£12 billion in welfare cuts
Comments
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Even the Labour Party agree with the benefit cap and the restriction on child tax credits...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33497441"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Even the Labour Party agree with the benefit cap and the restriction on child tax credits...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33497441
Well to be honest that doesn't mean much. New Labour would sell their own Grandmothers soul to the devil, if it got them a few more votes. Harriet Harman is a sell out. New Labour are nothing more than tory lite.
Centre-left
? Centre-left of what? Corporate fascism?"The Prince of Wales is now the King of France" - Calton Kirby0 -
That's the spirit Ben. Help to fight the Tory fascists. If you are not yet a member, pay your 3 quid and help get Corbyn elected leader. Help to build a party Labour supporters deserve.0
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Bally, I hope you have put your money where your mouth is and paid your £3. Aside from the entertainment on the other thread, the sheer amount of comical drivel coming into my inbox from the Labour party PR machine makes it well worth the price of a pint. I've been invited to an event on Friday in support of Diane Abbott (for mayor or something), with special guest speaker no other than the future Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn. I politely declinedThat's the spirit Ben. Help to fight the Tory fascists. If you are not yet a member, pay your 3 quid and help get Corbyn elected leader. Help to build a party Labour supporters deserve.
And don't forget, Ben is sincere in his beliefs, after all it was him who not so long ago held up Venezuela as an example of how a country should go about things "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
And don't forget, Ben is sincere in his beliefs, after all it was him who not so long ago held up Venezuela as an example of how a country should go about things
I think that post stated Venezuela only paid £0.02 per litre for petrol. And how much we get ripped off.
Chavez was disliked because he had big oil reserves and stuck two fingers up to the USA."The Prince of Wales is now the King of France" - Calton Kirby0 -
Bally, I hope you have put your money where your mouth is and paid your £3. Aside from the entertainment on the other thread, the sheer amount of comical drivel coming into my inbox from the Labour party PR machine makes it well worth the price of a pint. I've been invited to an event on Friday in support of Diane Abbott (for mayor or something), with special guest speaker no other than the future Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn. I politely declinedThat's the spirit Ben. Help to fight the Tory fascists. If you are not yet a member, pay your 3 quid and help get Corbyn elected leader. Help to build a party Labour supporters deserve.
And don't forget, Ben is sincere in his beliefs, after all it was him who not so long ago held up Venezuela as an example of how a country should go about things
You should have gone Stevo. You may have got a few pointers about how to find a good school for stropteen. Perhaps she could have recommended one? Not the local one, obviously.
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2. Why not raise corporate tax rates?
I tried to explain this above. Countries use corporate tax rates as one of the levers to attract investment -tax competition is a fact of life. The point being is that sensibly run countries realise that the drop in corporate tax rates is more than offset by the additional investment and economic activity and the other larger taxes that flow from that - governments do their sums on this and are largely coming to the same conclusion. The UK is not alone in dropping corporate rates over recent years - most other countries have done the same thing - including Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Finland to name but a few.
I think the problem is Stevo is that the Corporation tax could be raised owing to all the tax loopholes that the government for some reason is unwilling to tackle (e.g. Starbucks transfer of coffee from Switzerland); which still allows for massive corporate tax fraud. If we made the tax system less Byzantine and more workable there would be less of "So Mr Vodaphone how much do you think you owe us this year?".+++++++++++++++++++++
we are the proud, the few, Descendents.
Panama - finally putting a nail in the economic theory of the trickle down effect.0 -
Symo, a few thoughts:2. Why not raise corporate tax rates?
I tried to explain this above. Countries use corporate tax rates as one of the levers to attract investment -tax competition is a fact of life. The point being is that sensibly run countries realise that the drop in corporate tax rates is more than offset by the additional investment and economic activity and the other larger taxes that flow from that - governments do their sums on this and are largely coming to the same conclusion. The UK is not alone in dropping corporate rates over recent years - most other countries have done the same thing - including Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Finland to name but a few.
