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Early Friday Thread: direction the bike industry is going

DonDaddyDDonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
edited June 2015 in Commuting chat
Specifically I don't like it, I don't like the direction the road bike industry is going.

What don't I like?

It seems that there are now two options of road bikes: the areo bike which is a time trial bike with drop handlebars.

or

one with disc brakes, which looks like a mountain bike with drop handlebars - which IMO is fugly.

Disc brakes on road bikes. I have ridden in sunny, dark, bright, freezing, baking, windy, still, wet, dry, moist, extremely wet conditions and any and all combinations inbetween. I have never had any trouble braking. If I needed to lock the wheels either my anticipation (which is the first rule of braking) was off or it was the fault of the thing I'm trying not to hit. I haven't, not once, thought 'damn' I need disc brakes. I've had disc brakes on a previous commuting bike, I didn't somehow feel safer, it didn't make my commute any better, they were a pig to maintain but most important, I didn't go faster downhill because I thought to myself "its OK I've got disc brakes" I went as fast as my talent and guts allowed.

I'm going to say it, you don't need disc brakes on road bikes, they don't make you a better cyclist, they don't improve the experience.

Tyre options and pressure.

I'm a big guy, I'm also a purist, road bike tyres are 23mm and 120psi. I'm so obsessive over this it is OCD. What the hell is this nonsense with 25, 26 and 28mm at 80 - 60psi, is this F1 where we are preserving tyres and elevating comfort for the sake of unrepentant speed? WTF!? Tyres are 23mm and 120psi or above. If you feel uncomfortable by a better seat, thicker padded tights/shorts/bibs. Still uncomfortable, carbon seatpost. Still uncomfortable N+1.

You lot have gone soft.
Food Chain number = 4

A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
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Posts

  • asprillaasprilla Posts: 8,440
    You shouldn't be locking the wheels. Disc brakes provide more consistency of breaking across conditions rather than more stopping power. It means that tyre traction becomes the only variable across all conditions. Fatter tyres at lower pressures lead to an improvement there too.

    Comfort is important for speed, as is keeping the rubber on the ground. Thin tyres at higher pressures bounce you all over the place and this fatigues you and makes you slower. Absorbing those bumps also keeps your wheels on the ground ensuring the power you produce is delivered onto the tarmac to drive you forward.

    You're a luddite.
    Mud - Genesis Vapour CCX
    Race - Fuji Norcom Straight
    Sun - Cervelo R3
    Winter / Commute - Dolan ADX
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    I haven't, not once, thought 'damn' I need disc brakes.
    I have, normally on occasions where I had to walk home because I'd blown out a worn rim, and then spend a lot of time and money rebuilding the wheels with new rims. Since I switched to disc brakes this has stopped happening.
    I'm a big guy, I'm also a purist, road bike tyres are 23mm and 120psi. I'm so obsessive over this it is OCD.
    That's fine, you're entitled to your OCD, even if it is founded in dogma rather than science. A lot of slightly less narrow-minded riders have switched to 25mm because there's less rolling resistance and it makes them go faster. This is particularly useful when racing.
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • DonDaddyDDonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    How can a wider tyre at lower PSI offer less rolling resistance?
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    How can a wider tyre at lower PSI offer less rolling resistance?
    Because the tyre conforms to irregularities in the road, rather than wasting energy bouncing you around. For an extreme illustration of this, try riding a cyclocross bike or MTB along bumpy grass with the tyres pumped up to 60psi, and then let them down to 20psi and try again. You'll go a *lot* faster at 20psi.
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • asprillaasprilla Posts: 8,440
    How can a wider tyre at lower PSI offer less rolling resistance?

    At any given pressure a 23mm tyre and a 25mm tyre have the same contact patch. Since the 23mm tyre is narrower it's contact patch is narrower, and consequently longer. This means surface of the 23mm tyre is deflected more than the 25mm tyre and this leads to greater resistance.

    So say Schwalbe.
    Mud - Genesis Vapour CCX
    Race - Fuji Norcom Straight
    Sun - Cervelo R3
    Winter / Commute - Dolan ADX
  • DonDaddyDDonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    Nothing is sacred. Next you'll be raving about that Pinarello with rear suspension that was ridden at the Paris - Roubaix. Urgh!

