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I'm a union man!

Frank the tankFrank the tank Posts: 6,806
edited August 2015 in The cake stop
As some on here would guess. I believe it is the right of every working person to take industrial action if neccessary, but laws apply in order to do/prevent it.

How come farmers who are in a union and are surely a key industry are able to take industrial action without a ballot of its members let alone have a majority and carry out secondary picketing of supermarkets?

If my union/any other union did this they would be facing punitive action from the government, why not farmers. My MP is a farmer, I wonder how many others are?
Tail end Charlie

The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.
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  • verylonglegsverylonglegs Posts: 3,499
    I can only guess at how the law works but if you strike illegally you are effectively forfeiting your employees rights? So if you worked for someone else then this would be an issue. However if you are a farmer and own everything yourself then what can they take away from you when you protest?
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 14,772
    As our lanky friend says, farmers are in the main self employed and are not taking industrial action as such. They may individually be committing offences when they disrupt businesses, in much the same way as Fathers for Justice.

    Such as

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/33/section/68#commentary-c1980963
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 14,772
    Btw, I see Frank is keen to have the full weight of the law brought to bear on those seen to be taking industrial action.
    Good on yer, Frank. :lol:
  • Sirius631Sirius631 Posts: 1,015
    The Farmers' Union is not a union like the GMB or ASLEF, it's more like the Mothers' Union.
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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 43,972
    As our lanky friend says, farmers are in the main self employed and are not taking industrial action as such. They may individually be committing offences when they disrupt businesses, in much the same way as Fathers for Justice.

    Such as

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/33/section/68#commentary-c1980963
    If there are offences for disrupting businesses, what charges can we bring against the unions responsible for the tube strike, which disrupted an entire city? Just curious of course, I would never meddle in left wing matters myself :wink:
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  • Btw, I see Frank is keen to have the full weight of the law brought to bear on those seen to be taking industrial action.
    Good on yer, Frank. :lol:
    The point is let's see the law applied in a fair and equal manner.

    The railway workers' union will have to jump through hoops to legally take industrial action which they have done. I have a lot of time for farmers and I'm on their side, but demonstrating in/at supermarkets is in effect secondary picketing and illegal.
    Tail end Charlie

    The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 14,158
    When does demonstrating end and picketing begin?
    Serious question as it seems a grey area to me.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
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  • tangled_metaltangled_metal Posts: 4,015
    I heard unions have good financial services. Possibly the best thing about them.

    I always thought of the farmer's union more like the confederation of small businesses or some other trade group.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 52,624 Lives Here
    As our lanky friend says, farmers are in the main self employed and are not taking industrial action as such. They may individually be committing offences when they disrupt businesses, in much the same way as Fathers for Justice.

    Such as

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/33/section/68#commentary-c1980963
    If there are offences for disrupting businesses, what charges can we bring against the unions responsible for the tube strike, which disrupted an entire city? Just curious of course, I would never meddle in left wing matters myself :wink:

    That reminds me.

    I read this and I thought of you.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/08/if-you-think-tube-drivers-are-overpaid-you-dont-understand-how-capitalism-works
  • VTechVTech Posts: 4,736
    Its fair to say that unions on the whole destroyed the UK through the 70's and 80's but in current times I do sympathise with the farmers who are being taken for a ride. I would be happy to pay double for milk, its a bargain even at that rate IMO.
    One thing that hasn't been mentioned much but I did take in this morning was the fact that almost all farmers are subsidised for this type of event so are paid prior to making the milk, I'm not sure how this works as I don't know enough about it but I am personally aware of several farmers who take subsidies and don't farm their land and they do quite well on it.
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  • GiraffotoGiraffoto Posts: 2,078
    Why has no one (NFU would be the obvious choice, by the way) come up with a well-publicised version of Fairtrade for UK farmers? If you're fine with the principle of paying a fair price to farmers in other countries, you should be OK with doing the same for your local farmers.
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  • ddraverddraver Posts: 21,117
    So even the champion left wing poster ignores the serious point of the protest and just whinges that he isnt allowed to play...

    sigh
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • So even the champion left wing poster ignores the serious point of the protest and just whinges that he isnt allowed to play...

    sigh
    For your benefit I'll say again
    The point is let's see the law applied in a fair and equal manner.

    The railway workers' union will have to jump through hoops to legally take industrial action which they have done. I have a lot of time for farmers and I'm on their side, but demonstrating in/at supermarkets is in effect secondary picketing and illegal.

    And I'll say again I'm on the farmers side I happen to think we do actually need a farming industry.

