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Greece/Europe?

FocusZingFocusZing Posts: 4,373
edited July 2015 in The cake stop
Vote no to austerity, will it be another sit down with Merkel or out of the EU?
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  • sungodsungod Posts: 14,352
    no reason for eu membership to be involved, greece may get forced out of the euro though

    the current and previous greek governements failed, they racked up unsustainable debt, failed to address tax evasion, and bought votes with money they didn't have; then they failed to take steps to reduce it, for years, doing these things would not be easy, but it's their job, instead it got worse, they failed

    it's clear greece will never be able to repay, in the end the creditors are going to pay for it, germany and other eurozone countries will bear the brunt, taxpayers included, but there'll be uk institutions affected as well

    it is going to be really nasty for a lot of people as they see their savings evaporate, prices soar and businesses fail, grim times
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 15,903
    Greece has to be ejected from the Eurozone. Any other action sends a message to the rest of the countries in the Eurozone that they are not bound by its constraints. Never mind the kick in the knackers it would be to Ireland, Spain and Italy.
    Greece never met the criteria for joining, everyone knows that, including the EU leaders and finance ministers in office at the time. A stark example of the political agenda trumping reality.
    It may give impetus to the Eurosceptics across Europe, as the fudge or dirty deals done around Greece's Euro membership becomes more clear.
    As regards Greece's membership of the EU? Is a trading partner who runs up massive debts, knowing that it would eventually have to default, an ideal member? No doubt we will have to see what further fudges are in store.
    As I said above, this mess is the result of the political agenda. The same way that the EU has accepted Eastern European countries before they were ready and courted Ukraine with disastrous results.
  • slowmartslowmart Posts: 4,182
    The Greeks will be nailed to the wall to keep Italy and Portugal from going the same route.

    An outcome of several years mis management from various and successive governments.
    “Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring”

    Desmond Tutu
  • ukiboyukiboy Posts: 891
    It's rough for Greece and one can only hope it will work out ok.
    But didn't the population in the past make a point of avoiding taxes, pretending to be blind to gain more benefits, understate their tax burden, make out that deceased parents were still alive etc etc.. All to milk the state to the maximum?
    Just goes to show that an economy based on giving its citizens a 'free ride' will NEVER work..
    Outside the rat race and proud of it
  • Quite simple really, when you borrow other people's money to pay for day to day expenditure eventually you either need to increase your earned income or cut down on expenditure to repay that debt.

    Greece (apparently) has a pretty huge tax evasion issue and provides highly generous pension benefits to those of a relatively young age and hasn't done much to deal with either of these issues.

    They clearly fudged the entry criteria to the Euro when their economy wasn't strong enough (although I wonder how much pressure they were under to do so).

    I suspect the current 'faffing around' is just a smokescreen for the EU and Greece (probably separately) working on a practical plan for them departing the Euro, I just can't see any other way out now, given they have rejected austerity as a country.

    They can't be allowed to default and stay in the club for several reasons 1) It's a big smack in the face to those who sorted their economy out, 2) It will encourage more financial mismanagement if there are no consequences & 3) Political repercussions around Europe of the Governments allowing the Greeks off their debt (which was funded by other European taxpayers) is enormous and would lead to a huge anti-euro backlash.

    QED. Greece will officially default, revert to Drachma2, suffer huge inflation, not be able to get credit and be driven into a serious and prolonged recession. But if you live beyond your means eventually that catches up with you.
  • Frank WilsonFrank Wilson Posts: 930
    The Greeks will be nailed to the wall to keep Italy and Portugal from going the same route.

    An outcome of several years mis management from various and successive governments.

    Portugal, by means of raising taxes, trying to cut out the black economy with the compulsory receipt legislation and much work by the GNR in fining motorists are pretty stable now.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 19,103
    The Greeks will be nailed to the wall to keep Italy and Portugal from going the same route.

    An outcome of several years mis management from various and successive governments.

    Portugal, by means of raising taxes, trying to cut out the black economy with the compulsory receipt legislation and much work by the GNR in fining motorists are pretty stable now.
    They have compulsory receipt legislation in Italy.
    How is that working out at cutting the black economy?

    PS:- We will soon (ish) find out how desperate they are for the EU project to work.
    1. Keep it whole at all costs.
    2. Cut the weak to preserve the strong.

    I have an inclination it will be option 1.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • VTechVTech Posts: 4,736
    There is only one fix and I'm surprised I've not heard anyone mention it on any of the news reports.