    Rear suspension, disc brakes, wide tyres. May as well put drop handlebars on a Raleigh Activator and be done with it.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • warrengwarreng Posts: 535
    Given that you ride about as much as my spaniel your opinion is invalid
    2015 Cervelo S3
    2016 Santa Cruz 5010
    2016 Genesis Croix de Fer
  • tangled_metaltangled_metal Posts: 3,996
    A long time ago wheels were solid wooden affairs until someone came along with the rubber, inflated tyre based wheel. It was a revelation. The tyre absorbed the roughness of the road by deflecting rather than the wheel bouncing over the stone or other roughness of the road/trail. This took less energy out of the motion of the vehicle.

    Fast forward to modern times with cycling. A rock hard 120PSI bike tyre is as close to a solid wooden wheel as you can get on a bike. So why is it not reasonable to think the higher pressures are making a performance loss when compared to lower pressure tyres even if they are wider.

    I used to think like you with the tyre pressure. I kept mine at about 110PSI, religiously squeezing the tyre every time I got the bike out. Any movement when I squeezed would result in the track pump coming out and the pressure checked/corrected. That was on 23 tyres too. I was solely working on the same set of rules of setting your bike up as had been used for decades. Narrow tyres at high pressure result in lower rolling resistance which is better.

    Now I have a gravel bike running 38s and TBH it runs like a dream. I am no longer as fast as I used to be. I used to do a run with an average of 21mph now I do 16mph. I know I am slower but that is down to years out of cycling and pretty much any vigorous exercise. I am slowly getting back though. I have gone from an average of 11mph to 16mph in a couple of months and can see myself getting better if I just spend a bit more time doing it. Need a few longer and faster runs (without the family and the trailer on my bike).
  • greg66_tri_v2.0greg66_tri_v2.0 Posts: 7,172
    I'd blown out a worn rim

    Snigger. Well aren't you just the sexual adventurist? Snigger.

    Road bikes and discs. No. I clocked one earlier this week. By which I mean at some lights I was looking around, and suddenly thought "WT titty F is going on there? Yeah, right there, where the seatstays come out of the seat tube! Oh, right, nothing. Not a fricking thing. Because there's no rear brake caliper."

    It looked like a three legged dog. And not at all in a good way.

    ETA who the bloody hell has set the swear filter up to replace f-r-i-c-k-i-n-g with asterisks? I might as well use the right censored swear word in that censored case.
    Swim. Bike. Run. Yeah. That's what I used to do.

    Bike 1
    Bike 2-A
  • menthelmenthel Posts: 2,484
    Personally, after my off I am thinking of replacing my Italia with something disc braked as long drop brakes are a bit shite. The standard drop brakes on my Aprire are so much better than I don't think that I need discs on that.
    RIP commute...
    Sometimes seen bimbling around on a purple Fratello Disc or black and red Aprire Vincenza.
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 22,800 Lives Here
    For an expalanation of why 25 is better than 23mm look at this. Regarding discs and road bike whatever you do don't read about lefty, you might get upset.
    Personally I love my 37mm tyres and discs.
  • meanredspidermeanredspider Posts: 12,550
    The anti-disc movement is akin to the Flat Earth Society or Creationists - you can continue to believe that discs aren't better but all the evidence suggests you're wrong. Not least of all that the UCI are worried about mixing discs with rim brakes in a professional field.
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • DrLexDrLex Posts: 2,142
    Will your head asplode, Scanners-style, with news of the new 'Dale road bike with lefty suspension fork and disks?
    If so, please be Selfie-videoing when you follow the link - K thx bai!
    Location: ciderspace
  • First.AspectFirst.Aspect Posts: 4,323
    I'd blown out a worn rim

    Snigger. Well aren't you just the sexual adventurist? Snigger.

    Road bikes and discs. No. I clocked one earlier this week. By which I mean at some lights I was looking around, and suddenly thought "WT titty F is going on there? Yeah, right there, where the seatstays come out of the seat tube! Oh, right, nothing. Not a ******* thing. Because there's no rear brake caliper."