    As for champion left wing poster on here,thanks, but there are others of the left (not many mind) who post/debate far more than I.
    Tail end Charlie

    The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.
  • stu-bimstu-bim Posts: 406
    Why has no one (NFU would be the obvious choice, by the way) come up with a well-publicised version of Fairtrade for UK farmers? If you're fine with the principle of paying a fair price to farmers in other countries, you should be OK with doing the same for your local farmers.

    I think part of the 'Fair Trade' for foreign farmers is because the WTO does not allow certain countries subsidise or even support their farmers in producing certain food types which forces them to produce cash crops preventing food security in said countries and/or levies huge import duties on same food stuffs if imported into US or EU

    Local 'Fair Trade' is local shops and farmers markets
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  • orraloonorraloon Posts: 7,530
    Local 'Fair Trade' is local shops and farmers markets

    You got many Morrisons supermarkets in Barbados then stu-bim? :D
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 14,772
    So even the champion left wing poster ignores the serious point of the protest and just whinges that he isnt allowed to play...

    sigh
    For your benefit I'll say again
    The point is let's see the law applied in a fair and equal manner.

    The railway workers' union will have to jump through hoops to legally take industrial action which they have done. I have a lot of time for farmers and I'm on their side, but demonstrating in/at supermarkets is in effect secondary picketing and illegal.

    And I'll say again I'm on the farmers side I happen to think we do actually need a farming industry.

    As for champion left wing poster on here,thanks, but there are others of the left (not many mind) who post/debate far more than I.

    What the farmers are doing isn't industrial action and is not co-ordinated by a union but these guys.

    http://www.farmersforaction.org/
  • orraloonorraloon Posts: 7,530
    There was a farmer interviewed on local BBC Oxford this morning; got farmers round these pa-arts, doing alright judging by the massive quad track tractor with its triple prairie plough in tow making its way down the A34 this evening. Might have been a contractor of course, but even if means someone is paying him enough to make it worthwhile. Anyway I digress.

    Said interviewed farmer was waxing strong about how supermarkets were responsible for all the ills of the western world, they need to pay the farmer more, blah de blah... Towards the end he was asked where his milk went. Oh that all goes on contract for making butter and cheese. Farmer is part of an industrial process.

    Wait right there. censored interviewer didn't follow up. However, said farmer's case therefore appears to be "I signed a contract that allows price to be deflated in line with world markets, I don't like that so I want supermarket / consumer / taxpayer / Uncle Tom Cobley and all to pay me the difference". Subsidy junkies the lot of them. If you don't like the contract you shouldn't have signed it then.
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    No sympathy for the farmers, whatever the avg farm incomes, they always pay their workers the min wage (after they successfully campaigned to be rid of the agri workers board which used to set a reasonable wage plus training working conditions), the CAP gives them about 60% of total EU spending..... and if things become really tough, they have substantial assents to sell ie property and land.
    As the saying goes "you ll never see a poor farmer"
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 21,117
    So even the champion left wing poster ignores the serious point of the protest and just whinges that he isnt allowed to play...

    sigh
    For your benefit I'll say again
    The point is let's see the law applied in a fair and equal manner.

    The railway workers' union will have to jump through hoops to legally take industrial action which they have done. I have a lot of time for farmers and I'm on their side, but demonstrating in/at supermarkets is in effect secondary picketing and illegal.

    And I'll say again I'm on the farmers side I happen to think we do actually need a farming industry.

    As for champion left wing poster on here,thanks, but there are others of the left (not many mind) who post/debate far more than I.

    Yes, saying the same nonsense again does nt change it from being nonsense though

    You mention the actual issue here as though it is an after thought
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    cant see how you can apply anti strike laws to farmers, they r self employed, who r they withdrawing their labour from?
    picketing? they are not stopping other workers doing their work and in anycase, farming isnt a 40hr week work.
    Cows need milking 2x daily regardless.
    If they are causing criminal damge to a super market, laws exsist to deal with.
  • I thought a good part of the issue here is excess supply, if they produced less the price would rise due to scarcity, I have little sympathy for them complaining that they should be able to produce as much as they can and then get a high price for it all.

    Also, on the RMT how is there not yet a crowd funding campaign for driverless train infrastructure or for all people on a platform to always give the train driver the bird?
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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 43,972
    I thought a good part of the issue here is excess supply, if they produced less the price would rise due to scarcity, I have little sympathy for them complaining that they should be able to produce as much as they can and then get a high price for it all.

    Also, on the RMT how is there not yet a crowd funding campaign for driverless train infrastructure or for all people on a platform to always give the train driver the bird?
    Demand and supply always applies.

