Carbon Wheels - Advice
Snowblind
Posts: 75
Hi all,
I started road biking about 9 months ago and absolutely love it. I picked up a Merida Ride Carbon Comp 93 on the cycle-to-work scheme and have covered a lot of distance in it since. On a regular route of mine that I do most nights after work (come light, dark, sun or rain!) I have reduced my average time by 40% since I started and it is really rewarding pushing every time I go out.
That said, I think I am at a stage where I would like to start 'tinkering' with my bike. I have done quite a bit of research and I understand that one of the most effective upgrades you can do is to replace the stock wheelset with some carbon ones. I don't really want to buy a flashy set of wheels because (to be frank) I don't want to spend £2k on some wheels for my bike and, at my amateurish level, I would look rather silly!
Are there any 'budget' wheels out there that anyone can recommend? I can probably stretch to £7/800 if necessary, but I'd rather stick somewhere around the £5/600 mark if that is at all possible (though, although I am looking for a 'budget' set, I don't want to buy complete ****!).
I came across a Campagnolo Bullet 50 Carbon Clincher wheelset which I can pick up for around £600 from the looks of things. They generally seem to get favourable reviews. Any thoughts? Or other options perhaps?
Also, this is a ridiculously newbish question, but I have noticed that on the options these wheels provide you can either choose 'Shimano/SRAM 9/10/11' or, for example, 'Campagnolo 9/10/11'. Presumably, you just choose the option that matches your rear derailieur? (i.e. Shimano in my case).
The other option I thought of was to upgrade my chainset from Tiagra to Shimano 105. It looks like I can get a 105 5800 groupset for about £280 if I shop around. From what I have researched, however, a lighter wheelset is likely to provide me with more of a noticeable upgrade.
I started road biking about 9 months ago and absolutely love it. I picked up a Merida Ride Carbon Comp 93 on the cycle-to-work scheme and have covered a lot of distance in it since. On a regular route of mine that I do most nights after work (come light, dark, sun or rain!) I have reduced my average time by 40% since I started and it is really rewarding pushing every time I go out.
That said, I think I am at a stage where I would like to start 'tinkering' with my bike. I have done quite a bit of research and I understand that one of the most effective upgrades you can do is to replace the stock wheelset with some carbon ones. I don't really want to buy a flashy set of wheels because (to be frank) I don't want to spend £2k on some wheels for my bike and, at my amateurish level, I would look rather silly!
Are there any 'budget' wheels out there that anyone can recommend? I can probably stretch to £7/800 if necessary, but I'd rather stick somewhere around the £5/600 mark if that is at all possible (though, although I am looking for a 'budget' set, I don't want to buy complete ****!).
I came across a Campagnolo Bullet 50 Carbon Clincher wheelset which I can pick up for around £600 from the looks of things. They generally seem to get favourable reviews. Any thoughts? Or other options perhaps?
Also, this is a ridiculously newbish question, but I have noticed that on the options these wheels provide you can either choose 'Shimano/SRAM 9/10/11' or, for example, 'Campagnolo 9/10/11'. Presumably, you just choose the option that matches your rear derailieur? (i.e. Shimano in my case).
The other option I thought of was to upgrade my chainset from Tiagra to Shimano 105. It looks like I can get a 105 5800 groupset for about £280 if I shop around. From what I have researched, however, a lighter wheelset is likely to provide me with more of a noticeable upgrade.
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Comments
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I wouldn't necessarily say the upgrade has to be to carbon. Depending on your routes/weight/riding style/ability other possibilities are:
Handbuilts - cheaper in the long term as replacable parts, can specify exactly what you want.
Lower spoke factory wheels (mavic krysium/campag zonda/fulcrum racing/Shimano RS80). Can be expensive if parts break/wear as they tend to be disposable.
I have a pair of 50mm carbon clinchers and campag zondas, and I am pushed to really tell the difference. I ride fairly quickly, but evidently not fast enough! I ride a closer cassette on the carbon wheels for rolling terrain and a wider one on the zondas for climbing.
