DT Swiss R24 Spline

raymond82

Hello there,

I'm looking for a new wheelset but I'm on a budget, doubting between Fulcrum Racing 5 and the DT Swiss R24 spline. Can't find much reviews on or experiences with the DT Swiss set, they seem to be a bit heavier but also look more robust. From what I read weight of wheels is actually not so important, both sets are around 1800 gram which is comparable to the set I have now. Both have a 23mm wide rim which I would like to try, the DT Swiss set has lower rims but I doubt if the aerodynamic advantage is all that big at the speeds I usually ride.

I found quite some information and reviews about the Racing 5, anyone have experience with the DT Swiss wheels?

ugo.santalucia

raymond82 wrote:

Hello there,

I'm looking for a new wheelset but I'm on a budget, doubting between Fulcrum Racing 5 and the DT Swiss R24 spline. Can't find much reviews on or experiences with the DT Swiss set, they seem to be a bit heavier but also look more robust. From what I read weight of wheels is actually not so important, both sets are around 1800 gram which is comparable to the set I have now. Both have a 23mm wide rim which I would like to try, the DT Swiss set has lower rims but I doubt if the aerodynamic advantage is all that big at the speeds I usually ride.

I found quite some information and reviews about the Racing 5, anyone have experience with the DT Swiss wheels?

Neither have aero credentials, so that is a non issue.
I have personally found DT Swiss wheels to be undertensioned and badly built on occasion, while Fulcrum from my experiences are usually built well, so that pretty much closes the argument. However, like any badly built wheel, they can be checked and tensioned properly, if you have a good wheel builder at hand... so budget for that if you want to go that route... remember the award winning star ratchet freehub is NOT featured on those wheels

raymond82

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Neither have aero credentials, so that is a non issue.
As a rule of thumb, DT Swiss wheels are undertensioned and badly built, while Fulcrum are built well, so that pretty much closes the argument. However, like any badly built wheel, they can be checked and tensioned properly, if you have a good wheel builder at hand... so budget for that if you want to go that route... remember the award winning star ratchet freehub is NOT featured on those wheels

Thanks, that is some really helpful advice! I was actually leaning towards the DT Swiss thinking that given it is a good brand the quality might be better. Also with the higher spoke count I thought the wheels might be a bit stronger. Good thing I asked first! I was doubting between building a Kinlin/Novatec set from Dbop myself and getting factory ones but decided to go for factory ones for now to be sure to have reliable wheels. If the DT Swiss cannot be fully trusted beforehand I'd rather go for the Fulcrum's and be worry free.

Is it wise to go for the CX ones with extra sealed bearings?

Grill

raymond82 wrote:

Is it wise to go for the CX ones with extra sealed bearings?

From my experience, yes.

raymond82

Grill wrote:

raymond82 wrote:

Is it wise to go for the CX ones with extra sealed bearings?

From my experience, yes.

Ok! I found the CX offered for 215 euro (~160 pounds), that seems like a pretty good deal! I don't think there is any comparable wheelset for that price with a wide rim so I'm gonna go for it.

Origami02

raymond82 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Neither have aero credentials, so that is a non issue.
As a rule of thumb, DT Swiss wheels are undertensioned and badly built, while Fulcrum are built well, so that pretty much closes the argument. However, like any badly built wheel, they can be checked and tensioned properly, if you have a good wheel builder at hand... so budget for that if you want to go that route... remember the award winning star ratchet freehub is NOT featured on those wheels

Thanks, that is some really helpful advice! I was actually leaning towards the DT Swiss thinking that given it is a good brand the quality might be better. Also with the higher spoke count I thought the wheels might be a bit stronger. Good thing I asked first! I was doubting between building a Kinlin/Novatec set from Dbop myself and getting factory ones but decided to go for factory ones for now to be sure to have reliable wheels. If the DT Swiss cannot be fully trusted beforehand I'd rather go for the Fulcrum's and be worry free.

Is it wise to go for the CX ones with extra sealed bearings?

