LBS Just Screwed me, Right?

Biomech

There was a rattle in my left shifter and my gears weren't shifting a smoothly as they should so I took it into my local bike shop for a fix. I'm a fiddler and have a charity ride coming up in a few days so didn't want to wreck anything.

They've been amazing in a past and often tweaked the gear cables/adjustments in about 3 minutes for free when I've just gone past.

This time, the guy tells me I need a new gear cable because mines shredded - it's not, the sheath had worn through where it was caught behind my go pro mount. There's not a single strand of the cable broken and it's never caused a problem. It needs replacing at SOME point sure, but is not causing any problems.

Then he says I need a new chain, and measures the links with a non adjustable spanner looking piece of metal with a tooth on each end, the teeth fit into the chain link/gaps at each end of the took. There's a tool for that, so I can't argue I guess.

Then he says I need a new cassette!
The cassette looks fine to me, I keep the bike indoors and clean it well using a ceramic lube and GT85. The chain has NEVER slipped, it's just not engaging fully when shifting in some gears across. A replacement shimano cassette he points out is £15, although I think it's unrequired, it seems very cheap for an important component.

Now here's the thing. I've had the nearly 12 months, I ride occasionally 9-15 miles and to town/gym a few times a week. My computer reads 625 miles since I've had it, so that plus 2miles (total) to town and back maybe 2-3 times a week

I realise there are a lot of factors involved and I'll try and get photos if I can. I'm average build and 95kg, ride short distances, typically in the dry, on the roads. I don't believe I ride cross chained all that much. I clean and lube every few weeks or if I think the chain looks too black.

They're screwing me right?

The bike is a giant defy, taken in with stock chain and cassette.

craigus89

Chain and cassette are renewables. Cassettes round off, chains stretch. I would want mine replaced after 12 months.

Have you had the bike serviced since you've owned it?

Biomech

UPDATE:

So I picked it up. The shifter is fixed and the gears are smoother. They replaced the gear cable and sheath, the chain and the cassette - and there's £5 in "lube/degreaser" added here too. Lube for the new parts but I stripped and cleaned it last night anyway, the "old" cassette was sparkling silver.

The work order states: Save old parts: YES.

So I asked if I could have the old parts when I collected it, A: because I like to fiddle and an old chain would let me practice replacing chain links which I haven't done yet and B: To compare the cassette and show you guys photos.

They said it was all in the bin, but went and got the chain. They said the old cassette was in the skip because when the bin gets full they just dump it in the skip (but they just gave me the chain) and upon looking the cassette couldn't be found because it was so deep in the skip.

At £15, I'm not going to go batty, but that cassette didn't need changing did it?

Biomech

I've had a "quick" service at the LBS at least twice before and I do strip and clean it myself every few weeks at least. I, personally, have replaced the tyres, adjusted cables etc to keep on top of maintenance

craigus89

I don't know why you think they are "screwing" you. For one thing, they didn't force you to have this done. You could have told them to leave the cassette and chain and just sort your shifting issue.

Without seeing pictures of the cassette we can't tell if it needed replacement, and there are a lot of factors that affect this besides the overall mileage.

sniper68

If he's used a chain checker and the chain has stretched to 0.75 then you should change the chain.
If it's stretched to 1.0 then it's usually chain/cassette and possibly new front rings also.
They might look OK but this is misleading.

If you replace the chain at 0.75 you'll get three or four chains to a cassette.
Wear all depends on conditions,how smooth you ride etc.
Worn chains/cassettes rarely slip as they wear together.If you take a severely worn chain off(1.0+) and put a new one on the worn cassette then in 99% of case that's when you get slipping!

Buy a chain checker.They cost a fiver and can save you £££££s!
Also learn to do it yourself,it's easy and will also save you ££££££s!

Biomech

Thanks for the info, I'm literally buying a chain checker now.

I just measured with a ruler, over 10 links, the chain had stretched 0.5cm, so going by your info, that's a pretty epic stretch!

If the guy was basing the cassette replacement on the chain tool measurement - because really, the teeth looked unworn - then that's cool and you have restored my faith in the LBS.

I get they are the professionals and know what they are doing, but there's quite a few people who say they rip you off around here so that added to what, in my intelligent yet inexperienced brain, told me, gave me doubts. Maybe it was a bit of a mechanic moment you know, you go in for one thing and suddenly they spew off a list of 50 unrelated things that need replacing without a second thought.

Given how the teeth looked and the fact that the old one magically disappeared into the skip without the other old parts, I'm still convinced it didn't need changing, however, if the chain was that stretched it's better to catch it early right!

