggressive fit options from Canyon, Cannondale etc.0
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I think the "Endurance" bike is built with more compliance into the frame, also clearances are usually slightly bigger to allow for wider/bigger tyres, but yes the chainstays are usually a bit longer and the headtube is usually longer to allow for a higher front end (along with a shorter toptube than comparable "race" bike sizes).
Personally I am complete agreement with letap73, get a bike that fits you and not one that is marketed/designed for endurance, unless you are riding cobbles every weekend where the extra compliance will come in handy.
Bikefit is the most important factor when buying a bike and buying a “race” bike which fits you properly will be miles better than buying an “endurance” bike that may not have the right geometry.
Personally I would have a bikefit before pulling the trigger on anything, that should tell you what geometries will suit you and you can shortlist bikes from there.
sizes)Obsessed is a word used by the lazy to describe the dedicated!0 -
Sound like your leg length is pretty normal, I'm 5' 10" and have a 31" inside leg and agree with the above. I need a long and low position. Having said that I've still got 10mm of spacers under the stem on my Focus Izalco. My previous frameset had sportive geometry and I had to run a -17 degree stem and struggled to get the seat far enough forward even with an inline post, it basically just didn't fit.0
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5' 8" and a 30 inside leg. You legs are loooong!
Giant Defy fits me perfectly in a small - tried the medium but felt a bit stretched. No need for spacers or a change in the stem/cranks
So with your longer legs and shorter torso. The small would be a good fit and your saddle would be set another inch above mine which sits at around 3-4 inches above the top of the bars0 -
Thanks everyone, some really good food for thought although I'm a bit concerned that my legs aren't that abnormal, now I need a new excuse for my cycling!
t4tomo, the Bianchi would be my first choice in a heartbeat but might be a bit pricey for me I think. Also agree about Trek. Dull styling and even duller paintjobs.
Letap73 & JesseD, I take your point and will widen my search a bit I think. The Canyon SLX's have a rep for being reasonably comfortable and the 2016 model looks very interesting. I wish they'd allow you to spec 50/34 though.
JesseD your point about wider tires gas me thinking too. I am never going to use bigger that 25mm so do I want a bike with large gaps around the stays/forks? Aesthetics only I know but even so, it has to look good right?
GrenW, good call on the Defy though I'm pretty set on Ultegra Di2 for this bike which, I think, gets pretty pricey with the Defy and also means disc brakes only doesn't it? Likewise the BMC GF01 too I think?
I'm going to go to the Bike Show at the NEC next month and both Canyon and Rose are there so should be a chance for a closer look.
Thanks again everyone. Useful reading as always. 8)0 -
GrenW, good call on the Defy though I'm pretty set on Ultegra Di2 for this bike which, I think, gets pretty pricey with the Defy and also means disc brakes only doesn't it? Likewise the BMC GF01 too I think?
All of the carbon Defys have discs and it'll be just over £3k if you want Ultegra Di2.
My wife loves her Canyon Endurace by the way. Bottom of the range but still lightweight and bargain kit - full carbon fork, Mavic wheels and full 105 for under £9000 -
GrenW, good call on the Defy though I'm pretty set on Ultegra Di2 for this bike which, I think, gets pretty pricey with the Defy and also means disc brakes only doesn't it? Likewise the BMC GF01 too I think?
All of the carbon Defys have discs and it'll be just over £3k if you want Ultegra Di2.
My wife loves her Canyon Endurace by the way. Bottom of the range but still lightweight and bargain kit - full carbon fork, Mavic wheels and full 105 for under £900
That is good value from Canyon. So far no Di2 option on the Endurace though but maybe that will change for 2016? I could build from a framset I suppose but I've set myself a limit of around £3k max which would be tight.
