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Pro Cycling needs an overhaul says Sir Dave !

NervexProfNervexProf Posts: 4,202
edited May 2015 in Pro race
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/32802192

Your views?

I am with him on radio comms with DS's.
Common sense in an uncommon degree is what the world calls wisdom
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Posts

  • The_BoyThe_Boy Posts: 3,099
    Why do people keep saying cycling should be more like F1? It's a sport that risks falling apart at the seams.

    edit: That has nothing to do with the actual comments in the article - will read after my exam which is up shortly. Just my reaction to the headline.
    Team My Man 2018: David gaudu, Pierre Latour, Romain Bardet, Thibaut pinot, Alexandre Geniez, Florian Senechal, Warren Barguil, Benoit Cosnefroy
  • MacaloonMacaloon Posts: 5,545
    The_Boy wrote:
    Why do people keep saying cycling should be more like F1?

    Beats me.
    stage11_circuit_imola.jpg
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • above_the_cowsabove_the_cows Posts: 11,318
    Macaloon wrote:
    The_Boy wrote:
    Why do people keep saying cycling should be more like F1?

    Beats me.
    stage11_circuit_imola.jpg

    Well played.
    Correlation is not causation.
  • joelsimjoelsim Posts: 7,552
    My own view is that it’s easy to kill beauty and meaning by trying to make it TV-friendly. Long periods of no great excitement are not necessarily boring. And, importantly, when they are boring, that can be a good thing. We positively need boredom and inactivity in our lives. It is the white space that contrasts and activates the moments of strong emotion. When an attack happens on the last climb in a cycle race, it is only understood and experienced properly by someone that has spent three hours anticipating it and mulling over the possibilities. You cannot just tune in and expect to be entertained.

    That said, it’s a commercial imperative to move with the times. Cameras and GPS transceivers on the bikes might work, and broadcasting team radio would be interesting for the reasons Brailsford mentions. But keep the long stages.

    This is not the time nor the place for logical reasoning :mrgreen:
  • me-109me-109 Posts: 1,523
    Is this so the audience (or Dave) can hear "Tinkov's* paying us twenty thousand Euros not to chase"-type orders? Perhaps we just shorten the stages to the 'important' bit - the finish - and just have a massed start 200m sprint and save everyone the time and effort? It would make the logistics a lot simpler, it would be easy to film and would get just about as much airtime as a full stage/one-dayer (in the UK at least). In order to get there, we could start be reducing the open stages and having smaller, pay-entry loops and circuit races. For those we can have a title sponsor that gets his name all over the jersey and do away with those pesky team sponsor logos .....

    I couldn't give a hoot about radios and would rather do away with them; let the road captains and the individual riders figure it out.

    *Example for illustration only. Other team bosses/DSs are available ;-)
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 7,790
    It's important to protect the integrity of the sport over making it TV friendly - there are many apparently TV friendly types of cycling such as crits or track cycling that I wouldn't cross the room to pick up the controller to watch because they just lack the grandeur, history, light and shade or whatever it is that makes the big road races the pinnacle of the sport. I would rather they scrap radios than let me listen in - I don't want the sport to be about the machinations in the team cars but rather the riders on the road, on board cameras and GPS - I don't see that it adds very much at all.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • mm1mm1 Posts: 1,063
    100% agree with the plea for boredom, there's nothing like watching a race develop over several hours. Similar to the contrast between test cricket and a game that's played in pygamas. The Velon images, split screen and more data all add to our enjoyment, but I doubt they will bring a single new punter to the sport. I've loved the slow-mo HD images from the Giro, but what's made the race has been the racing, over a demanding and intersting percorso. The Tour seems increasingly to avoid difficult and narrow roads (with the exception of set-peice days on the cobbles etc.) and is far duller as a result, too big for Ventoux says it all really.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 16,151
    Another vote against short stages. It's an endurance event not a sprint. There is a circular wooden track for those that like sprints.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,753
    Cycling is fine and it does not need an overhaul... the radio thing is just ridiculous...