    Greece needs the finance department run by a third party, similar to when receivers are called in.
    Greece is corrupt, the people can censored and moan as much as they like but so many companies pay little or no tax and they only have their self to blame.
    Portugal is similar in collecting tax.

    Get someone like Price Waterhouse Cooper to run the coffers and see a return to positivity. The weird thing is, Greece earns enough to pay all debt and be profitable, they are simply mismanaged.

    I worked for someone very high up in council in Athens several times, I tuned his collection of Ferrari and he had the police close the roads along the seafront cliffs of Athens whilst we had an ex-F1 test driver do the driving whilst I wrote the code for the engines. This was a costly exercise given the current state of play in Greece yet it shows just how much mismanagement there was and still is within certain areas of Europe.

    Closing Greece down and throwing them to the lions will only hurt you people too, pension funds killed off, lost billions in loads etc. It is easy to look at this as simply a £12b debt for the UK and think it isn't in the same league as the German or French debt but remember this, a lot of your pensions are linked to the same French and German debt loaned to Greece so if that is written off, who do you think loses out ?

    With a new financial department as I have said above, you/me/we would all have a chance of watching the wonderful turnaround of Greece for the future.
    Living MY dream.
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Greece voted for no more Austerity, the EU is a democracy isnt it? they dont want a 3rd party, let alone PWC, managing their economy or they d have voted the other way.
    the thing is Vtech, you and your company were party to that corrupt use of public funds with the road closure? from what i ve read, it is the very wealthy who have damaged Greece the most, by getting Greece into the euro and before and after, not paying their taxes.
  • seanoconnseanoconn Posts: 9,141
    There is only one fix and I'm surprised I've not heard anyone mention it on any of the news reports.

    Greece needs the finance department run by a third party, similar to when receivers are called in.
    Greece is corrupt, the people can censored and moan as much as they like but so many companies pay little or no tax and they only have their self to blame.
    Portugal is similar in collecting tax.

    Get someone like Price Waterhouse Cooper to run the coffers and see a return to positivity. The weird thing is, Greece earns enough to pay all debt and be profitable, they are simply mismanaged.

    I worked for someone very high up in council in Athens several times, I tuned his collection of Ferrari and he had the police close the roads along the seafront cliffs of Athens whilst we had an ex-F1 test driver do the driving whilst I wrote the code for the engines. This was a costly exercise given the current state of play in Greece yet it shows just how much mismanagement there was and still is within certain areas of Europe.

    Closing Greece down and throwing them to the lions will only hurt you people too, pension funds killed off, lost billions in loads etc. It is easy to look at this as simply a £12b debt for the UK and think it isn't in the same league as the German or French debt but remember this, a lot of your pensions are linked to the same French and German debt loaned to Greece so if that is written off, who do you think loses out ?

    With a new financial department as I have said above, you/me/we would all have a chance of watching the wonderful turnaround of Greece for the future.
    Yes but would Greece agree to a third part running their finance department? No. Wouldn't it have been better insuring certain measure were in place before giving Greece lots of money? They know we need them and they ain't giving it back!

    Option a) Invade Greece, seize 12 Billion in assets.
    b) Sell the Elgin Marbles to a rich Arab.
    Pinno, מלך אידיוט וחרא מכונאי
  • VTechVTech Posts: 4,736
    Greece voted for no more Austerity, the EU is a democracy isnt it? they dont want a 3rd party, let alone PWC, managing their economy or they d have voted the other way.
    the thing is Vtech, you and your company were party to that corrupt use of public funds with the road closure? from what i ve read, it is the very wealthy who have damaged Greece the most, by getting Greece into the euro and before and after, not paying their taxes.

    When your bankrupt you lose your option to make choices, I worked for a governor but I played no part in closing roads, I simply did a job for a client.

    There is only one fix and I'm surprised I've not heard anyone mention it on any of the news reports.

    Greece needs the finance department run by a third party, similar to when receivers are called in.
    Greece is corrupt, the people can censored and moan as much as they like but so many companies pay little or no tax and they only have their self to blame.
    Portugal is similar in collecting tax.

    Get someone like Price Waterhouse Cooper to run the coffers and see a return to positivity. The weird thing is, Greece earns enough to pay all debt and be profitable, they are simply mismanaged.

    I worked for someone very high up in council in Athens several times, I tuned his collection of Ferrari and he had the police close the roads along the seafront cliffs of Athens whilst we had an ex-F1 test driver do the driving whilst I wrote the code for the engines. This was a costly exercise given the current state of play in Greece yet it shows just how much mismanagement there was and still is within certain areas of Europe.