Something a bit lighter and stiffer may make an awful lot of difference, and you can get a considerable upgrade by spending only a fraction of the amount. £300 will get you most of the wheels mentioned above.
Of course if you must have carbon wheels, then there are many places to look. Planet-X are reasonably priced. Personally, I hate the look of aluminium brake tracks so would look elsewhere. Wheelsmith will hand make you carbon wheels with a carbon brake track for about £750 or so but there may be a wait.
BTW - it takes all of 5 minutes to swap the wheels and brake pads over, max.0 -
BTW - it takes all of 5 minutes to swap the wheels and brake pads over, max.
Whether you want to admit it or not, swapping pads every time you swap the wheels is a major PITA, especially because you might not get a perfect alignemnt straightaway and if you don't align them as they were the previous time, you get crap performance and all sorts of squeaks. It takes the same time and effort as swapping a chainset and takes significantly longer than swapping a stem or a seatpost, yet you wouldn't even dream of doing that day in day out.
If you can't run the same pads for all your wheels and you want to swap them frequently, it's advisable to get a second bikeleft the forum March 20230 -
In my experience that simply is not true. If it was the case I wouldn't have different wheels.
Release lock screw, remove old pads, insert new ones. I don't even have to bee too anal about ensuring I keep front and rear in the same place each time0 -
In my experience that simply is not true. If it was the case I wouldn't have different wheels.
Release lock screw, remove old pads, insert new ones. I don't even have to bee too anal about ensuring I keep front and rear in the same place each time
From what I have seen, you are not particularly anal in general...
As your rims wear, the pads wear with them, if you don't align them correctly, you will always have problems of poor braking performance, uneven wear, squeaking and so on. In addition, some rims have such a narrow brake track (down to 7 mm) that if you don't spend a few minutes making sure the pads are perfeclty aligned, you will end up damaging the tyre or having poor performanceleft the forum March 20230 -
Is that then the case for people who swap wheels even though they all have aluminium brake surfaces?0
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Is that then the case for people who swap wheels even though they all have aluminium brake surfaces?
They don't swap the pads, do they? Their rims will wear accordinglyleft the forum March 20230 -
But the alignment may be too high or too low, as you said - aligned on one wheel may not be the case on another. Different rims of different alloys may be stronger, softer, tougher.
You're making an issue out of a non-issue.0 -
You're making an issue out of a non-issue.
I am just disagreeing with your advice based on the above. It's the internet, many opinions... the OP is free to pick what he likes bestleft the forum March 20230 -
Swapping brake pads is a faff - unless it's for racing when you might think it's worth the effort setting your bike up the night before you want one set of wheels on your bike and imo for the OP I doubt those should be full carbon.
For the budget anything deep section with an alloy braking surface is going to be heavy (if he can find anything for that price) so that leaves a set of nice, light shallow section alloy clinchers - handbuilt or factory. I'm happy enough with my factory Fulcrum Racing Zeros but they are Summer use only and I leave them on for races, the Alps etc - for all year use something with brass nipples, rims you can replace economically etc would probably be the way to go.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Also, this is a ridiculously newbish question, but I have noticed that on the options these wheels provide you can either choose 'Shimano/SRAM 9/10/11' or, for example, 'Campagnolo 9/10/11'. Presumably, you just choose the option that matches your rear derailieur? (i.e. Shimano in my case).
If you're running 11-speed then you can essentially run Shimano/Campagnolo/SRAM wheels across all platforms. The only difference will bbe if you wanted to buy a new cassette - then you'd have to get a specific 11-speed casstte for that type of wheel as they uses a different 'spline'. Here's an article that explains it:
http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/cassette-and-freewheel-removal
If you're running 9/10 speed then you will need to stick to the freewheel of your brand - in your case Shimano (and SRAM).
For wheels - I reckon you're after a bit of bling rather than all-out aero weightweenie madness. IMO a pair of Mavic Cosmic Carbone SLS would be a safe bet. Alu track, deep section and they make a nice noise.0 -
BTW - it takes all of 5 minutes to swap the wheels and brake pads over, max.