    It looked like a three legged dog. And not at all in a good way.

    ETA who the bloody hell has set the swear filter up to replace f-r-i-c-k-i-n-g with asterisks? I might as well use the right ******* swear word in that ******* case.
    Discs on a road bike are like kilts. Just plain wrong.

    Unfortunately, they do work really very well.

    Not sure the kilt analogy really has legs.
  • First.AspectFirst.Aspect Posts: 4,323
    The anti-disc movement is akin to the Flat Earth Society or Creationists - you can continue to believe that discs aren't better but all the evidence suggests you're wrong. Not least of all that the UCI are worried about mixing discs with rim brakes in a professional field.
    That's because all the riders using discs will get left behind on the hills.
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 22,800 Lives Here
    Discs on a road bike are like kilts. Just plain wrong.
    Never been bothered about conforming just for the hell of it.
    Unfortunately, they do work really very well.
    That they do, fortunately I'd say.
    Not sure the kilt analogy really has legs.
    Are kilts going off topic?
  • First.AspectFirst.Aspect Posts: 4,323
    Discs on a road bike are like kilts. Just plain wrong.
    Never been bothered about conforming just for the hell of it.
    Unfortunately, they do work really very well.
    That they do, fortunately I'd say.
    Not sure the kilt analogy really has legs.
    Are kilts going off topic?
    I have never seen anyone cycling in a kilt, so I'd have to agree that they are off topic.

    Just so you know, v, I was an early adopter of an everything road ish bike with discs in 2009. I still put rim brakes on my mid life crisis bike though, last year. Discs just don't look good yet, possibly because manufacturers feel the need to overbuild the forks and frame around them.

    They have a place but they will be adopted in the protour mainly because bike sponsors will insist.
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 22,800 Lives Here
    I have never seen anyone cycling in a kilt, so I'd have to agree that they are off topic.
    Bizarrely this is the second thread to mention kilts this week. So maybe they are on topic after all. :oops:
    Regarding discs, functionally they are vastly superior. There is no discussion to be had there although I know many will try to disagree. Aesthetically perhaps not, but a well made lugged steel frame is a lot prettier than an aero carbon frame imo. How many carbon frames are sold compared to lugged steel?
  • timothywtimothyw Posts: 2,482
    Road bikes with disk brakes are just ridiculously practical for the commute (especially if they have good clearance for guards, big tyres, etc) so I can't see you getting much objection in the commuting chat section of the forum.

    I'm a little baffled by the objection to aero road bikes though? I think they look kinda cool. I mean, we are living in space year 2015, we might not have hoverboards but at the very least can we get ridiculously streamlined pushbikes?

    If nothing else, aero/tt bikes are going to keep rim brakes around for a long, long time yet. Unless they start fitting drum/coaster brakes for some kind of marginal gains aero advantage.

    Bottom line though, if you want to ride too-hard 700x23 tyres on your conventional diamond road bike then be my guest, they aren't going away anytime soon.

    PS: yes, that Giant is fugly, although to be fair so are most Giant bikes. Look at this hideous thing I found when shopping for a disk-braked commuter a couple of years back: http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-gb/bikes/model/2014.giant.anyroad.1/14991/66577/
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 50,109 Lives Here
    Main problem with discs at the moment is limited choice and lack of standardisation. I looked into it briefly for my commuter SS, but realised it was way too much of a ballache to sort out.

    I also think they look weird, but then I thought the same of oversized carbon bikes and now they look normal.

    I'm sure it'll be standard eventually. Makes sense.

    Doesn't mean I'm going to rush out and buy one now.
  • byke68byke68 Posts: 1,070
    Both of my bikes have disc brakes, one hydraulic, one cable and I'm not impresed with either. I decided to replace the rear brake set on the Cannondale completly due to the same problem time after time and the front disc on the Genesis is now warped.
    Next bike will have caliper brakes.
    Cannondale Trail 6 - censored brakes!
    Cannondale CAAD8
  • DonDaddyDDonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    Someone must be rewriting history because in all my years I've never seen an outcry for disc brakes on the commute. All those threads asking "what hybrid for the commute?". We didn't all say the Giant Escape M2 or M1, which comes with disc brakes (since 2006ish). No we said road bike. When asked about brakes, we said calipers are 100% fine and they were. Suddenly you're all telling me they are not, bollocks.