    I really really don't like Brailsford... I really don't like anything about him... the things he says, his view of cycling, the way he looks (like the average white van man/London cabbie who is on a mission to run you over).

    I hope he goes back to doing track things...

    Just saying... :wink:
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,879
    He's absolutely right. TV coverage is tired and the whole sport is clinging too hard to nostalgia. It's still a sport designed for selling newspapers.

    Someone mentioned cricket above. That was a similar sport with it's staid traditionalists grumbling about Twenty20. But it was sport that was dying both financially and in popular support. Only England and Australia cared about test cricket any more. Twenty20 saved it. And it was also helped by inovative TV production which helped to involve the viewer.

    Any organisation which clings to its history and resists inovation is doomed to fail.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 16,151
    RichN95 wrote:
    He's absolutely right. TV coverage is tired and the whole sport is clinging too hard to nostalgia. It's still a sport designed for selling newspapers.

    Someone mentioned cricket above. That was a similar sport with it's staid traditionalists grumbling about Twenty20. But it was sport that was dying both financially and in popular support. Only England and Australia cared about test cricket any more. Twenty20 saved it. And it was also helped by inovative TV production which helped to involve the viewer.

    Any organisation which clings to its history and resists inovation is doomed to fail.

    The problem is that Twenty20 didn't save test cricket it further endangered it. Perhaps there is a market for short road races, but personally I don't really see it. I would rather watch the last two hours of a six hour road race than two hours of a two hour race, but each to their own.

    Innovation for innovation sake is far more likely to cause failure.
  • thomthomthomthom Posts: 3,574
    RichN95 wrote:
    Someone mentioned cricket above. That was a similar sport with it's staid traditionalists grumbling about Twenty20. But it was sport that was dying both financially and in popular support. Only England and Australia cared about test cricket any more. Twenty20 saved it.

    ... and now, still, only.. England and Australia care about cricket..
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,753
    ThomThom wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Someone mentioned cricket above. That was a similar sport with it's staid traditionalists grumbling about Twenty20. But it was sport that was dying both financially and in popular support. Only England and Australia cared about test cricket any more. Twenty20 saved it.

    ... and now, still, only.. England and Australia care about cricket..

    Plus India and Pakistan... but yeah, pretty much
  • joelsimjoelsim Posts: 7,552
    Before anything else, cycling needs to get a grip on it's doping demise. After what is generally seen as a few cleaner years, I believe that it is now going back down into the mire. Kristoff who looks like Eric Pickles from the side can climb 20+ bergs, Zakarin has turned from Katusha reject to superstar, Alaphilippe has come from nowhere to nearly competing with Valverdemort and winning mountain stages, Astana are like 9 Oxes at Il Giro, I could go on.

    Without sponsors there is no cycling and that is the way it is heading.
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 7,790
    Well I look forwards to cycling becoming a series of evening criteriums and track cycling events which is what the fans are obviously crying out for.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 24,064
    I think more could be done with in-peloton cameras and radio communications between Cars and riders. I'm not sure 20-20 is the best example for cricket, I think what Kerry Packer did to create the 50-50 game is more what Cycling needs
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,753
    I think people who don't like to watch races, should watch something else, simple as that... it's not for everybody and it doesn't need to be.
    I don't watch golf, yet golf seems to do OK without me

    The epic proportion of some races is the only interesting thing about cycling... if races were full action 60 miles long, then folks would not aspire to ride the Etape du Tour or the many amateur events which are linked to epic races, because they would be no harder than your sunday ride. Brailsford is relatively new to road cycling... he doesn't understand road cycling... he has won a few races, but his connection with that world is pretty feeble
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 24,064
    Brailsford is relatively new to road cycling... he doesn't understand road cycling... he has won a few races, but his connection with that world is pretty feeble

    With respect Ugo it's exactly that attitude that has to die. it is nothing more than snobbery. I suggested the Packer/Cricket combination becasue he did exactly that. Remove the snobbish old-empire (wacky stick! wacky stick!) attitude that pervaded cricket and make it a sport that everyone could enjoy watching. Given that cycling takes place is beautiful places, is very gruelling and is, basically, not too hard to understand it has the potential to be much more popular than it is.

