Is 10sp road cable pull different to 9sp/8sp?

Manc33

Most people will say the cable pull is the same for 8/9/10 speed road (and those are all compatible with 8/9 speed MTB) but then 10 speed MTB is different. Pffffffffff, not quite!

I have tried two 10 speed road mechs and neither can be properly setup on 8 speed shifters with an 8 speed cassette and 8 speed chain / 9 speed chain.

What happens is you tighten the derailleur cable to give nice quick shifts up, but then it won't shift down properly, or if it does it shifts down and skips. Swapping the 8 speed chain for a 9 speed made no difference.

I added some washers around the jockey wheels, this improved it slightly, but it still isn't right.

When you set it up as well as you can, it won't change down quickly (although does eventually with enough pedal turns) and the problem is always the #2 sprocket where it starts skipping and wanting to shift down to the #3 sprocket. So I wind the cable tighter, but this makes it not able to shift down to the next smaller sprocket.

I can literally see the jockey wheel is aligned perfectly on the smallest sprockets but up towards the lower sprockets, it is not aligned. It definitely has a different cable pull to 8/9 speed road. If you want a nice new(er) mech (aka a 10 speed one) and are on 8 or 9 speed, don't fall for it!

keezx

Manc33 wrote:

Most people will say the cable pull is the same for 8/9/10 speed road . Pffffffffff, not quite!

Of course it is't.
The "pitch" of the system (cog-cog distance) is determined by geometry and cable pull.
Geometry of 8/9/10 speed derailleurs is the same, so the cable pull is specific for 8/9/10 speed.

keef66

"Most people will say the cable pull is the same for 8/9/10 speed road"

No they won't because it clearly isn't.

They might say if you stick to Shimano road components you can use a '10 speed' rear mech with 8 speed shifters / chain / cassette.

Is that what you're trying to do?

TBH the symptoms you describe suggest a problem with cables rather than the other components

dgunthor

hard to understand your post - you're trying to use a 10 speed road mech with 8 speed road shifters?
if so, that should work fine.

if you are having issues, i'd check your derailleur hanger alignment

Garry H

Sounds like a frayed cable, or damaged shifter.

sungod

i'd go for dirty/worn/damaged cable/outer

chris_bass

sungod wrote:

i'd go for dirty/worn/damaged cable/outer

I'd go for user error/insanity!

homers_double

Chris Bass wrote:

sungod wrote:

i'd go for dirty/worn/damaged cable/outer

I'd go for user error/insanity!

I'd have gone for stupidity but as I'm going on holiday next week anyway I thought I'd save the mods the effort and keep quiet.

Manc33

Guys there's every chance the cable pull is the same but back on a 9-speed rear mech its butter smooth.

I sprayed the cable housing insides with an evaporating degreaser then sprayed tri-flow down, SP-41 housing, cables are all clean and newish. All the housing goes in straight etc.

Running a 9-speed chain is useful, getting the whole cassette on the middle chainring is better than with an 8-speed and it shifts quite well on my 8-speed cassette.

Guys you might wanna kill me for this but I am using a missing link. :oops: Well I keep tinkering and splitting a chain 10+ times is a PITA (and also stupid). Every time I split my (KMC 8X) chain a little ring of metal has to come off :roll: While the chain works fine, its just never held together the same again when pushing the pin back in, although it only goes looser to the level of any pin you took out and put back in any other chain, but I don't trust how easy it becomes after its been taken out and put back, urgh. In that situation a missing link is, wait is more convenient. :P

sungod

Manc33, or so he claims wrote:

...a missing link is, wait is more convenient. :P

who are you and what have you done with manc33?

keezx

Manc33 wrote:

Guys you might wanna kill me for this but I am using a missing link. :oops: Well I keep tinkering and splitting a chain 10+ times is a PITA (and also stupid). Every time I split my (KMC 8X) chain a little ring of metal has to come off :roll: While the chain works fine, its just never held together the same again when pushing the pin back in, although it only goes looser to the level of any pin you took out and put back in any other chain, but I don't trust how easy it becomes after its been taken out and put back, urgh. In that situation a missing link is, wait is more convenient. :P

Where do you live? I wanna kill you....

keef66

I know I may grow to regret this but...

OK, so what shifters and what 10 speed rear mechs have you had the problem with?

6wheels

Keezx wrote:

Manc33 wrote:

Guys you might wanna kill me for this but I am using a missing link. :oops: Well I keep tinkering and splitting a chain 10+ times is a PITA (and also stupid). Every time I split my (KMC 8X) chain a little ring of metal has to come off :roll: While the chain works fine, its just never held together the same again when pushing the pin back in, although it only goes looser to the level of any pin you took out and put back in any other chain, but I don't trust how easy it becomes after its been taken out and put back, urgh. In that situation a missing link is, wait is more convenient. :P

Where do you live? I wanna kill you....

Made me LOL!

veronese68

Manc33 wrote:

Guys there's every chance the cable pull is the same but back on a 9-speed rear mech its butter smooth.