Whether you want to admit it or not, swapping pads every time you swap the wheels is a major PITA, especially because you might not get a perfect alignemnt straightaway and if you don't align them as they were the previous time, you get crap performance and all sorts of squeaks. It takes the same time and effort as swapping a chainset and takes significantly longer than swapping a stem or a seatpost, yet you wouldn't even dream of doing that day in day out.
If you can't run the same pads for all your wheels and you want to swap them frequently, it's advisable to get a second bike
Second this.
On occasion I swap my carbon wheels for the alu wheels and not only does it require a change in pads but the rim widths are different and the brake pads are slightly different depths, as are the braking tracks on the rims so it requires resetting the pads. If I don't realign the pad position then the pad rubs the tyre when braking and that spells sidewall blowout.
Taking the pads off can be a task in itself since they changed the screw that holds them in the shoe to have an Allen key socket rather than a Philips cross head. Those tiny Allen sockets round off really easily and the keys at that size are never made as precisely as necessary.
Then it can be a case of slackening off the cable which will eventually fray and repositioning the shoe as well.0 -
Seriously? I change my wheels on a weekly basis and go through none of this nonsense.
I have 5800 brakes and it's a flathead to change. It did take a couple of goes to get the pads in the right place for both wheels, but now it neither rubs the tyres nor the decals.
If the pads are thicker or the wheels are wider, use the barrel adjusters.0 -
Seriously? I change my wheels on a weekly basis and go through none of this nonsense.
I have 5800 brakes and it's a flathead to change. It did take a couple of goes to get the pads in the right place for both wheels, but now it neither rubs the tyres nor the decals.
If the pads are thicker or the wheels are wider, use the barrel adjusters.
It sounds like the wheels you swap between are similar. Lucky for you
But there is no guarantee the OP will have a similar experience especially as the trend is for wider and wider rims.
I haven't swapped my own wheels for a while now but I know if it was just a case of opening the barrel adjuster a bit then I would have just done that. I definitely have to realign the pads to prevent tyre rub.0 -
Seems to be the case. Had no idea it could be such a palaver!0
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Hi all,
I started road biking about 9 months ago and absolutely love it. I picked up a Merida Ride Carbon Comp 93 on the cycle-to-work scheme and have covered a lot of distance in it since. On a regular route of mine that I do most nights after work (come light, dark, sun or rain!) I have reduced my average time by 40% since I started and it is really rewarding pushing every time I go out.
That said, I think I am at a stage where I would like to start 'tinkering' with my bike. I have done quite a bit of research and I understand that one of the most effective upgrades you can do is to replace the stock wheelset with some carbon ones. I don't really want to buy a flashy set of wheels because (to be frank) I don't want to spend £2k on some wheels for my bike and, at my amateurish level, I would look rather silly!
Are there any 'budget' wheels out there that anyone can recommend? I can probably stretch to £7/800 if necessary, but I'd rather stick somewhere around the £5/600 mark if that is at all possible (though, although I am looking for a 'budget' set, I don't want to buy complete ****!).
I came across a Campagnolo Bullet 50 Carbon Clincher wheelset which I can pick up for around £600 from the looks of things. They generally seem to get favourable reviews. Any thoughts? Or other options perhaps?
Also, this is a ridiculously newbish question, but I have noticed that on the options these wheels provide you can either choose 'Shimano/SRAM 9/10/11' or, for example, 'Campagnolo 9/10/11'. Presumably, you just choose the option that matches your rear derailieur? (i.e. Shimano in my case).
The other option I thought of was to upgrade my chainset from Tiagra to Shimano 105. It looks like I can get a 105 5800 groupset for about £280 if I shop around. From what I have researched, however, a lighter wheelset is likely to provide me with more of a noticeable upgrade.