I think the problem is Stevo is that the Corporation tax could be raised owing to all the tax loopholes that the government for some reason is unwilling to tackle (e.g. Starbucks transfer of coffee from Switzerland); which still allows for massive corporate tax fraud. If we made the tax system less Byzantine and more workable there would be less of "So Mr Vodaphone how much do you think you owe us this year?".
First off, the Amazon/Google type tax tactics are not tax fraud - these are all legitimate tax avoidance, although as mentioned below these issues have been and are being tackled. Otherwise HMRC would have had them in the dock. Starbucks was a different issue and related to charges for intellectual property which was transfer pricing. In the end HMRC could not touch them as the IP charges were market rates but Starbuck offered to treat some of them as non-deductible voluntarily for PR purposes more than anything else.
The Government has tackled this issue already with the Diverted Profits Tax (DPT) legislation which came in on 1st April:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/385741/Diverted_Profits_Tax.pdf
In addition they are part of the base erosion and profit shifting project that a large number of countries are involved in through the OECD to tackle these same issues (effectively a second layer of rules on top of DPT) which they did to tackle the Google/Amazon type avoidance sooner rather than later:
http://www.pwc.co.uk/tax/issues/beps-adapting-to-a-changing-environment.jhtml
Add to that the amounts of money and resources that have been allocated to HMRC this year in the budget and pretty much every other year that I can recall - here's this years. Just google the budget for any given other year if you want:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7968c704-258c-11e5-bd83-71cb60e8f08c.html#axzz3fyqSAQLM
The statement that there is some sort of cosy chat about 'how much a large group fancies paying' is simply fallacy. HMRC do not do this and I do not see this in my professional experience. The amount may vary where it comes to fundamentally grey areas such as transfer pricing which is driven by economics, but there is no 'softly softly' approach by HMRC in these cases. There are limits in complex cases as taxpayers often have strong cases (and rights) - however in practice HMRC are well advised on what they can achieve in reality and they look to maximise the tax take.
So based on the facts it's hard to agree with your point that large corporates are 'getting away with it' and nothing is being done.
As mentioned above, where cross border tax planning does happen, the profits typically end up in a lower tax country than they would have been. That country benefits. As the UK corporate rate is now pretty competitive (20% now, 18% in approx. 4 years time), the UK is actually starting to benefit from that sort of corporate strategy. Also the additional investment in the UK which is encouraged by the competitive rates result in an increased tax take overall - both in corporate tax terms and from all the other taxes from jobs and economic activity.
PS: I agree that it would be good if the system could be simplified but in reality it's not going to happen any time soon - IMO."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Note the only Labour leadership candidate who voted against the Conservative welfare bill :roll:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-was-the-only-labour-leadership-candidate-to-vote-against-the-welfare-bill-10403576.html
It would appear that all but the looney left wing of Labour have seen the light on this one. And yet there are still people on here who have not..."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Are you suggesting that the majority of Labour MPs know what they are doing?Note the only Labour leadership candidate who voted against the Conservative welfare bill :roll:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-was-the-only-labour-leadership-candidate-to-vote-against-the-welfare-bill-10403576.html
It would appear that all but the looney left wing of Labour have seen the light on this one. And yet there are still people on here who have not...
Maybe you will vote for them next time.
Maybe not, as what they did was, nothing.
Abstaining? How pathetic is that?The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Are you suggesting that the majority of Labour MPs know what they are doing?Note the only Labour leadership candidate who voted against the Conservative welfare bill :roll:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-was-the-only-labour-leadership-candidate-to-vote-against-the-welfare-bill-10403576.html
It would appear that all but the looney left wing of Labour have seen the light on this one. And yet there are still people on here who have not...
Maybe you will vote for them next time.
Maybe not, as what they did was, nothing.
Abstaining? How pathetic is that?
They are lacking any leadership at the moment and faced with a Tory majority.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
So, elected Labour MPs need someone to tell them how to vote.