    Closing Greece down and throwing them to the lions will only hurt you people too, pension funds killed off, lost billions in loads etc. It is easy to look at this as simply a £12b debt for the UK and think it isn't in the same league as the German or French debt but remember this, a lot of your pensions are linked to the same French and German debt loaned to Greece so if that is written off, who do you think loses out ?

    With a new financial department as I have said above, you/me/we would all have a chance of watching the wonderful turnaround of Greece for the future.
    Yes but would Greece agree to a third part running their finance department? No. Wouldn't it have been better insuring certain measure were in place before giving Greece lots of money? They know we need them and they ain't giving it back!

    Option a) Invade Greece, seize 12 Billion in assets.
    b) Sell the Elgin Marbles to a rich Arab.

    We own, as do others, a lot of Greek debt. By letting them run their own country, that debt is climbing, like other countries but without the ability to ever pay it off. When taking the loans they knew the consequences and as such they are aware that a fix is needed, the problem is, the Greek people who have in a large part liked the fact that they have escaped taxation for so long do not want this to change.
    Time has come when they all, as a nation need to pay tax properly and it is my opinion that no one will vote for this to happen as the damage is so bad they will only think of their own positions.
    Living MY dream.
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 15,903
    This really is a Greek Tragedy.
    Greeks backed into a corner by a referendum they intended/expected to lose. Perhaps?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11724924/Europe-is-blowing-itself-apart-over-Greece-and-nobody-can-stop-it.html
  • slowmartslowmart Posts: 4,182
    There is only one fix and I'm surprised I've not heard anyone mention it on any of the news reports.



    Get someone like Price Waterhouse Cooper to run the coffers and see a return to positivity. The weird thing is, Greece earns enough to pay all debt and be profitable, they are simply mismanaged.


    Banks advising a national state how to fudge their liabilities, legally, to enable the criteria to be met to join the Euro.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greece-admits-deficit-figures-were-fudged-to-secure-euro-entry-6157967.html

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/greek-debt-crisis-how-goldman-sachs-helped-greece-to-mask-its-true-debt-a-676634.html


    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/deloitte-given-record-14m-fine-over-mgroverphoenix-affair-8805861.html

    Deloitte given a record fine over their behaviour with MG Rover/ Phoenix affair.

    Independent accountants eh KPMG & Co Op. Great outcome.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/10583847/KPMG-faces-probe-into-Co-op-Bank-accounts.html

    I could go on, the administrators recorded lying and now under investigation by the police re Rangers FC. Oh the same guys were held to account by their own professional body and found not guilty despite the tape recording where the guy stated he had lied.

    A corrupt person is corrupt in whatever role they hold. Conflict of interest is a conflict and white collar crime has too long been seen as victimless and persecuted before a jury of lay people who quite frankly are usually thick as horse s h 1 t.
    “Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring”

    Desmond Tutu
  • orraloonorraloon Posts: 9,927
    ^ Maybe so, is the capitalist way innat.

    However, is Greek situation not a bit like blaming Wonga if one borrows a shed load of cash, has a belter of a time then can't pay it back?

    In all this can't recall any Greek rep saying aye, we did get a bit carried away there. Is always the fault of somebody else, the IMF, the Germans, the ECB... Never that we plus our elected representatives pixxed it up the wall and we let it happen so we need to sort it out.

    Irish seem to be sorting themselves out without the drama.
  • VTechVTech Posts: 4,736
    As with so many people the world over, no one seems to want to agree and as such everyone loses.

    That is why you need a ruler who rules, you simply can't have a room of people arguing over which approach to take and end up with no approach being played, this leads to guaranteed failure. Someone needs to step up to the plate.

    As for Rover MG as mentioned above, does no one else understand that due to the fact that the government wanted the closure of Rover, they would have no real interest in prosecuting people involved as they did what was needed.
    Living MY dream.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 19,103
    As with so many people the world over, no one seems to want to agree and as such everyone loses.

    That is why you need a ruler who rules, you simply can't have a room of people arguing over which approach to take and end up with no approach being played, this leads to guaranteed failure. Someone needs to step up to the plate.
    Succinctly summing up the EU.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • finchyfinchy Posts: 6,686
    As with so many people the world over, no one seems to want to agree and as such everyone loses.

    That is why you need a ruler who rules, you simply can't have a room of people arguing over which approach to take and end up with no approach being played, this leads to guaranteed failure. Someone needs to step up to the plate.

