Titanium Frameset, 25mm Gatorskins and Loss of Power
ck101
Posts: 222
At significant expense I recently bought a Titanium Frameset (without a test ride) from one of the major leading brands to replace my 725 steel winter bike. I have it kitted out with Gatorskins 25mm. I also have a Ritchey WCS Carbon Seatpost which seems to flex a lot. It has sloping geometry which is a little different than my usual steed a Felt F1 so theres a fair amount of post to flex.
Had it out on a maiden voyage today and I cant believe how much Im being bounced about just turning the pedals. I'm also noticing a major loss of power and cant seem to keep the usual Avg speeds.
Could the flexy seatpost and the 25mm Gatorskins be causing the issue here.
Feeling a little disappointed with my recent investment.
Had it out on a maiden voyage today and I cant believe how much Im being bounced about just turning the pedals. I'm also noticing a major loss of power and cant seem to keep the usual Avg speeds.
Could the flexy seatpost and the 25mm Gatorskins be causing the issue here.
Feeling a little disappointed with my recent investment.
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Comments
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It must be upsetting to be disappointed by a major new buy you've been thinking about... My commiserations.
Your first port of call, rather than a forum, might be the supplier. A good LBS will have discussed some of the variables with you before purchase and may be expecting to hear back from you if all is not hunky-dory.
I'm quite surprised you're getting (or generating) enough flex to affect significantly the times you're managing purely because of frame flex or a bendy seat post.
If you normally ride on 700c x 23 tyres, a 25 might be a part of the cause. They are generally run a little softer (70-80 psi) and will offer a splodgier contact patch. Also, in comparison with a 23 they may seem a little soft and 'giving'. This can slow you down or can seem to slow you down.
Speak to the supplier; in my experience they are understanding and are inclined to make some effort to give you a bike you enjoy owning. If you bought online, this may not apply. But you will have paid a lower price.0 -
Could the flexy seatpost and the 25mm Gatorskins be causing the issue here.
No - the problem is most likely down to you.0 -
Thanks for that Imposter, can't say it hasn't crossed my mind.0
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Thanks for that Imposter, can't say it hasn't crossed my mind.
Power is down to the person, speed is down to those 25mm tyres.I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles0 -
Stuck on a set of Easton EA90RT tubeless setup today, headed out for two hours and noticed a difference.
Not major but there all the same. Warming up to it.0 -
A
Had it out on a maiden voyage today and I cant believe how much Im being bounced about just turning the pedals. I'm also noticing a major loss of power and cant seem to keep the usual Avg speeds.
Could the flexy seatpost and the 25mm Gatorskins be causing the issue here.
Feeling a little disappointed with my recent investment.
Lots of people are disappointed by 25's after the first ride....
Especially when they punp the same pressure as the narrower tyres.
Tyres with more volume NEED lower pressure to provide eqal or better comfort than smaller tyres...
Gatotskins make it even worse.0 -
Lots of people are disappointed by 25's after the first ride....
Especially when they punp the same pressure as the narrower tyres.
Tyres with more volume NEED lower pressure to provide eqal or better comfort than smaller tyres...
Gatotskins make it even worse.
If you are after increased comfort then lower pressure is required but the op is not questioning the comfort. They are posting about the decrease in speed they have experienced. If they want to increase speed then letting air out of the tyre would counter productive. Better to pump them up to the same pressure they would on a 23mm tyre and get a decrease in rolling resistance.0 -
I dont know a lot... but if I was wanting a fast ride... dont think I'd be using Gatorskins as being high up on my list of fast rollers.
I've been using Schwalbe One clinchers on my Fulcrum Zero training wheels since... Jan this year.. seen a fair amount usage training and racing.. the 25mm version will be going on the back wheel with 23 on the front when replacement time arrives.0 -
Get rid of the Gatorskins. I'd rather ride on bare rims with a hungry piranha as a saddle than ride those hose pipes. If you gave Gatorskins to settlers in wagons going over cobbles 100 years ago, they would tar and feather you for being a dick.English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg0
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Lots of people are disappointed by 25's after the first ride....