The other option is to sit tight, ride your bike through the winter and save the money to upgrade your bike ready for next summer?0 -
Nonsense. Summer is now! Get out and ride!0
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I recently bought some Mavic Cosmics as my first wheel upgrade. They're very light, very aero and roll really well. Only £211 from PBK, why spend more I say
Set some seriously good Strava PB's since having these ! 0 -
Thank you for the response all! Some interesting discussion on brake pad swaps... :P
I am not a fan of bling in all honesty. I just looked at upgrading wheels to lighter ones since from what I have read that appears to be the most effective way of improving performance and one of the first things that should be upgraded.
If that is not the case, or is not as performance enhancing as some would suggest it to be, I am all for saving my money and sticking with stock wheels!! Ha ha. The current wheels on my bike are Alex Race24 rims with Tiagra hubs, I believe. [EDIT] Also happy to not spend as much as I had budgeted if there is a serious case of diminishing returns past, say, £300 on a wheel set, of course!
In terms of how much tinkering I do. I am quite comfortable with basic maintenance of my bike, but I would rather leave the same wheels on my bike year round. I ride mainly for recreation/fitness at the moment (weight loss probably accounts for cutting my riding times by 40% over the past 9 months!!).0 -
There are plenty of cheaper options out there. I use PX CT45s and 50mm full carbon clinchers on my main bike and as Ugo has suggested, it's a lot easier when there is no necessity to swap the brake pads over to accommodate an alloy braking rim. Especially with a rear brake under the BB. CT45s are around £400 and my carbon clinchers were £500. The clinchers are around 1450g which is better than Mavics. On the spare I do switch brake pads to put Fulcrum Racing 3s on but lining them up correctly and toeing in is not a 5 minute job.I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0
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I am not a fan of bling in all honesty. I just looked at upgrading wheels to lighter ones since from what I have read that appears to be the most effective way of improving performance and one of the first things that should be upgraded.
Lighter wheels will feel "lighter" but won't improve performance noticably.
http://www.biketechreview.com/index.php/reviews/wheels/63-wheel-performance
Some conclusions
So, what do all these numbers mean? It means that when evaluating wheel performance, wheel aerodynamics are the most important, distantly followed by wheel mass. Wheel inertia effects in all cases are so small that they are arguably insignificant.
How can it be that wheel inertial forces are nearly insignificant, when the advertisements say that inertia is so important? Quite simply, inertial forces are a function of acceleration. In bike racing this peak acceleration is about .1 to .2 g’s and is generally only seen when beginning from an initial velocity of 0 (see criterium race data in Appendix D ). Furthermore, the 0.3kg/0.66lb difference in wheels, even if this mass is out at the rim, is so small compared to your body mass that the differences in wheel inertia will be unperceivable. Any difference in acceleration due to bicycle wheels that is claimed by your riding buddies is primarily due to cognitive dissonance, or the placebo effect (they paid a lot of money for the wheels so there must be some perceivable gain).0 -
I am not a fan of bling in all honesty. I just looked at upgrading wheels to lighter ones since from what I have read that appears to be the most effective way of improving performance and one of the first things that should be upgraded.
Lighter wheels will feel "lighter" but won't improve performance noticably.
http://www.biketechreview.com/index.php/reviews/wheels/63-wheel-performance
Some conclusions
So, what do all these numbers mean? It means that when evaluating wheel performance, wheel aerodynamics are the most important, distantly followed by wheel mass. Wheel inertia effects in all cases are so small that they are arguably insignificant.
How can it be that wheel inertial forces are nearly insignificant, when the advertisements say that inertia is so important? Quite simply, inertial forces are a function of acceleration. In bike racing this peak acceleration is about .1 to .2 g’s and is generally only seen when beginning from an initial velocity of 0 (see criterium race data in Appendix D ). Furthermore, the 0.3kg/0.66lb difference in wheels, even if this mass is out at the rim, is so small compared to your body mass that the differences in wheel inertia will be unperceivable. Any difference in acceleration due to bicycle wheels that is claimed by your riding buddies is primarily due to cognitive dissonance, or the placebo effect (they paid a lot of money for the wheels so there must be some perceivable gain).