So why aren't you using the 9 speed mech? Actually, don't answer that I really don't want to know, just use the 9 speed mech that's butter smooth and don't mess with it.

Manc33

I did have a kink in the cable. :x

With it being a new cable I didn't think about it. Well I haven't got another cable so I just tried to straighten it out, although the 9 speed mech did work better than the 10 speed, the 10 speed has a stronger spring.

It gets shifted up all the sprockets to #2 and skips there on #2 (not quite shifted up enough). If I push the shifter very slightly (or pull the mech cable slightly) the mech can be moved up but it stays there, then its not skipping. Now that can't be anything but the cable, can it? I know it shouldn't be able to be moved up like that without coming back down again.

So maybe with one mech having a stronger spring it makes it worse, but I was trying both with a kink in the cable and one worked better than the other. This also explains why it wouldn't shift down all that well.

Guys, how often do you change cables because I probably haven't even done 200 miles on it.

chris_bass

It is unlikely to kink by itself, so it is probably from some tinkering you did and did it by accident. I wouldn't bother trying to straighten it, it'll be weaker and you can get new ones very cheaply.

I generally change mine when shifting isn't smooth or it snaps, whichever happens sooner. they usually last quite a while though, depends on the conditions you ride in and how well you maintain and clean your bike.

On the 10 speed/9 speed thing, if the 9 speed worked really well, why did you change it? I can't see any reason for it?

Manc33

CRC has Shimano gear cables at £2.99 each but there's only two reviews and both said they snapped at the derailleur. :!:

Then there's Clark's cables at CRC at £1.79 each, but those are "universal" and I don't want to cut it (I like leaving the soldered end on and wrap it in a little circle so the cable could be taken out and put back without fraying if needed).

Then on eBay there's "genuine" Jagwire cables, never tried them but at 99p delivered per cable its a no brainer. From CRC it would be £1.79 for the cable + £1.99 postage. It ends up being 380% more expensive than eBay, for one cable anyway.

They're just going to snap I know they are.

I'm still not convinced about the cable pull and it only being the kink in the cable but maybe.

If that's true I am putting the 10 speed mech back on. :oops:

chris_bass

Manc33 wrote:

I don't want to cut it (I like leaving the soldered end on and wrap it in a little circle so the cable could be taken out and put back without fraying if needed).

dear god!! even on the front mech?

why not just put an end cap on?

Manc33 wrote:

If that's true I am putting the 10 speed mech back on.

WHY?????

Manc33

Chris Bass wrote:

dear god!! even on the front mech?

No only the rear. It can be wrapped to not much bigger than a 10p while keeping the cable straight when unwound. The trick is to have the end end up in a safe place at the end.

Chris Bass wrote:

why not just put an end cap on?

I did buy a tub of 100 for this reason, but I tinker endlessly and I'm not spending £2 every time I put a cable in/out. While fettling its going to be a cable per day or something. Thats even higher rates than an arcade game. :shock:

Chris Bass wrote:

Manc33 wrote:

If that's true I am putting the 10 speed mech back on.

WHY?????

I dunno, because its newer and might be alright on a new cable. :P

keezx

Manc33 wrote:

I did buy a tub of 100 for this reason, but I tinker endlessly and I'm not spending £2 every time I put a cable in/out. While fettling its going to be a cable per day or something. Thats even higher rates than an arcade game. :shock:

Thank the Lord you're still the same.....

keef66

Keezx wrote:

Manc33 wrote:

I did buy a tub of 100 for this reason, but I tinker endlessly and I'm not spending £2 every time I put a cable in/out. While fettling its going to be a cable per day or something. Thats even higher rates than an arcade game. :shock:

Thank the Lord you're still the same.....

So you're suggesting you spent £200 on a tub of end caps....?? This sounds odd when you have a history of trying to save money buying suspiciously cheap Chinese carbon that occasionally breaks.

Who are you and what have you done with Manc33 ?

chris_bass

Manc33 wrote:

I did buy a tub of 100 for this reason, but I tinker endlessly and I'm not spending £2 every time I put a cable in/out. While fettling its going to be a cable per day or something. Thats even higher rates than an arcade game. :shock:

but why are you taking the cable off all the time? don't you just take it off the rear mech and thendo what ever you need to do and put it back on? why would that need a new cable every time? and if you really needed to, you could just slide the end cap off, do whatever you do, then put another one on after? if you have 100 knocking about should last you a while (even at 1 a day that is more than 3 months!)

keef66

I've re-used cables multiple times. If you're fraying the ends so badly you cannot re-thread them then may I suggest that you have a properly sh1t pair of cable cutters.

I find not fitting an end cap is a sure fire way of ending up with a frayed cable end. Some people use superglue on the (neatly) cut ends; you can then rethread them willy nilly.

At the very worst you can fit a new cable for the rear mech then shorten the old one for use on the front mech. Same with the brakes; should satisfy your inner Ebeneezer, no?