Whilst I'm sure that either wheel-set may very well be perfectly adequate for the OP's requirements, I'd urge him to get some more feedback before making his decision .
The assertion that DT Swiss, a company with one of the largest R+D budgets in the wheel building industry, don't build their wheels well doesn't ring true at all.

Grill

And yet they source rims from Reynolds and Lightweight makes their disc...

From what I can tell their factory wheels are just as proprietary as any of the big names and they'll be assembled in some factory overseas. R&D does nothing for those things...

Origami02

Grill wrote:

And yet they source rims from Reynolds and Lightweight makes their disc...And yet they source rims from Reynolds

That would seem totally irrelevant unless you're suggesting that DT don't manufacture any rims. Which, as you know, would be a silly suggestion.

Grill wrote:

From what I can tell their factory wheels are just as proprietary as any of the big names and they'll be assembled in some factory overseas. ...

This appears to be supposition. Even if it is the case how does that automatically equate to low quality ......It simply doesn't

You can't seriously argue that R+D spent on designing rims, hubs and spokes doesn't equate to DT Swiss also understanding intimately the process required to build complete wheels.

People like the OP come here looking for helpful impartial advice. I would suggest more feed-back, from both here and elsewhere, would put him in a position to make a more informed decision. The best type of feedback would ideally be from folk who have used either or both oh the wheel-sets he's asked about.

ugo.santalucia

I have owned DT wheels and they were a total utter disaster... 3 spoke breakages within the first 600 miles, each of them leading to an aborted ride... I then learned to fix and build wheels (as a result of that!) I then had to fix other people's DT wheels, which are pretty much always badly built and under tensioned. The Tricon design then was a bit of a joke, a bad one, but that's another story, irrelevant to the OP.

There might be some good ones around, but I have yet to see one... maybe the MTBike wheels are better... those are more difficult to get wrong

Origami02

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I have owned DT wheels and they were a total utter disaster... 3 spoke breakages within the first 600 miles, each of them leading to an aborted ride... I then learned to fix and build wheels (as a result of that!) I then had to fix other people's DT wheels, which are pretty much always badly built and under tensioned. The Tricon design then was a bit of a joke, a bad one, but that's another story, irrelevant to the OP.

There might be some good ones around, but I have yet to see one... maybe the MTBike wheels are better... those are more difficult to get wrong

With all due respect, your personal limited experience with DT wheels hardly constitutes a "Rule of Thumb" being, as it must be by definition, a fraction of a percentage point of the number of DT Swiss wheels in circulation. Perhaps even offering the caveat " in my experience" might offer the OP a clearer perspective from which to usefully evaluate such feedback.

ugo.santalucia

raymond82 wrote:

Thanks, that is some really helpful advice! I was actually leaning towards the DT Swiss thinking that given it is a good brand the quality might be better. Also with the higher spoke count I thought the wheels might be a bit stronger. Good thing I asked first! I was doubting between building a Kinlin/Novatec set from Dbop myself and getting factory ones but decided to go for factory ones for now to be sure to have reliable wheels. If the DT Swiss cannot be fully trusted beforehand I'd rather go for the Fulcrum's and be worry free.

DT Swiss made their fortune making the best spokes around... then they patented their HUGI ratchet system for the rear hub, which is still in use today (but not for the wheelset in question) and it is very good.
Their affair with assembled wheels is more recent and somewhat less successful. They have always trailed behind Mavic, Shimano etc... making products that were not as well received and frankly not as good IMO.
My Mon Chasseral 2007 vintage were built on a hub that was not adequate to be assembled with a shallow rim at 28 H and DT revolution spokes, as the flange was way too narrow for that construction... I would only learn that later... they should have known. I suspect even the original tension must have been too low, as fatigue failures kicked in very early on. Have they learnt from their mistakes? Judging by wheels like the Tricon series, one would say no, as they have exactly the same problems of spoke failures and lack of stiffness with the added bonus of an extremely complicated assembly, which even requires sacrificial plastic tools for the fitting, crazy stuff.
The spline series in question is kind of cheap and cheerful and the construction is simpler, but the ones I have seen had inadequate spoke tension to go the distance. I would not buy them over the Fulcrum 5

Origami02

Ugo wrote:

However, like any badly built wheel, they can be checked and tensioned properly, if you have a good wheel builder at hand... so budget for that if you want to go that route... remember the award winning star ratchet freehub is NOT featured on those wheels

The elephant in the room here is that you are a hand builder and have, once again, successfully insinuated your trade into a thread about factory wheels.
As I said before, I would urge the OP to seek feedback from as many different people as possible. Preferably people with direct recent experience of the wheels he's considering.