Are you suggesting that the majority of Labour MPs know what they are doing?Note the only Labour leadership candidate who voted against the Conservative welfare bill :roll:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-was-the-only-labour-leadership-candidate-to-vote-against-the-welfare-bill-10403576.html
It would appear that all but the looney left wing of Labour have seen the light on this one. And yet there are still people on here who have not...
Maybe you will vote for them next time.
Maybe not, as what they did was, nothing.
Abstaining? How pathetic is that?
They are lacking any leadership at the moment and faced with a Tory majority.
How very reassuring.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
I wouldn't be that surprised if, in the future, the public will turn on the cuts & those who supported it.
I think a lot of people who voted Tory would have ideally liked to vote for a continuation of existing policies.
This government isn't really continuing them. They're making them more extreme - which is what you'd expect as they have a majority.
As such, I think a lot of those last-minute secret tory voters (of which my mrs was one) will be unhappy with what is and will be done.
I also wouldn't under-estimate how toxic the 'nasty party' label is, and I think that that kind of mud will stick fairly easily over the next 5 years as the suffering & fallout is felt across the poorer parts of the UK.
For all the crowing from the Tories about their victory and Red Ed losing loads of votes, the Tories barely scraped a majority themselves despite a hefty collapse from Labour and an annihilation of the 3rd biggest party. They're not that popular either.0 -
If the economy goes pear shaped then that could happen. But as things seem to be improving and forecast to continue (although obviously we never know exactly what will happen in future), then I think overall it will be seen as the time when we stopped spending beyond our means and running up ever increasing amounts of debt.
We have had the debt debate before but as a lot of people can now see Greece as a good example of a country that let debt take control of its fate, then there is a lot more support for balancing the books. Greece may well be an extreme example, but I was just about old enough to remember another country in the late 70's that screwed up its finances so badly that it had to go cap in hand to the IMF - that was the UK."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
No-one has mentioned the 5 seat majority of the current government and the low calibre of many sitting MP's, across all parties.
Statistically as we move into everyday politics and the diverse demographic of Tory MP's and unstable local majorities which put them in Parliament means a gradual shift in focus for their own survival and re election which does not always align behind their on parties national policy. Bottomline their balls will shrink if they think it will hurt their chances of re-election.
The recent news where the proposed cuts were not as aggressive as first muted means an awareness and buttressing of their majority and to unwind a central plank of their election manifesto means the internal debate must have been 'interesting'.
The Conservative majority is wafer thin and arguably a bigger driver for more moderate policies than the pact with the Lib Dems. OK the right of the party will have a voice but the majority of the UK will reject the more extreme arguments just as they did with Red Ed.
It was interesting that Cameron announced he would not seek a third term which leaves a transition for a new leader to make their stamp on the party and electorate.“Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring”
Desmond Tutu0 -
If the economy goes pear shaped then that could happen. But as things seem to be improving and forecast to continue (although obviously we never know exactly what will happen in future), then I think overall it will be seen as the time when we stopped spending beyond our means and running up ever increasing amounts of debt.
We have had the debt debate before but as a lot of people can now see Greece as a good example of a country that let debt take control of its fate, then there is a lot more support for balancing the books. Greece may well be an extreme example, but I was just about old enough to remember another country in the late 70's that screwed up its finances so badly that it had to go cap in hand to the IMF - that was the UK.
It's less of a macro & solvency issue (take a look at the US re-deficits). If you really believe that reducing the deficit is so vitally important (we've discussed that enough on here not to-rehash), then fine.
It's more where those cuts land. I think this time it will really put a lot of hard up people into pain (even more than last time) and any chat about economic growth and all of that will be not be felt by those people put into pain.
I think the pain will be more obvious and noticeable to the UK public than the Tories are expecting (and probably even bigger than they will be expecting) and it will be damaging as a result.
