CX Wheels

pmannion9

Been cutting my teeth in cross for last few years.
Have always used clinchers - just because I had them already.

Would I notice much improvement with Tubs given that I weight in at sub 58kg already and can manage to run pretty lower pressure with the clinchers.
Is it a case of minimum gains for the cost of a new wheelset?
Also will the tubs only have really advantage if it very muddy? Ideally I don't want to have two sets of tubs.

If I do buy some what would people recommend around the £350 mark or it is just not worth bothering !!!

Cheers.

Monty Dog

I weigh the same - you can run tubs are very low pressures ~24psi in comparison to clinchers and find grip where a clincher would have given-up. As you're planning to only run a single pair of wheels, tubular choice will be dependant on your local riding conditions. With tubs you're less-likely to suffer from pinch flaps (or burps if running tubeless). Wheel-wise, you don't need anything too fancy - Velocity Major Tom rims on Novatec hubs with double-butted spokes would be within your budget, robust and reliable.

ugo.santalucia

Tubulars are an expensive habit... unless you are on the very competitive side of things, I wouldn't bother.

VamP

I have tried the Carbotech cheapies from Merlin @ £80 a pop. Perfectly serviceable set, if a bit heavy, but that doesn't really matter in cross. If you only want one set then mud tyres (Challenge Limus or similar) are the way to go.

Chinese carbon is also within your budget, and as Monty says, Major Toms on Novatec are good.

Ugo is completely wrong about tubulars, they are a major competitive edge in cross, far more than any other thing you can do equipment wise (short of spare bike and pit crew). Not only can you go way lower on pressures (not 24 psi but as low as 16psi), but the sidewalls are much suppler than on clinchers, a crucial factor when exploring the limits of adhesion. They are faster than clinchers in all conditions, but much much faster on muddy days.

tgotb

VamP wrote:

Ugo is completely wrong about tubulars, they are a major competitive edge in cross, far more than any other thing you can do equipment wise (short of spare bike and pit crew). Not only can you go way lower on pressures (not 24 psi but as low as 16psi), but the sidewalls are much suppler than on clinchers, a crucial factor when exploring the limits of adhesion. They are faster than clinchers in all conditions, but much much faster on muddy days.

+1 - significantly lower rolling resistance (on account of the supple sidewalls) and so much more grip in the mud that it almost feels like cheating. If you've already raced a few seasons you'll definitely be able to tell the difference.

VamP's slightly wrong about pressures though; I was running 14psi at one race last year (at 85kg) and I certainly wasn't the lowest. I very rarely go much above 20psi.

VamP

TGOTB wrote:

VamP wrote:

Ugo is completely wrong about tubulars, they are a major competitive edge in cross, far more than any other thing you can do equipment wise (short of spare bike and pit crew). Not only can you go way lower on pressures (not 24 psi but as low as 16psi), but the sidewalls are much suppler than on clinchers, a crucial factor when exploring the limits of adhesion. They are faster than clinchers in all conditions, but much much faster on muddy days.

+1 - significantly lower rolling resistance (on account of the supple sidewalls) and so much more grip in the mud that it almost feels like cheating. If you've already raced a few seasons you'll definitely be able to tell the difference.

VamP's slightly wrong about pressures though; I was running 14psi at one race last year (at 85kg) and I certainly wasn't the lowest. I very rarely go much above 20psi.

14psi Pffft!

pmannion9

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the recommendations. Just started adding a few new bits and pieces to the CX bike so will see what is left over in the budget to explore your suggested options...

I always assumed I would gain a lot from added grip so seems to be that holds true.

What the hell is it like hitting tree roots etc with 14 psi in the tyre !!!
I'd have no teeth left !!!

tgotb

pmannion9 wrote:

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the recommendations. Just started adding a few new bits and pieces to the CX bike so will see what is left over in the budget to explore your suggested options...

I always assumed I would gain a lot from added grip so seems to be that holds true.

What the hell is it like hitting tree roots etc with 14 psi in the tyre !!!
I'd have no teeth left !!!