But really, that all sounds fine then based on the info you've given me It wasn't costly either.

dgunthor

change your chain early and you'll get 3 or 4 chains to a cassette (good idea as you say to get a chain checker tool)

trailflow

625 miles ??? Yes i think you got screwed. You should be easily be able to get a least 1500-2000 miles out of a chain before replacing. i personally dont use chain checkers and prefer to run my cassette and chain into the ground. Are you using an 8 speed cassette ? becaues if you are you arn't really saving much money replacing them early because 8 speed chains and cassettes can be bought very cheap.

Next time you might think you need a new chain and cassette. Buy a new chain only and fit it. If it slips you need a new cassette.

If it doesnt slip. Carry on riding.

and the £5 lube/degreaser ? i take you came away with a bottle of lube ? If not then

First.Aspect

Nothing they've done is unreasonable, but it sounds like they haven't really been clear to you as to why its needed. I've never been charged for chain lube. £5 is daylight robbery. You should get your old bits back, really.

Taken as a whole, I'd say that you should chalk it down to experience and try somewhere else next time. It doesn't hurt to shop around.

Some places will also at least try a new chain on an old cassette to see if it slips. Their worry about doing this is that you get the bike home, put the power awesome through the chain and manage to get it to slip. The joy of doing your own wrenching is that you get to make all the mistakes and blame yourself for it.

markhewitt1978

It all sounds entirely reasonable. There's no set milage figures but 650 miles can be about the point where stuff like chains and cassettes can show some wear.

I had a new fit cassette one year where I put it on in early February but it was a particular bad Spring, come taking it to the shop in April the cassette had already worn out, probably only 300 miles or so. Put a new cassette on (myself) it's all good again.

So I'm not sure why you're jumping to the conclusion that the LBS ripped you off, based on what, exactly?

There's plenty who will say that their chain last for 10,000 miles and their cassette was the same one their grandad used when he were a lad. Personally I tend to put a new chain on before 1,000 miles, often a new cassette too.

Biomech

Thanks.

Yeah I like to understand things so saying "Hi, yeah we can fix what you have a problem with, and you need this this and this" isn't as ideal as "if I measure this you can see this, which means you need this because if you look here this happens" - you know.

I had a look on Google etc before posting and the general consensus (all things being equal) was that you could expect a cassette to last 2,000-6,000 miles. Personally I would assume a decent cassette to be in the region of £80-£250, certainly not £15!

The main thing was the shifter, I'd have a bash at most things, but certainly with a ride coming up this weekend I wouldn't want to take a shifter apart and not be able to get it back together :P

It is an 8 speed also, yes

trailflow

[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19653886#p19653886]markhewitt1978[/url] wrote:

So I'm not sure why you're jumping to the conclusion that the LBS ripped you off, based on what, exactly?

Based on the fact that chains last more than 625 miles.

a replacement every 1,000 miles? You are wasting your money.

Next time do an experiment to see how long you can get out of a chain and cassette. You'll be amazed.

markhewitt1978

a replacement every 1,000 miles? You are wasting your money.

Maybe I am. Given the cost of them I don't care

sniper68

Next time do an experiment to see how long you can get out of a chain and cassette. You'll be amazed.

I'm sure you can get 1000s of miles out of a chain/cassette but when you do replace it it will be chain/cassette/Chainrings and probably Jockey wheels too.
Much better to replace the chain regularly.I agree 625 miles(if this is accurate) is excessive but we don't know how much hammer the OP gives his drive train.
I'm heavy(ish) at 14.5st and it's very hilly where I ride and my chain has done almost 1500miles and is still not stretched to 0.75.
My Mountain bike chains however get hammered and i go through 4 or 5 a year.

Biomech

I wouldn't say I hammer it, I mostly ride as physio/fitness for a broken back, average out at 13.5-15mph. I hate up hills so stay clear of as many as I can :P I try and ride with a constant rotation rather than pump the pedals and very very rarely stand up. As I say, I'm 95kg (14.9st) and average in build (not fat). All cycling on the road or cement footpaths and 99% of the time in the dry. Clean and lube regularly. Just seemed strange to me that it would need to be replaced so soon!

sniper68

[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19653999#p19653999]Biomech[/url] wrote:

I wouldn't say I hammer it, I mostly ride as physio/fitness for a broken back, average out at 13.5-15mph. I hate up hills so stay clear of as many as I can :P I try and ride with a constant rotation rather than pump the pedals and very very rarely stand up. As I say, I'm 95kg (14.9st) and average in build (not fat). All cycling on the road or cement footpaths and 99% of the time in the dry. Clean and lube regularly. Just seemed strange to me that it would need to be replaced so soon!