    edit - I agree about shortening the races though - but even then it's the first 30 mins that we need to see, not the 2 hours before an inevitable sprint finish
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,753
    ddraver wrote:
    With respect Ugo it's exactly that attitude that has to die. it is nothing more than snobbery. I suggested the Packer/Cricket combination becasue he did exactly that. Remove the snobbish old-empire (wacky stick! wacky stick!) attitude that pervaded cricket and make it a sport that everyone could enjoy watching. Given that cycling takes place is beautiful places, is very gruelling and is, basically, not too hard to understand it has the potential to be much more popular than it is.

    edit - I agree about shortening the races though - but even then it's the first 30 mins that we need to see, not the 2 hours before an inevitable sprint finish

    The TdF is the biggest sporting event which is run on a yearly basis, in terms of revenue... is that not successful enough for you? Do we need Brailsford great ideas to make it bigger?
    Shorten the races or even the stages and there won't be much selection and even fewer breakaways. A 120 Km Paris-Roubaix with 28 Km of pave' could easily be won by Kittel or Cavendish, who have nothing to do with that race. Personally I think PRo cycling is already too easy... technology and training have moved on and races have become easier... if they can average close to 40 Kmh on a mountain stage it means it's too easy... too many riders are still in the first group on the last ascent... sometimes as many as 50... means it's way too easy. In the good days maybe you had 5-10.

    Flat stages are boring? Indeed they are, you need the terrain and/or the weather, otherwise it is bound to be boring... however they are already reducing them... in the 90s the Tour de France was a long flat course in between Alps and Pyrenees, now it's no more.
  • above_the_cowsabove_the_cows Posts: 11,318
    Brailsford is relatively new to road cycling... he doesn't understand road cycling... he has won a few races, but his connection with that world is pretty feeble

    With respect that's b*llocks. The man rode as an amateur in France for four years in his late teens/early twenties. He started on the road as a sportsman and only then moved to track cycling in management capacity because he realised that is where he had a better chance of kick-starting a concerted British cycling effort.
    Correlation is not causation.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 24,064
    ddraver wrote:
    With respect Ugo it's exactly that attitude that has to die. it is nothing more than snobbery. I suggested the Packer/Cricket combination becasue he did exactly that. Remove the snobbish old-empire (wacky stick! wacky stick!) attitude that pervaded cricket and make it a sport that everyone could enjoy watching. Given that cycling takes place is beautiful places, is very gruelling and is, basically, not too hard to understand it has the potential to be much more popular than it is.

    edit - I agree about shortening the races though - but even then it's the first 30 mins that we need to see, not the 2 hours before an inevitable sprint finish

    The TdF is the biggest sporting event which is run on a yearly basis, in terms of revenue... is that not successful enough for you? Do we need Brailsford great ideas to make it bigger?
    Shorten the races or even the stages and there won't be much selection and even fewer breakaways. A 120 Km Paris-Roubaix with 28 Km of pave' could easily be won by Kittel or Cavendish, who have nothing to do with that race. Personally I think PRo cycling is already too easy... technology and training have moved on and races have become easier... if they can average close to 40 Kmh on a mountain stage it means it's too easy... too many riders are still in the first group on the last ascent... sometimes as many as 50... means it's way too easy. In the good days maybe you had 5-10.

    Flat stages are boring? Indeed they are, you need the terrain and/or the weather, otherwise it is bound to be boring... however they are already reducing them... in the 90s the Tour de France was a long flat course in between Alps and Pyrenees, now it's no more.

    The TdF might be big, but that is skewed by a lot of other cultural factors. The rest if cycling remains a minnow sport

    I've already said I agree with you about the stage lengths, what needs to change the iis TV coverage of that stage, not the stage itself
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,753
    The Champions league is big business and the other turnaments UEFA organises are very minor, one has even disappeared as it was no longer viable...