Let's have a chat about disc brakes! :P
Only kidding, each to their own but this bike will be in the shed over winter and I'm happy enough with rim brakes when it's dry especially Rose's direct mount below the bottom bracket which looks tidy and should offer good stopping power hopefully.0 -
Just another thought about Canyon's, Google their customer service, apparently its shocking and you can wait months for delivery.
there is a thread on here somewhere which details this, and this is echoed by my club mates. One ordered a bike from them and it was delivered damaged (he had waited a couple of months for it), he contacted them and they didn't have any more in stock, he is now trying to get them to build up the bike to the spec he ordered using another frame from a bike with a lesser build that they do have in stock but has been met with a lot of resistance so far, we were talking about it after the racing last night and he is getting mighty frustrated with it all (bike was circa £4k I believe).Obsessed is a word used by the lazy to describe the dedicated!0 -
Yeah, I've heard this a lot and it really puts me off.
By contrast I bumped into a guy on Saturday having a cafe stop in Brampton, Cumbria and asked him about the Rose Xeon he had with him. He told me he really loved the bike but loved Rose's customer service even more.
Apparently the first one they delivered he crashed inside the first month. He phoned Rose who arranged a carrier to pick it up from his house, rebuilt the bike on a new frame (paid for obv.) and had it back to him inside ten days. Not bad that is it?0 -
I bought Canyon Endurace CF 7.0. I ordered it in the end of February and received it in the end of April as they planned.
I have had no issue with my bike and the conversation with them via online chat/email was effective, informative and pleasant.
The issue with damaged box/good is with the courier not with Canyon (?)0 -
Thanks everyone, some really good food for thought although I'm a bit concerned that my legs aren't that abnormal, now I need a new excuse for my cycling!
t4tomo, the Bianchi would be my first choice in a heartbeat but might be a bit pricey for me I think. Also agree about Trek. Dull styling and even duller paintjobs.
8)
Yes the Bianchi isn't the cheap option, not much change from £3k for the Ultegra or Athena model thru Epic cycles with fulcrum racing5s, bike fit included. I believe Bianchi pay a reasonable chunk for the counterveil technology that reduces the vibration / road buzz. The Intenso is carbon framed without the CV technology and a more reasonably priced around the £2k mark depending on spec and still a lovely looking bike with similar geometry, so worth considering .
Rose and Canyon will almost certainly give you most spec for your bucks as you are buying direct.Bianchi Infinito CV
Bianchi Via Nirone 7 Ultegra
Brompton S Type
Carrera Vengeance Ultimate Ltd
Gary Fisher Aquila '98
Front half of a Viking Saratoga Tandem0 -
Ham76 - good to hear positive reports on Canyon and I'm sure the vast majority of their customers must be happy or they'd be in trouble. There's definitely a significant number of dissatisfied folk out there though and that's a shame because their product is mostly great and amazing value.
t4tomo - I got my current C2C 928 Bianchi from Epic about seven years back. Still looks fantastic all these years and thousands of miles later. You may pay a bit for the badge but you also get superb paint quality from Bianchi. Mine has hardly a blemish.
If money were no object it would be the Bianchi Infinito with Di2 but at £4,300 compared to a Rose Xeon at less than half that I may have to let the head rule the heart.
I was riding a Sportive in Wales on my current Bianchi a few years back. It was cold, it was raining, I was in Wales.
About 70 miles in I became aware of a Vauxhall Corsa or some such along side me and the passenger window being lowered. Here we go I thought, clocking the four likely lads inside.
"Best looking bike I've seen all day that is mate!" Shouted the lad inside.
"Erm....thanks" I replied. :oops:0 -
I bought Canyon Endurace CF 7.0. I ordered it in the end of February and received it in the end of April as they planned.
I have had no issue with my bike and the conversation with them via online chat/email was effective, informative and pleasant.
The issue with damaged box/good is with the courier not with Canyon (?)
Yes completely agree, if the box was damaged it would be an issue with the courier (for which I assume they have insurance), I am not sure if it was courier damage or the frame was damaged before it left the factory, what I can tell you is that they have accepted liability but have not offered him a satisfactory resolution to the issue for a bike that cost £4k and took months to be delivered.
That said they bikes do look great and I am sure that there are many satisfied customers out there, but a true test of customer service IMO is not when you are buying something, its when they have your money and something goes wrong.Obsessed is a word used by the lazy to describe the dedicated!0 -
Canyon 2016 Endurace now comes withUltegra Di2 and DT Swiss Dicut wheels and all for £2,055.
Decision made I think?0 -
I agree with all the guys here.