Check it regularly with a chain-checker then you can decide when it needs replacing!
I'm about the same weight as you and do a lot of climbing and as I said my(ultegra) chain has done more than double yours.
it could just be one of those things.

keef66

It does sound a bit premature, especially for 8 speed stuff which is usually pretty robust, but by your own measurements the chain was very worn so the cassette would almost certainly have been too. Virtually impossible to spot cassette wear just by looking at the teeth. Maybe Giant fit cheap OEM chains?

Don't be suspicious of the new cassette, an 8 speed should only cost about £15. The 10 speed 105 ones I use are only £25 online.

£5 for lube is a joke though, unless they gave you the bottle.

dj58

If your bike is the Defy 4, the spec says it comes with a KMC Z7 chain, can you be sure that they gave you your old chain back though. 625mls does seem low, however there are so many variables that if he measured more than 0.75, they would automatically assume the cassette would be worn also. Do you cross chain alot?

As mentioned above, for the future by the tools/parts online when there are offers on and learn how to fit the chain/cassette yourself, will save you time and money in the long run.

k-dog

Personally I would assume a decent cassette to be in the region of £80-£250, certainly not £15!

Expensive ones are £100!

Good ones can be easily had for £25 or less depending on how many gears you need. Decent stuff (Tiagra etc) are around £15.

Biomech

If your bike is the Defy 4, the spec says it comes with a KMC Z7 chain, can you be sure that they gave you your old chain back though

That did cross my mind, because when I measured it was 5mm out over 10 links, I've youtubed today and 8 links are 8 inches, so 5mm in 10 links seem's really excessive to me. It is the Defy 4, All I can see on the chain links are KMC Z "narrow", so I assume it's mine. It was the cassette really that was the biggest shocker, but at £15 not that bad. But from the comments here if the chain was that stretched and he went simply by the chain measure tool, it makes sense to assume the cassette needed replacing too.

k-dog

Yeah, you measured that wrong. 3mm over 12 links is a lot of wear, I've never seen what is practically double that.

apreading

Sounds like the mechanic at least made the mistake of not treating you with the relevant level of respect in explaining to you what he was doing and why he drew the conclusions that he did.

I think many LBS will automatically replace cassette when chain needs replacing because a) its not hugely unreasonable and b) it makes them some money.

Running a worn chain and cassette which have worn together usually gives no problems as they are the same link length as each other but doing so will also wear the front chainrings which are more expensive to replace. And replacing the chain with a worn cassette still in use will possibly cause skipping as they are not in sync and stretch the new chain quicker.

Mileage is hard to go by because different chains are different, how much crud your chain picks up and how often/deeply you get that crud out of the links has a big effect, as do a whole load of other things. If you ride in winter when roads are gritted that can make a huge difference for example.

What the LBS did was plausible and these parts are consumables so need doing regularly anyway - they maybe went over the top slightly but if they did a good job and the price wasnt too unreasonable then not such a bad thing. Its when they do unnecessary work badly and you need to adjust things yourself afterwards that it is really annoying.

But £5 for lubing???? That is insane - if you bought the parts from them then often they wont charge anything to fit them and if they do charge for fitting, they shouldnt hide it under 'lube'... And chains come with great lube from the factory - I dont see what would have needed lubing on this job anyway???

At the very least, I would look for somewhere else who treat you more respectfully and dont take the wee wee.

markhewitt1978

Personally I would assume a decent cassette to be in the region of £80-£250, certainly not £15!

Whatever gave you that idea?! For my bike I can get a 10 speed Tiagra cassette for £12 which I would say is good. Ultegra for £30, which is very good, only when you get to Dura Ace at £100 does it start to get pricey.

For my riding the £12 cassette functions identically to the £100 one, and certainly doesn't require £250!

mugensi

It sounds to me that you were screwed. I think that they gave you an excessively worn chain (0.5cm over 10 links is huge!) that they had lying about knowing you wouldnt be able to distinguish it from the chain that was on your bike. The cassette wasnt worn and so they couldnt show you it as you'd be able to compare it to the new one. If they threw the cassette out why didnt they throw the chain out too?

CiB

I reckon they saw an opportunity and took it. You say you often pop in to have your gears tweaked for free? Do you pop into the shoe-shop to have your laces done up? Same thing - trivial thing to do, takes no knowledge once you've done it but straight away it marks you up as someone who appears not to know enough so you're on for being taken for a ride, maybe not as much as others might be but if you have help to do your gears you're flagging yourself up and maybe they thought it was time to get a bit back out of you. Maybe this is how women who get stung for car repairs feel, who knows...