Thank you for your very detailed answer!
So, are you basically saying 'don't bother' getting new wheels? Or at the very least, look for more aerodynamic wheels rather than lighter wheels?0 -
I went through endless deliberations though was restricted by needing a UCI approved wheelset for deep rims.
Eventually bought 2 sets; zonda for £200 for hilly sportive and cosmic carbonne 50 SLS for TT bike £520 from Germany
I did have full carbon on the TT bike but also didn't like the pain of changing brake pads between race and training wheels (though on my TT bike brakes are harder to access)
This combo would also meet your budgetTri Coaching
https://www.h3otriathlon.com0 -
If I was you I would save my money for now.
Get a new bike next spring. Save the current bike for a winter hack/commuter.
That said, if you want a bang-for-buck upgrade go for some Zondas.0 -
People seem to be saying a lot of different things so I'll give you my personal experience seeing as I have tried a few different wheels in the last year. I was in your position looking for a decent wheel upgrade and this is what I have learned.
Bottom line: spend a bit and get something aero and reputable, but certainly don't buy at full retail price - look for good condition second hand or maybe heavily reduced new if you cba with buying second hand. Use latex tubes and a good quality tyre (I'm very much enjoying my 25mm Schwalbe Ones at the moment). Look for something with a wide rim as this will give a good ride (e.g. 23mm and above)
I currently own 3 wheelsets: Reynolds Strike SGLs (62mm full carbon clincher), Fuclrum Racing Zeros (lightweight factory built clincher) and some H plus son Archetypes on Powertap/Aviee (handbuilt wheels from Strada for general riding).
The Reynolds are absolutely lovely to ride, I would pick them every single time over the Racing Zeros or the handbuilts (except if its wet, then I would use the handbuilts, or if I was going to Wales, then I might pick the Zeros). They hold speed beautifully and despite the fact that they are not light (probably about 1800g for the set - about 300g more than the Racing Zeros) they are a joy to use (I live in North Bucks by the way, not anywhere super hilly, I'm regularly in the Chilterns though, so not super flat either). It takes noticeably less effort to maintain a given speed and sprinting or going anywhere quick is just fantastic. Even riding slowly is a pleasure in fact. I take my Strikes out on 14mph recovery rides just because I enjoy riding them so much!
They are also very comfortable. The Reynolds are kept on a Specialized Tarmac SL3 S Works - not a bike that you would usually describe as forgiving and yet they managed to achieve a level of ride comfort that is only just below my steel Genesis Equilibrium 853. I have no problem riding the S Works all day, or several days in a row, and I think a good part of that is down to wheels. (plus latex tubes and good tyres obviously)
I picked up the Strikes on eBay for 700 quid, new and unused. I think they usually retail at about 1100. If you're not quite ready to spend that much yet, get some handbuilts. I'd go for something like a Pancetti SL23 on a good quality hub but dont spend more that 350/400 because otherwise you may as well save a bit more and get something really good. If and when I upgrade it will be a pair of Reynolds Aero 58/72s (Reynolds premium carbon clincher, but nearly twice the price).
The disadvantage of the Strikes is they are sphincter clenching-ly bad in the wet but apart from that I have no problems. Some might say the weight is a disadvantage, and it might be if I lived in the Peaks, but I think its minor and not something I really notice at all. I'm 66kg and enjoy riding up hills too - there's a certain satisfaction to be found in powering your 62mm wheels uphill past the rest of the club You wouldn't want them as your only wheelset tho, you need something cheap and aluminium to fall back on when the weather turns.
The Racing Zeros are not really worth owning for me to be honest, I should sell them, but I will use them in a few hill climbs at the end of the season. They are lovely and stiff though, great for sprinting up climbs or just for making the Equilibrium into a bit more of a lively ride for summer.