Basically just get what feels best for you and that's not to say a racing road bike can't be comfortable. Unless you're on gravel roads or really badly maintained roads, you can easily get very decent comfort with good wheels, 25mm tires, a really good saddle and decent shorts.
Endurance bikes were initially designed for guys who rode the classics and monuments so unless you really need something for cobbles and bad roads, road bikes like the Ultimate, Izalco, Synapse, TCR have all received high marks for comfort and even an aero bike the Giant Propel Advanced Pro 2 has won the best aero bike with great comfort.
Ribble Sportive Racing seems a great value, at around £2000 Dura-Ace, Mavic Ksyrium Elite S wheels and Deda Superleggera bars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZxkSN3mEHk0 -
Canyon 2016 Endurace now comes withUltegra Di2 and DT Swiss Dicut wheels and all for £2,055.
Decision made I think?
My decision was made..I personally thought the Endurace range was perfect for a disc break 'upgrade' and was fully expecting it for 2016..bit disappointed they don't have them and now I'm considering my options again0 -
Canyon 2016 Endurace now comes withUltegra Di2 and DT Swiss Dicut wheels and all for £2,055.
Decision made I think?
My decision was made..I personally thought the Endurace range was perfect for a disc break 'upgrade' and was fully expecting it for 2016..bit disappointed they don't have them and now I'm considering my options again
I'm not. Don't get me wrong, I love disc brakes in the wet but I'd usually use my winter bike which has them if it's raining.
In dry weather I'm not convinced that the extra weight is worth it and I don't like the look of them either.
I predict they will come and go from the Peloton pdq too. A friend who did the Tour de France route ahead of the race with Jeff Thomas this year wobbled off on some rail tracks on a bridge. She landed on another riders front rotor and it sliced straight through her leg. 12 stitches needed so not good when you're only three days in.
When you think how many crashes there are at pro level the teams won't put up with that for long no matter what their bike suppliers demand.
I also am not convinced that featherweight frames are strong enough to cope with the leveraged forces either but time will tell on that one I suppose.0 -
GrenW, good call on the Defy though I'm pretty set on Ultegra Di2 for this bike which, I think, gets pretty pricey with the Defy and also means disc brakes only doesn't it? Likewise the BMC GF01 too I think?
All of the carbon Defys have discs and it'll be just over £3k if you want Ultegra Di2.
My wife loves her Canyon Endurace by the way. Bottom of the range but still lightweight and bargain kit - full carbon fork, Mavic wheels and full 105 for under £900
That is good value from Canyon. So far no Di2 option on the Endurace though but maybe that will change for 2016? I could build from a framset I suppose but I've set myself a limit of around £3k max which would be tight.
Let's have a chat about disc brakes! :P
Only kidding, each to their own but this bike will be in the shed over winter and I'm happy enough with rim brakes when it's dry especially Rose's direct mount below the bottom bracket which looks tidy and should offer good stopping power hopefully.
Be mindful that direct mount brakes under the BB are a pain to work on and defy the Velomati rules of never standing your bike upside down to work on it. It's also harder to hear if the rear brake is suddenly binding slightly. On my Reacto, I struggled for 30 miles during a ride once thinking I was just having a bad day, only to find the rear brake was binding. On my Basso with the brake mounted normally, I can hear if it is binding or something has got trapped between the pad and the wheel rim.
Your original question re bar and seat height differential is easily addressed by going for a smaller frame within your range. If you're between frame size, even slightly, I'd always go for the smaller option unless it meant you couldn't get a bidon to fit on the seat tube and needed to carry 2 of them.I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0 -
Thanks Philthy, I'm pretty sure I'm going for the Canyon Endurace now that it comes with Di2. The small size looks pretty much spot on for me and I like the fact that the stack height isn't too high, in fact only a few mil taller than their Ultimate. Standard rim brakes unlike the Rose's direct mount with which I share your reservations.
The only gearing on offer is compact, which is fine for me, with a rear 11/32!!! I'm all for help up the hills but I wasn't planning a ride up the face of The Shard anytime soon.
I know I could change this but it comes with a long cage mech so I'll live with it.
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