    Are you arguing for dictatorship?
  • VTechVTech Posts: 4,736
    As with so many people the world over, no one seems to want to agree and as such everyone loses.

    That is why you need a ruler who rules, you simply can't have a room of people arguing over which approach to take and end up with no approach being played, this leads to guaranteed failure. Someone needs to step up to the plate.

    Are you arguing for dictatorship?

    The alternative ?
    The facts are that some decisions can NOT be made by the average person, you have to be separate to the problem to give a balanced view. Please understand that the only losers are the greek people and the people of the countries who have bailed them out previously, if there is no fix we find only losers.
    Living MY dream.
  • finchyfinchy Posts: 6,686
    Given recent Greek history, I can't quite see them going for a dictatorship.
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Given recent Greek history, I can't quite see them going for a dictatorship.

    who is to say a dictator would make the right decisions? before democracy everything wasnt all rosy was it?

    Long term the Greeks should quit the euro and go back to the Drachma, it would be super hard for them, but unemployment rates of 65% is hardly a barrel of laughs, Argentina went through a similar hyper inflation period which they have come through.
  • slowmartslowmart Posts: 4,182
    Given recent Greek history, I can't quite see them going for a dictatorship.

    who is to say a dictator would make the right decisions? before democracy everything wasnt all rosy was it?

    Long term the Greeks should quit the euro and go back to the Drachma, it would be super hard for them, but unemployment rates of 65% is hardly a barrel of laughs, Argentina went through a similar hyper inflation period which they have come through.


    Argentina are still excluded from access to the international money markets and have negotiated a five year plan to have this in place by 2019, which is 18 years since their default, and inflation is currently double digits. Further a country rich in natural resources have squandered this good fortune through corruption and ineptitude so it's not a great example to hold up. IMHO!
    “Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring”

    Desmond Tutu
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 60,990 Lives Here
    As per the FP article, Greece's issue is fundamentally just collateral from keeping the European banking system afloat.

    EU would do well to admit this.
  • FocusZingFocusZing Posts: 4,373
    Deleted.
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Given recent Greek history, I can't quite see them going for a dictatorship.

    who is to say a dictator would make the right decisions? before democracy everything wasnt all rosy was it?

    Long term the Greeks should quit the euro and go back to the Drachma, it would be super hard for them, but unemployment rates of 65% is hardly a barrel of laughs, Argentina went through a similar hyper inflation period which they have come through.


    Argentina are still excluded from access to the international money markets and have negotiated a five year plan to have this in place by 2019, which is 18 years since their default, and inflation is currently double digits. Further a country rich in natural resources have squandered this good fortune through corruption and ineptitude so it's not a great example to hold up. IMHO!

    its probably the only example is nt ?
    they are obviously no Germany and inflation is 15% but an unemployment rate of 7% so, they are doing a heck of alot better than they were and far far better than Greece - but yes like many countries in S.America corruption is rife.
    the Greeks have a very difficult decision, further economic collapse or further economic collapse, they will never met the criteria for joining the euro, so should leave but (try) to stay in the EU.
  • VTechVTech Posts: 4,736
    Does anyone here truly believe that the unemployment is even close to that quoted by the greek government ?
    Living MY dream.
  • VTechVTech Posts: 4,736
    Looks like a deal is at least on the cards.
    Greece just needs to sort out the fake "unemployment" now and get things in order.
    Living MY dream.
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 15,903
    Looks like the EU want the non Eurozone states to help fund the bailout of Greece, contrary to what was agreed 5 years ago. Our contribution would be circa 1 billion. This wouldn't help the IN campaign when it comes to any referendum.
    Don't go throwing good money after bad, propping up a flawed institution.
    Yes, Greece needs help. We have a foreign aid budget. Divert that money to Greece if needs be. But Greece's membership of the Euro is finished and shouldn't really have been involved in the first place. We, and I mean Europe, shouldn't be cobbling stuff together, throwing good money after bad, to try to make an impossible situation work.
    EU drove forward monetary union as a step towards political union and it has blown up in their face.
  • bigjimbigjim Posts: 780
    It's all nonsense. The Greek people are not being bailed out. It's the Greek banks that will be bailed so they can repay the EU banks. It's money going around in circles. They can repay the banks so that the banks can loan them money so they can then repay the banks. Total nonsense. If a company did this they would not last five minutes. The last thing the Germans need is the Euro to sterngthen which it will do if this lot and others leave the union. A strong Euro will weaken Germanys booming exports.
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