    I like the way you are thinking re: the tube unions, I think you would get several million Londoners willing to chip in - especially after the next strikes (two in a week the week after next :roll: ). Also how about let them strike but hold them accountable for any financial losses suffered by businesses or commuters affected by their actions? That might make them think twice before trying to hold a City to ransom and get them to realise that it's not just about them.
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  • stu-bimstu-bim Posts: 406
    Local 'Fair Trade' is local shops and farmers markets

    You got many Morrisons supermarkets in Barbados then stu-bim? :D

    No but plenty of farmers markets and a ridiculous foreign owned chain of supermarkets which carry tesco and waitrose products

    So there certainly is a choice of either
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  • pliptrotpliptrot Posts: 582
    I've always been a leftie but I have to ask; how would the striking drivers feel if they turned up at an A&E department during the hours which they are refusing to work (or at least striking over) and were turned away because said department was closed? The strike is crazy. And it will only hasten the introduction of driverless trains, which are inevitable, if not imminent.
  • ukiboyukiboy Posts: 891
    Bring on driverless trains as per the DLR. 50k a year? 36 hour week? 40 odd days holiday a year? Seriously!?
    London bus drivers have a harder job and they earn less than half of what tube drivers earn.
    London coppers also earn less (in the case of new PC's they earn FAR less) and they have a MUCH harder job to do.
    TFL tube drivers = complete and utter piss takers!
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  • VTechVTech Posts: 4,736
    I grew up in Northfield, just outside Longbridge and my dad worked at Rover. They were always in and out for stupid reasons and if they decided to stay working when told to strike they were treated horrifically and threatened.
    I remember how that situation ended.

    I also remember the coal miners who decided to strike, the gas board plumbed in gas to almost every house in the country and coal was no longer needed, I remember how that turned out as well.

    I often wonder if its "people in power" who really call the shots for these people with the sole aim of destroying the workforce in order to move on or drastically change the way businesses work.
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  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 14,158
    Arthur Scargill.
    Started the strike with a big union and a small house.
    Finished the strike with a small union and a big house.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    I thought a good part of the issue here is excess supply, if they produced less the price would rise due to scarcity, I have little sympathy for them complaining that they should be able to produce as much as they can and then get a high price for it all.

    Also, on the RMT how is there not yet a crowd funding campaign for driverless train infrastructure or for all people on a platform to always give the train driver the bird?
    Demand and supply always applies.

    I like the way you are thinking re: the tube unions, I think you would get several million Londoners willing to chip in - especially after the next strikes (two in a week the week after next :roll: ). Also how about let them strike but hold them accountable for any financial losses suffered by businesses or commuters affected by their actions? That might make them think twice before trying to hold a City to ransom and get them to realise that it's not just about them.

    Well, its a free country and everyone should have the democratic right to withdraw their labour, or do you want a communist system?
    But an interesting point re compensation for lose, would you also like to apply that to the financial sector and the CEO's who walked away multi millonaires following 2008 ?
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 43,972
    I thought a good part of the issue here is excess supply, if they produced less the price would rise due to scarcity, I have little sympathy for them complaining that they should be able to produce as much as they can and then get a high price for it all.

    Also, on the RMT how is there not yet a crowd funding campaign for driverless train infrastructure or for all people on a platform to always give the train driver the bird?
    Demand and supply always applies.

    I like the way you are thinking re: the tube unions, I think you would get several million Londoners willing to chip in - especially after the next strikes (two in a week the week after next :roll: ). Also how about let them strike but hold them accountable for any financial losses suffered by businesses or commuters affected by their actions? That might make them think twice before trying to hold a City to ransom and get them to realise that it's not just about them.

    Well, its a free country and everyone should have the democratic right to withdraw their labour, or do you want a communist system?
    But an interesting point re compensation for lose, would you also like to apply that to the financial sector and the CEO's who walked away multi millonaires following 2008 ?
    Everyone has the right to withdraw labour - it's called resigning. Done it myself on several occasions when I felt that my pay/working conditions were not good enough.

    Not sure why you are singling out chief execs in particular? But if anyone can be show to deliberately have caused damage through their actions then fine. If its incompetence etc then that's a different matter. However what we are talking about with the tube workers is deliberate and premeditated action that they know will cause material financial damage to their employer, and to other businesses and people who have nothing to do with the dispute. That is selfish, it's blackmail and it's wrong. Bring on the machines.

    By all means negotiate with your employer but don't harm others to make your point. And if you really think its that bad then resign and get another job. In the case of tube drivers they should count themselves lucky - do they really think they are going to get a better deal elsewhere for that level of skill? :roll:
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  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 14,158
    When does demonstrating end and picketing begin?
    Serious question as it seems a grey area to me.
    I guess that no one knows the answer then.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
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