Not saying all bike shops are crooks - my two favourites are above & beyond reproach, but using a shop to do the most basic and satisfying things necessary to keep a bike in order? Where's the sense of pride in knowing what's what?

600 miles out of chain is a bit naughty but they could just about argue it in extreme circumstances. A new cassette at the same distance, one that's been discarded so can't be checked, is taking the Michael Bliss. You were screwed, but it seems that you left yourself open to it.

bobones

They definitely screwed you. No way would an 8 speed chain and cassette be worn in 650 miles. I do a a fair few miles in all weathers, and in winter, a 10 speed chain will last me around 1200-1500 mi before needing to be replaced and the cassette will not skip with a new chain. On my good bike, which doesn't see much wet weather, I currently have 4,200 miles on the chain (Dura Ace) and cassette (Ultegra) and there is no sign of wear on the chain. I'll replace the chain at the .75 mark and the cassette should keep going for many thousands of miles.

Biomech

Oh I do as much of EVERYTHING myself as I can, whether it's building websites, fixing brickwork, cooking, trademark infringements, accounts, other people just screw you over so the less I have to rely on them the better.

When I first got the bike, if the gears crunched or didn't engage, I'd ask them to look and they'd adjust it - I mean when I first got the bike I had to ask where the gear shifters where because I'd never heard of STI's. I'll do everything myself if I can, I'll happily change parts out, but the gear cable I always found difficult to get spot on (because I have issues with things being perfect), so it was easier to mention it to them if I was passing. I mean I didn't take the piss expecting them to fix everything for free, I was happy to pay.

So likewise, I'm happy to replace a cassette and chain in the future, it's just sometimes there's that one thing that you just can't get right.

I still find it very suspect that they gave me an old chain but the old cassette had vanished.

jgsi

Plan B buddy.. Park Tools Blue book... read and learn.. buy the tools
if you screw up... this bit of the forum here to help as ever... 'cos we care.

whinge about LBSs .. post in another bit please.

Biomech

I look forward to playing

I actually got the Complete Road Bike Maintenance (Guy Andrews) for my birthday so working my way through that.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Road-Bike-Maintenance-Andrews/dp/1408170930

FWIW, my chain measure tool turned up about 2 minutes ago. My old chain dropped right in at 75 but not 1, so I must have measured something wrong with the ruler before :P

cycleclinic

funny how folk are saying you were screwed based on scant information. For starters the OP says he has done 650 miles. While we have to take his word for it I do also know that many customers under estimate or over estimate there mileage. bobones 4200 miles from a DA chain with no evidence of wear disqualifies you to make statements about whether the OP has been screwed or not. There will be wear I can assure you. Also if you change the chain the new chain will skip on the old cassette. DA cassettes are expensive and worth preserving.

The chain wear measurement tool are not perfect but are a pretty good guide. If they show 0.75% wear then that is a pretty good guide that the chain needs doing. Some shops will always change the cassette and chain together some will pop the new chain on and see if it slips I personally dont agree with this but I can see the reason. the cassette can only be reused if the old chain is not excessively worn because if it is very worn then when the customer goes out and comes back with that skipping feeling they have an irrate customer. the problem is quite difficult/impossible to spot the excessively worn sprocket and there it safer to change both.

Simply though going into a shop and immediately coming on here asking if you have been screwed and then getting the bike back working and then everyone deciding you have been screwed based on uncertain information is wrong. The shop has done work it has been paid for. unless there is something wrong with the job or the parts and labour charge is excessive and there is nothing in this thread to indicate that then you have not been screwed as you the OP cannot say that the chain was not worn. I have seen chains worn after a claimed 600 miles it is not common but it has happened maybe the claimed mileage is wrong!

Also speaking as a mechanic it is hard to spot wear on a cassette unless it is really excessive so getting the old cassette back would have told you nothing. Chains and cassettes should be changed fairly regularly (chains at 0.75% wear and the cassette can be used until the skipping starts or the shifting gets iffy) but with 8 speed given a replacement is less than £20 it make no sense to change the chain to save the cassette. The best option is to run it for about 2000 miles and bin both. This will remove the risk of chains breaking and the shifting will remain good so long as the cables remain slick.

If however you take the bike in for a service the comsumable parts will get replaced. that is what a service is about. This is why when someone asks me the cost of a service I say well that depends on whats worn and whats not. Normally most folk dont understand that and they might think I might be trying to screw them it is more a reflection of it is hard to say what a bike needs until you see it.

If the OP is not happy with the service from that LBS learn to do the jobs yourself, it is not hard but assuming everyone is out to screw you without evidence is sadly far too common these days.