You need to recce the course before riding with it *that* low. The conventional wisdom is that if you're bottoming out on the rim about once a lap, you've probably got it about right; if there are lots of roots or hard edges (Shrewsbury) you have to go a bit higher. It ends up being a compromise between having more grip to go faster, and having to baby the bike over/around the odd lump. If I don't know the course, I normally start at around 20psi and adjust over the course of however many warm-up laps I have time for. I find the whole exercise of figuring out the best way to ride the course, what lines, what tyre pressures etc, almost as enjoyable as the race itself.
The race I rode at 14psi was on the World Cup course at Milton Keynes; that had no hard lumps at all, and a number of corners where there was almost zero grip. I was also emboldened by hearing an interview with one of the pros, who'd ridden it at 13psi the day before.

ugo.santalucia

VamP wrote:

Ugo is completely wrong about tubulars, they are a major competitive edge in cross, far more than any other thing you can do equipment wise (short of spare bike and pit crew). Not only can you go way lower on pressures (not 24 psi but as low as 16psi), but the sidewalls are much suppler than on clinchers, a crucial factor when exploring the limits of adhesion. They are faster than clinchers in all conditions, but much much faster on muddy days.

But that's what I said...

point is a pair of Dugast or equally good tubs set you back what? 120-150 pounds these days? And you can easily wreck them on a stone... I don't know the OP's allocated budget for tyres, but they are indeed an expensive habit.
You are on the competitive side of cyclocross, given that's pretty much all you talk about, so for you it makes perfect sense to invest 120-150 quid in a set of tyres that might last a season or a lap... for many it's just a way to get some training in winter and a bit of fun... in which case it's not worth it

VamP

ugo.santalucia wrote:

VamP wrote:

Ugo is completely wrong about tubulars, they are a major competitive edge in cross, far more than any other thing you can do equipment wise (short of spare bike and pit crew). Not only can you go way lower on pressures (not 24 psi but as low as 16psi), but the sidewalls are much suppler than on clinchers, a crucial factor when exploring the limits of adhesion. They are faster than clinchers in all conditions, but much much faster on muddy days.

But that's what I said...

point is a pair of Dugast or equally good tubs set you back what? 120-150 pounds these days? And you can easily wreck them on a stone... I don't know the OP's allocated budget for tyres, but they are indeed an expensive habit.
You are on the competitive side of cyclocross, given that's pretty much all you talk about, so for you it makes perfect sense to invest 120-150 quid in a set of tyres that might last a season or a lap... for many it's just a way to get some training in winter and a bit of fun... in which case it's not worth it

I should have been more specific, I meant that there were competitive gains to be had regardless of ability. I know a few middle order riders, who use tubs and always move up a dozen places on muddy days.

You are right about the cost, but equally people spend a lot of money on performance upgrades (whether cross or road) that do not come close to the performance advantages that tubulars offer in cross.

But as I said, a pair of cheap tubular wheels (£80) plus pair of Limus (£90) and you have maybe 98% of the performance gains of Rhinos on Zipps, which cost a lot more and I still see a lot of regular weekend warriors using such setups. And with the synthetic casing Limus and agricultural grade cup and cone hubs you're virtually guaranteed better durability too.

A good halfway house are TUFO tubs which are very easily repairable (sealant) and can generally be expected to last 3+ seasons. Maybe 95% of performance gains of the gold standard Rhinos.

PS: I do talk about other things occasionally

ugo.santalucia

VamP wrote:

A good halfway house are TUFO tubs which are very easily repairable (sealant) and can generally be expected to last 3+ seasons. Maybe 95% of performance gains of the gold standard Rhinos.

PS: I do talk about other things occasionally

Some would say it is exactly the opposite. Tufo cannot be repaired and therefore the only way to fix one is to use sealant, which will not work for tears in the sidewall. A clincher can be repaired at virtually no cost with a patch or some gaffer tape.

I don't have CX tubs experience, but I have used road tubs extensively and recently given up. There is a mix of reasons for that, which I think also apply to cyclocross to some extent:
They are expensive and often hard to source when needed. If you can wait fine, but if you can't, then clinchers are a safer bet. They are expensive to repair (around 20 pounds each for a very basic puncture fix), unless you do it yourself, but I never managed to do a good job with the stitching. The choice on the market of what is really available and in stock is limited to a handful of models and that includes some which are out of budget... PROs seem to get hold of stuff that is never available in the real world.

Monty Dog

I would say that CX is the one discipline where tubs still provide a clear advantage and where it can provide the difference between riding and running. A Tufo tub will almost certainly be better than any clincher.

VamP

Tufo's are nigh on indestructible. Yes a big sidewall slash would kill them, but that's true of most tyres. I have repaired cuts up to 5mm in size with sealant. I have a friend who uses Tufos as his regular 3 Peaks tyres and hasn't had a failure yet. I have just binned a pair that I have done over 3k miles on, just worn out. They are a bit agricultural compared to the handmade boutique tubs, but for durability they are unbeatable.