    The cycle manufacturers have added something new to road bikes and we have created the need.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • timothywtimothyw Posts: 2,482
    That isn't because road bikes don't benefit from disk brakes though, it's because hybrids are an abomination. (cue abuse from commuter that loves his hybrid/can't ride drop handlebars for some bizarre reason).

    If you are commuting week in week out, why wouldn't you want brakes that are more reliable in the wet, and don't wear out your wheel rims?

    Even if you don't think they're any more effective, preserving your wheel rims in the face of stop start commuting and road grit is surely worth it anyway.
  • dhopedhope Posts: 6,699
    Someone must be rewriting history because in all my years I've never seen an outcry for disc brakes on the commute. All those threads asking "what hybrid for the commute?". We didn't all say the Giant Escape M2 or M1, which comes with disc brakes (since 2006ish). No we said road bike. When asked about brakes, we said calipers are 100% fine and they were. Suddenly you're all telling me they are not, ****.

    The cycle manufacturers have added something new to road bikes and we have created the need.
    Calipers are 100% fine. As are 19mm tyres and chromoly.
    Discs are still better for stopping. 25mm tyres are still better for going.
    Why did you just buy a carbon bike?
    Rose Xeon CW Disc
    CAAD12 Disc
    Condor Tempo
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 22,800 Lives Here
    The cycle manufacturers have added something new to road bikes and the enlightened have discovered how much better they are.
    FTFY :wink:
  • Kieran_BurnsKieran_Burns Posts: 10,052
    I've lost count of the number of times someone has bemoaned the lack of braking power on bad weather commutes. The discs on my CX commuter have been a godsend time and time again. I'm back on the road bike at the moment and while I love the better groupset (105 vs Ultegra / Dura Ace) the braking is simply not as 'good' - and this is in the dry.

    When it rains, I simply do not worry about the brakes any more as they just work and as to fettling them... I've sorted that out and posted on how to get Avid brakes dialled in very easily.

    I know things have moved on since you last rode DDD but you can't stop the march of technology.
    Chunky Cyclists need your love too! :-)
    2009 Specialized Tricross Sport
    2011 Trek Madone 4.5
    2012 Felt F65X
    Proud CX Pervert and quiet roadie. 12 mile commuter
  • roger_merrimanroger_merriman Posts: 6,147
    Someone must be rewriting history because in all my years I've never seen an outcry for disc brakes on the commute. All those threads asking "what hybrid for the commute?". We didn't all say the Giant Escape M2 or M1, which comes with disc brakes (since 2006ish). No we said road bike. When asked about brakes, we said calipers are 100% fine and they were. Suddenly you're all telling me they are not, ****.

    The cycle manufacturers have added something new to road bikes and we have created the need.

    because people have started using bikes with disc brakes, and have had lightbulb moments.

    It's very easy to be used to something. doesn't mean it's the right choice.

    for your Sunday best road bike, on a summer day you'll probably not notice.

    day in day out on the commute, you'll notice.
  • rubertoerubertoe Posts: 3,994
    Can i chip in with Direct Mount Calipers....

    They are superb having been forced to use them on my commute for the last few weeks while the K2 goes in for an overhaul.

    On the Aero argument.

    Cervelo R5or Cerverlo S5

    I know which one am going for.
    "If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got."

    PX Kaffenback 2 = Work Horse
    B-Twin Alur 700 = Sundays and Hills
  • First.AspectFirst.Aspect Posts: 4,323
    So consensus is that discs are great when the conditions aren't. They are great the rest of the time as well, but really not necessary. For racing there will be downsides for some time to come because of weight, aero and ease of wheel changes.

    Perhaps we will see them in the spring classics but not the grand tours, for the first few years?
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