Rightly so. Those in the toughest situations shouldn't have to be put in a tougher situations.0 -
The Tories won because of the cuts, like it or not. People are realistic enough to know that the bloated welfare state needs to be brought to heel, and while they fully agree that those who are genuinely down on their luck need help from the rest of us they have no time for the large minority who play the system. And while the left will claim that's a Daily Mail myth those of us who have always lived in working class areas know different because we all know people like that. A million or so east European migrants seem to find jobs ok, yet we have people who haven't worked for years, if at all. I occasionally get involved in recruitment for my job and the ess aitch one tee that comes from the job centre has to be seen to be believed. That's how labour lost a good proportion of their traditional support.I wouldn't be that surprised if, in the future, the public will turn on the cuts & those who supported it.
Another thing to bear in mind is that it is estimated that by 2020 the self employed will out number the state sector. No guessing where the vast majority of votes from either class goes.0 -
The Tories won because of the cuts, like it or not. People are realistic enough to know that the bloated welfare state needs to be brought to heel, and while they fully agree that those who are genuinely down on their luck need help from the rest of us they have no time for the large minority who play the system. And while the left will claim that's a Daily Mail myth those of us who have always lived in working class areas know different because we all know people like that.I wouldn't be that surprised if, in the future, the public will turn on the cuts & those who supported it.
While I agree that there are people like that (I've had more than a few neighbours who meet that description), the difficulty comes in reforming the system so that it doesn't hurt those people who are genuinely in need. As for migration, my wife's an immigrant and so are a lot of my friends, and many of the employers (not all, of course) who employ largely immigrant workforces are absolute scumbags who just see a source of cheap, easily exploitable, disposable labour.0 -
The Tories won because of the cuts, like it or not. People are realistic enough to know that the bloated welfare state needs to be brought to heel, and while they fully agree that those who are genuinely down on their luck need help from the rest of us they have no time for the large minority who play the system. .I wouldn't be that surprised if, in the future, the public will turn on the cuts & those who supported it.
Not quite sure you can call it a large minority.
http://www.cas.org.uk/features/myth-busting-real-figures-benefit-fraud
http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-qa-benefit-fraud-perspective/15796
I think the Lib Dems did a good job of shielding the most vulnerable from cuts. I don't think the Tories will do the same. Hence I think it being a different game this time around.0 -
The Tories won because of the cuts, like it or not. People are realistic enough to know that the bloated welfare state needs to be brought to heel, and while they fully agree that those who are genuinely down on their luck need help from the rest of us they have no time for the large minority who play the system. .I wouldn't be that surprised if, in the future, the public will turn on the cuts & those who supported it.
Not quite sure you can call it a large minority.
http://www.cas.org.uk/features/myth-busting-real-figures-benefit-fraud
http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-qa-benefit-fraud-perspective/15796
I think the Lib Dems did a good job of shielding the most vulnerable from cuts. I don't think the Tories will do the same. Hence I think it being a different game this time around.
A lot of people I know don't regard just fraud as playing the system, it's often about people getting a generous deal without commiting fraud as such. I could point to a couple I know of who have 4 kids and work about 30hrs a week each in retail, low skilled employment. They had social housing upgrades to a bigger place everytime they decided to have another kid and tax credits top up their income fairly well. They have a PS4, the latest Xbox and season tickets for Premier League football. You may dismiss it as anecdotal but these are the kind of things people notice and it's what the Conservatives have played on very smartly in order to gain support for cuts.0 -
I wouldn't be that surprised if, in the future, the public will turn on the cuts & those who supported it.
I think a lot of people who voted Tory would have ideally liked to vote for a continuation of existing policies.
This government isn't really continuing them. They're making them more extreme - which is what you'd expect as they have a majority.
As such, I think a lot of those last-minute secret tory voters (of which my mrs was one) will be unhappy with what is and will be done.
I also wouldn't under-estimate how toxic the 'nasty party' label is, and I think that that kind of mud will stick fairly easily over the next 5 years as the suffering & fallout is felt across the poorer parts of the UK.