Grill

Origami02 wrote:

Ugo wrote:

However, like any badly built wheel, they can be checked and tensioned properly, if you have a good wheel builder at hand... so budget for that if you want to go that route... remember the award winning star ratchet freehub is NOT featured on those wheels

The elephant in the room here is that you are a hand builder and have, once again, successfully insinuated your trade into a thread about factory wheels.
As I said before, I would urge the OP to seek feedback from as many different people as possible. Preferably people with direct recent experience of the wheels he's considering.

Wut? That's exactly the type of input I would be looking for... When I buy anything new I'd much rather have an expert's advice than a punter who was once in the same room as the product in question. Most people don't know their wheels from a pizza, so how would soliciting their opinions be a worthwhile endeavour?

raymond82

Origami02 wrote:

The elephant in the room here is that you are a hand builder and have, once again, successfully insinuated your trade into a thread about factory wheels.
As I said before, I would urge the OP to seek feedback from as many different people as possible. Preferably people with direct recent experience of the wheels he's considering.

Grill wrote:

Origami02 wrote:

Ugo wrote:

However, like any badly built wheel, they can be checked and tensioned properly, if you have a good wheel builder at hand... so budget for that if you want to go that route... remember the award winning star ratchet freehub is NOT featured on those wheels

The elephant in the room here is that you are a hand builder and have, once again, successfully insinuated your trade into a thread about factory wheels.
As I said before, I would urge the OP to seek feedback from as many different people as possible. Preferably people with direct recent experience of the wheels he's considering.

Wut? That's exactly the type of input I would be looking for... When I buy anything new I'd much rather have an expert's advice than a punter who was once in the same room as the product in question. Most people don't know their wheels from a pizza, so how would soliciting their opinions be a worthwhile endeavour?

I very much appreciate your concern, indeed I would like to get as much input as possible. Being a bit of a ponderer I usually spend a lot of time before deciding on what to buy, especially now that I'm on a budget. The problem is that I find reviews online like those on the bikeradar.com website not always easy to trust. Cheaper wheels usually are obviously heavier and then I read things like "once riding faster than 15 m/h these wheels start rolling really well" and of course it makes me doubt again, even after reading quite some articles that say that weight isn't all that important. Especially not the 300 grams or so I would lose by spending maybe double the amount of money.

Either way, I guess that's in general why people post on forums! I have to say it is indeed more valuable to me to get input from a wheelbuilder who regularly sees these wheels than from a single user who has experience with them. That's the hard part about the DT Swiss ones, it's really hard to find any user experience or reviews on them. The recent experience is an important point though as models from different years might also differ.

All and all having the confirmation that the Racing 5s are a good set of wheels and not having much information about the R24s makes me lean towards the Racing 5. But any input is still more than welcome, knowing me I'll probably take a couple more days before I finally pull the trigger...

ugo.santalucia

raymond82 wrote:

Either way, I guess that's in general why people post on forums! I have to say it is indeed more valuable to me to get input from a wheelbuilder who regularly sees these wheels than from a single user who has experience with them.

Regular basis is a bit rich, maybe 6-7 sets of DT swiss road wheels...
Go for the Fulcrum, deffo better choice

raymond82

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Regular basis is a bit rich, maybe 6-7 sets of DT swiss road wheels...
Go for the Fulcrum, deffo better choice

Of course I don't know what proportion that is of the total amount of wheels you see or the total amount of DT Swiss Spline wheels currently in use but it sounds like a lot. Especially if the Fulcrum's you see have less issues I trust your judgment on this.