Especially when they punp the same pressure as the narrower tyres.
Tyres with more volume NEED lower pressure to provide eqal or better comfort than smaller tyres...
Gatotskins make it even worse.
If you are after increased comfort then lower pressure is required but the op is not questioning the comfort. They are posting about the decrease in speed they have experienced. If they want to increase speed then letting air out of the tyre would counter productive. Better to pump them up to the same pressure they would on a 23mm tyre and get a decrease in rolling resistance.
Only in the ideal world with perfect tarmac.0 -
I have 25mm Gatorskins on two bikes. While they may not be as fast as race tyres, they won't cause bouncing about like you describe.
You say that the new frame is to replace the steel frame on your winter bike - what sort of tyres did you have on your winter bike before?0 -
Getting back on point and without wanting to be cheeky but......At significant expense I recently bought a Titanium Frameset (without a test ride) from one of the major leading brands to replace my 725 steel winter bike. I have it kitted out with Gatorskins 25mm. I also have a Ritchey WCS Carbon Seatpost which seems to flex a lot. It has sloping geometry which is a little different than my usual steed a Felt F1 so theres a fair amount of post to flex.
Had it out on a maiden voyage today and I cant believe how much Im being bounced about just turning the pedals. I'm also noticing a major loss of power and cant seem to keep the usual Avg speeds.
Could the flexy seatpost and the 25mm Gatorskins be causing the issue here.
Feeling a little disappointed with my recent investment.
Are you heavier than a race snake?
When I was researching frame materials one constant that came up was that titanium could be too springy for a heavier rider.
Now, this will obviously come down to geometry and quality but maybe tyres are the least of your problems?
Oh, and Gatorskins are rubbish.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Saddle too low?0
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Gatorskins definitely won't add any bounce to your ride, they're rock hard.0
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Get rid of the Gatorskins. I'd rather ride on bare rims with a hungry piranha as a saddle than ride those hose pipes. If you gave Gatorskins to settlers in wagons going over cobbles 100 years ago, they would tar and feather you for being a dick.
That made me chuckle.
They aren't quite that bad - but they are somehow able to suck the life out of any ride with their heavy and dead feel.
GP4Seasons are much nicer to ride (if twice the price).0 -
I've no idea why there seems to be so much focus on tyres on this thread.
Yes, gatorskins are total carp. But I doubt they are the whole problem.
Without knowing too much, as the OP hasn't really given too much info, I would say bike fit position and wheels were far more likely to be the issue.
New frame, is your position dialled in? Are you sitting in exactly the same place over the bb? Look at your saddle height and layback. If you are bouncing around on the saddle I imagine it is too high. Measure your old bike if you can and go from there. You should be trying to replicate your old position exactly to compare
Wheels, you've already mentioned swapping in some others and seeing improvement. I'd suspect your lack of power feeling is coming from a combination of these two things.2020 Reilly Spectre - raw titanium
2020 Merida Reacto Disc Ltd - black on black
2015 CAAD8 105 - very green - stripped to turbo bike
2018 Planet X Exocet 2 - grey
The departed:
2017 Cervelo R3 DI2 - sold
Boardman CX Team - sold
Cannondale Synapse - broken
Cube Streamer - stolen
Boardman Road Comp - stolen0 -
I went from Ultremo zx 23mm last year to mavics own 25mm this year and didn't notice any difference in performance, I used the same pressure though, 120rear 100 front, I doubt it's the width of the tyre. I do run gators on my winter bike though and find them slower in comparison, are you sure it's not just the wind etc
What's the change in your average speed?One plays football, tennis or golf, one does not play at cycling0 -
Gatorskins are now up for sale. Strictly for touring or commuting me thinks, neither of which I do. Nice turn of speed with the Schwalbe Ultremo tubeless setup and easy enough to install I might add.
I did carefully measure my position off my other bike for which I had a professional fitting. I am getting a serious amount of flex from the Ritchey WCS carbon post which is nearly at its maximum.
Might try an alloy post and see if it makes a difference. Re the drop in speed there hasn't been one, just noticing significant effort keeping to my old average which is 27-30kph on the flat.