    It's the modern world... one ring to rule them all

    Same for cycling... to an extent, becuase there are massive races outside the TdF... if the Chinese don't watch them is none of our business, is it?
  • MacaloonMacaloon Posts: 5,545
    edited May 2015
    Brailsford is relatively new to road cycling... he doesn't understand road cycling... he has won a few races, but his connection with that world is pretty feeble

    With respect that's b*llocks. The man rode as an amateur in France for four years in his late teens/early twenties. He started on the road as a sportsman and only then moved to track cycling in management capacity because he realised that is where he had a better chance of kick-starting a concerted British cycling effort.

    Like his great role model, John Major, who also ran away from a circus to become an accountant, Dave has had his fair share of feuding in his teams about events in Europe.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,879
    The TdF is the biggest sporting event which is run on a yearly basis, in terms of revenue... is that not successful enough for you?
    It really isn't not even close. The Superbowl, Champions League final and the F1 season absolutely crush it for a start.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,753
    RichN95 wrote:
    The TdF is the biggest sporting event which is run on a yearly basis, in terms of revenue... is that not successful enough for you?
    It really isn't not even close. The Superbowl, Champions League final and the F1 season absolutely crush it for a start.

    They don't... the combined 3 weeks are worth more than the Superbowl... of course if you compare one stage only, then yes, of course... most one day mega events will surpass it
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,753
    With respect that's b*llocks. The man rode as an amateur in France for four years in his late teens/early twenties. He started on the road as a sportsman and only then moved to track cycling in management capacity because he realised that is where he had a better chance of kick-starting a concerted British cycling effort.

    ... and that of course in the biased eyes of the average Brit trumps the blooded yellow Jersey of Bjarne Riis and his many years as a (doped) PRO.
    I think he wants to bring some innovation... but innovation for the sake of it is not necessarily a recipe for success. I for one wouldn't bother to follow a Tour with stages that last 2-3 hours... maybe it would appeal to the Twitter generation... so they can turn back to their Ipad and stamp some "like" here and there
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,879
    RichN95 wrote:
    The TdF is the biggest sporting event which is run on a yearly basis, in terms of revenue... is that not successful enough for you?
    It really isn't not even close. The Superbowl, Champions League final and the F1 season absolutely crush it for a start.

    They don't... the combined 3 weeks are worth more than the Superbowl... of course if you compare one stage only, then yes, of course... most one day mega events will surpass it
    The ASO's revenue in 2012 was 166m euros for all its events (not just cycling). The 2014 Superbowl weekend brought in $500m

    Source 1: http://inrng.com/2014/01/problem-revenue-sharing/
    Source 2: http://www.thestreet.com/story/13135106 ... venue.html
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,753
    RichN95 wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    The TdF is the biggest sporting event which is run on a yearly basis, in terms of revenue... is that not successful enough for you?
    It really isn't not even close. The Superbowl, Champions League final and the F1 season absolutely crush it for a start.

    They don't... the combined 3 weeks are worth more than the Superbowl... of course if you compare one stage only, then yes, of course... most one day mega events will surpass it
    The ASO's revenue in 2012 was 166m euros for all its events (not just cycling). The 2014 Superbowl weekend brought in $500m

    Source 1: http://inrng.com/2014/01/problem-revenue-sharing/
    Source 2: http://www.thestreet.com/story/13135106 ... venue.html

    Far enough... then I think my source was referring to TV viewers rather than revenue. Is 166 m Euros not enough to secure the future of cycling?
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 24,064
    Ugo - if you let go of the short stages thing, which seems to be occupying your mind, what do you think of the rest of the ideas?

    If Bjarne had said them, would you think differently?
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,753
    ddraver wrote:
    Ugo - if you let go of the short stages thing, which seems to be occupying your mind, what do you think of the rest of the ideas?

    If Bjarne had said them, would you think differently?

    The radio thing? I am for abolishing them altogether... have radios on TV made Formula 1 more exciting? I don't think so... formula 1 was exciting when Ayrton Senna was on the grid... then Schmacher came and it became boring... modern robot like pilots and managed cars are not very exciting, maybe with the exclusion of Monaco. In one season of Formula one you probably see 3-4 overtakes worth bothering... in the days it was 3-4 of them per race
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