Rambled on a wee bit there but I hope some of that is useful for you and others...0 -
So, are you basically saying 'don't bother' getting new wheels? Or at the very least, look for more aerodynamic wheels rather than lighter wheels?
Weigth only matters (a little) when climbing.
For the aerodynamic advantage I 'll give you 1 example:
For riding 40 Km/h (no wind) you need approx. 300 Watt.
If you intent to raise the speed to 41 Km/h at 300 W you need app. 5% more power OR decrease the total resistance with 5%.
So you need to save app. 15 Watts at your wheels only......
The difference in lumpy low end wheels and top aerodynamic wheels MIGHT be in that range.
The difference between reasonable wheels and good wheels is far less....
I bet you wo'nt even notice any speed difference between the stock Alex24's and some middle class wheels
in the 300-400 quid range.
My advice: don't look at weight and get yourself a set with rim height 25-30 mm, internal width 17-19 mm.
you can ride 23 -25 tyres with lower pressure so that gives a more pleasant ride with better roadholding without getting pinch flats.0 -
So, are you basically saying 'don't bother' getting new wheels? Or at the very least, look for more aerodynamic wheels rather than lighter wheels?
Weigth only matters (a little) when climbing.
For the aerodynamic advantage I 'll give you 1 example:
For riding 40 Km/h (no wind) you need approx. 300 Watt.
If you intent to raise the speed to 41 Km/h at 300 W you need app. 5% more power OR decrease the total resistance with 5%.
So you need to save app. 15 Watts at your wheels only......
The difference in lumpy low end wheels and top aerodynamic wheels MIGHT be in that range.
The difference between reasonable wheels and good wheels is far less....
I bet you wo'nt even notice any speed difference between the stock Alex24's and some middle class wheels
in the 300-400 quid range.
My advice: don't look at weight and get yourself a set with rim height 25-30 mm, internal width 17-19 mm.
you can ride 23 -25 tyres with lower pressure so that gives a more pleasant ride with better roadholding without getting pinch flats.
I understand where you are coming from with this but I can offer some additional comment.
1. Lighter wheels feel more responsive to your efforts. Perhaps this is a small amount in terms of watts but in terms of feel its significant. On Saturday I was rising with my mate who has just sent his Mavic Ksyrium SLR WTS exalith back to Canyon, therefore he was riding a stock set of giant hoops that were pretty basic and probably more than 500g heavier. He kept up with me fine but his perception was that it was much harder work.
Yes there comes a point where you wont notice a weight saving but for me getting a set of wheels <1600g is a worthy ambition. I think most people will notice an improvement in responsiveness at that weight particularly when moving from stock wheels.
2. I agree with the comments that wider rims and tyres "feels" better. The Pacenti SL23 seems a good option at present
I had a set of 50mm chinese carbon clinchers. They looked fabulous on my bike, but they didn't feel as good as my 1550g alloy clinchers. they were a harsher ride, squealed under breaking (and required more force to stop) and I didn't care too much for the wobble in crosswinds. I wanted to love them but reality was different. Descending the col de la Croix Morand last week would have stressed them and me as I dragged my brakes in the steeper areas. ( I am a crap descender)
For me now feel > looks when it comes to wheels.0 -
Yes, wheels can feel responsive,but don't expect any significant performance gain.
I know the feeling ,In the old days I rode with 300 gr. tubular rims with 150 gr tubulars....
It's a pitfall where lots of people go wrong.
Take a look on Weight Weenies and notice where people mention the words:
Spin up fast
Massive difference
Sluggish feeling etc.
Anyone who wants superlight or super deep rims for the looks has my blessings, but don't expect wonders.
I personally don't care at all for looks and ride my 1,7 kg 28 spoke shallow clichers under all circumstances. they don't hold me back.0 -
I think it's fair to say there are differences between stock wheels and a nice pair of 28 or 32h wheels. They do feel more zippy, as stock wheels can feel quite dead, without trying to quantify it as anything more than feel, as it may not affect your times.
That said, when put under harder riding, a nicer pair of wheels will come up trumps.0