For all the crowing from the Tories about their victory and Red Ed losing loads of votes, the Tories barely scraped a majority themselves despite a hefty collapse from Labour and an annihilation of the 3rd biggest party. They're not that popular either.
what bollox.
most people are not directly impacted by the supposed 'cuts' they have heard about them and claim to know people impacted, but in reality very few are impacted and the majority of this country backs the cuts and realises people should cut their cloth accordingly however much righton liberal idiots dont like it. labur will be out for a generation, and with increasing russian and islamic aggression, and continued population growth the right will only get stronger in all developed nations.0 -
I guess England had a bad day at the Ashes :roll:seanoconn - gruagach craic!0
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I wouldn't be that surprised if, in the future, the public will turn on the cuts & those who supported it.
I think a lot of people who voted Tory would have ideally liked to vote for a continuation of existing policies.
This government isn't really continuing them. They're making them more extreme - which is what you'd expect as they have a majority.
As such, I think a lot of those last-minute secret tory voters (of which my mrs was one) will be unhappy with what is and will be done.
I also wouldn't under-estimate how toxic the 'nasty party' label is, and I think that that kind of mud will stick fairly easily over the next 5 years as the suffering & fallout is felt across the poorer parts of the UK.
For all the crowing from the Tories about their victory and Red Ed losing loads of votes, the Tories barely scraped a majority themselves despite a hefty collapse from Labour and an annihilation of the 3rd biggest party. They're not that popular either.
An old post from a while ago.
Not quite the public, but the Sun is already saying Tory cuts are too much...
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/6674334/Government-tax-credit-cuts-to-affect-three-million-Brits.html0 -
Anyone see the lady on question time?
She voted Tory because she works hard, and now she has had her tax credits cut which she can ill afford.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11935413/Ex-Tory-voter-breaks-down-on-Question-Time-over-tax-credit-cuts.html0 -
From the same paper.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/11937376/Tory-voter-who-confronted-minister-over-tax-credit-cuts-may-not-be-affected-by-reforms.html
and
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3276961/Hardworking-mother-four-stunned-Tory-minister-silence-Question-Time-unlikely-affected-tax-credit-cuts.html
Oh.
The cynic in me wonders if she was a plant. 0 -
A plant for whom? Because someone getting up to £400 a week in benefits isn't going to win much support amongst voters for any party.
From what little I've read about it something doesn't seem right about her tale, running a full time business from home that doesn't make any money hence she's dependent on the state to survive? And then votes for the Conservatives? I can't make sense of it from any angle. The worse thing is she's now made herself a target for the media.0 -
I didn't see QT but Ms Dorrell seems a strange fish. I t would appear that she runs a business making max £150 a week and receives benefits to the tune of a grand a month. She goes on telly to break down in tears claiming the Govt have cut her benefits which turns out not to be true.
She claims to have always been politically minded and has decided on this one issue that doesn't seem to affect her to swing from supporting a right wing govt to supporting the furthest left political leader we have ever seen in this country.
On a slight side issue, why is it thought ok to prop up a failing business with tax credits?0 -
I posted this elsewhere, it was conveniently ignored by the usual posters of the right, I feel because it is an uncomfortable truth. Put away all your graphs and polls, it's about real people and real situations. The tories LIED TO THE ELECTORATE! Hopefully in 2020 it will come back to bite them on their arse.
Did any of you see the woman on question time all but reduced to tears at the cuts to working tax credits and the devastating effect they will have on her and her family. I feel for her in one respect, however, she voted for them. Perhaps she believed all the sh1t on tv demonising benefits claimants without realising she was one herself.
She voted tory at the last election but I don't think she will next time. There will be many like her, not saying they will vote labour but they will turn against the tories.Tail end Charlie
The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.0 -
Given the waterworks, probably the case. The amount of positive economic news, lefties are usually reduced to making things up to try to make a point these days . See the Corbyn thread...From the same paper.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/11937376/Tory-voter-who-confronted-minister-over-tax-credit-cuts-may-not-be-affected-by-reforms.html
and
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3276961/Hardworking-mother-four-stunned-Tory-minister-silence-Question-Time-unlikely-affected-tax-credit-cuts.html
Oh.
The cynic in me wonders if she was a plant.
."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0