Thanks for the comments guys.0 -
This could get interesting.A more pliant frame demands that you ride in sympathy with it, not pedal in squares like a gorilla. It’s a modern idea that frames lose energy if they flex a bit. In fact the frame stores energy and returns it later in the pedal stroke, provided you pedal with a smooth, circular style.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
A more pliant frame demands that you ride in sympathy with it, not pedal in squares like a gorilla. It’s a modern idea that frames lose energy if they flex a bit. In fact the frame stores energy and returns it later in the pedal stroke, provided you pedal with a smooth, circular style.
:roll:
Trev?English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg0 -
Already covered here - viewtopic.php?f=40013&t=13033115&start=20Poor use of your 5000th post, Grill. And who’s Trev?
What I said shouldn’t be controversial. You can’t mash a lightweight titanium frame like you can a fat carbon frame. That doesn’t mean it’s slow. It just means you have to know how to pedal to get the best out of it.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Get rid of the Gatorskins. I'd rather ride on bare rims with a hungry piranha as a saddle than ride those hose pipes. If you gave Gatorskins to settlers in wagons going over cobbles 100 years ago, they would tar and feather you for being a dick.
Please Grill, stop sitting on that fence - say what you mean
PS Couldn't agree with you more.
I have my ill advised purchase of Gatorskins on the turbo trainer bike0 -
I've had three different titanium frames and I generally found them to be flexier than any other material. Whether that equates to a loss of speed is open to question but you definitely get the impression that some pedalling effort is going into flexing the frame rather than going faster.
It's a bit like getting out of the saddle on a full-sus mountain bike where all you feel like is that you are going up and down rather than forwards.
A stiffer material like carbon fibre or even aluminium gives a much more direct feel if that's what you prefer. I don't think a different seatpost will make much difference either way.0 -
I've had three different titanium frames and I generally found them to be flexier than any other material. Whether that equates to a loss of speed is open to question but you definitely get the impression that some pedalling effort is going into flexing the frame rather than going faster.
It's a bit like getting out of the saddle on a full-sus mountain bike where all you feel like is that you are going up and down rather than forwards.
A stiffer material like carbon fibre or even aluminium gives a much more direct feel if that's what you prefer. I don't think a different seatpost will make much difference either way.
It really depends on the frame. As with other materials, you get what you pay for.
I have two - an off the shelf Lynskey cross, which is actually pretty harsh riding, and a high end custom ti road bike, which is more refined, with stiffness where its needed. It handles brilliantly (usually a sign of things staying in line) and climbs like the ball-crunchingly stiff aluminium frame it replaced.
I hear that some of the very light Sevens were a bit bendy, as were the Airbornes (now Van Nich) but I think the stereotype is now a bit out of date. Perhaps butted ti frames are different (the likes of Moots, Firefly, Eriksen et al. don't normally use butted tubing because it reduces torsional stiffness). Perhaps if you buy a no-name ti frame from alibaba it can be different as well.
I've never had a carbon road frame. I'm sure they are a bit stiffer, but the ti frame is not why I'm slow.0 -
It’s a modern idea that frames lose energy if they flex a bit. In fact the frame stores energy and returns it later in the pedal stroke, provided you pedal with a smooth, circular style.
Its a long time since I did A level physics, but I've never been able to figure out how a flexed frame can return any energy through rotating the crank.0 -
Why so reticent to mention the brand of the bike? "from one of the major leading brands"
I have experience of titanium frames, interested to know what you're comparing it with, something carbon maybe?
Ti bikes that I've owned seem to 'wind up', they don't give that eager acceleration but it's mostly down to feel, difficult to tell the difference with a stopwatch etc.0 -
It’s a modern idea that frames lose energy if they flex a bit. In fact the frame stores energy and returns it later in the pedal stroke, provided you pedal with a smooth, circular style.
Its a long time since I did A level physics, but I've never been able to figure out how a flexed frame can return any energy through rotating the crank.
Ah, but you'd easily be able to figure it out if you had an A level in Horseshit.0