I heard the Fulcrum hubs are bloody noisy though! I'd have to get used to that especially when going downhill I suppose, my previous Shimano and Mavic hubs were pretty quiet.

Origami02

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Regular basis is a bit rich, maybe 6-7 sets of DT swiss road wheels...
Go for the Fulcrum, deffo better choice

First off "Maybe" and "deffo* sit ill together, especially in the context of such tiny,tiny numbers . That aside :

So lets be generous and round up to seven. Now, the first pair of these wheels you spoke of were 2007 vintage, so it appears we're talking an overall average of you seeing 1 pair of DT Swiss wheels per year between 2007 and 2014.
What percentage would you guesstimate 1(or even 7) to be of the annual sales of DT Swiss wheelsets ? We're clearly talking about a fraction of 1 % here. How exactly does tiny, totally statistically insignificant % end up being presented as

Ugo wrote:

As a rule of thumb, Swiss wheels are undertensioned and badly built

What you're saying appears to be such manifest eyewash that, absent the fact it is clearly irresponsible to present this as relevant "expert" testimony, it would be highly amusing.( Ask any medical student about "the 1 percent'ers" .)

Unless all 7 of your study group wheel sets were brought to you factory fresh and unused it makes this

Ugo wrote:

As a rule of thumb, Swiss wheels are undertensioned and badly built

an even more preposterous proposition. As people do view you as something of a wheel expert ON HERE , I really feel you should act more responsibly when dispensing advice to people who, as Grill put it

Grill wrote:

people don't know their wheels from a pizza,

In addition to and compounding the above, is the damage you could potentially cause to manufacturers like DT Swiss by making such wholly-irresponsible and demonstrably, statistically-unrepresentative casual slurs against their products.

Grill

Origami02 wrote:

Grill wrote:

people don't know their wheels from a pizza,

In addition to and compounding the above, is the damage you could potentially cause to manufacturers like DT Swiss by making such wholly-irresponsible and demonstrably, statistically-unrepresentative casual slurs against their products.

Really? REALLY? :roll:

Origami02

To be fair, you've really quoted me out of context.

Grill

Seriously bro, you're turning a thread asking for advice and opinions into a crusade against exactly that. This is a forum on the internet, not the Supreme Court. Get a grip mate.

It's almost as if you're the one responsible for DT's wheel tensioning and you're incensed that anyone would question your competence in the matter.

Origami02

Grill if you choose to interpret a tiny fraction of 1 percent as being in any way indicative, "a rule of thumb" even, and someone pointing out that it's clearly not "a rule of thumb" as "a crusade", that's your prerogative. I think I'd really rather leave it there if you don't mind.

raymond82

After receiving them last week I went for two rides with the Fulcrums and I like them a lot. With 25 mm tires and around 6 bar they are more comfortable on rougher roads and I also think I can notice that cornering is better compared to the narrow rims I had before. The freehub is actually really quite so that is also a big plus. All and all I'm very happy with them. I liked the look of the DT Swiss wheels but now I've decided to rebuild an old wheel with the DT Swiss R460 rims for the winter, these look very similar.

KarVi

I know the original poster allready made his decision, but I will comment anyway for anyone who finds this thread in search for answers.

I was looking for a new wheelset for my Giant Defy 3, since the original rear wheel had been destroyed to a point where my bicycle mechanic couldnt repair it.

I asked a friend, who is a bicycle training instructor in his hometown, which wheelset he would recommend in my price range.

He recommended the DT Swiss R24 spline, as he had very good experiences with these on his winter bike, and on his wifes bike. He had also recommended them for some of the riders in his instructor classes (even for mtb use).
They were a little bit pricier than I had aimed for, but I went for them given his recommendations.
He recommended them because they roll very well, dispite not being the lightest wheels, are durable, and he commented that the hubs was at a very high quality given the price. This guy knows his stuff, maintains his and his wifes bikes himself, and doesn't use cheap stuff on his bikes. He is very perfectionistic about his bikes.

After some problems with delivery (from Rose bikes), I got them home at a reasonable price.
Compared to the standard wheels they are a definite step up (as they should be). And they seem to be off a very nice quality. I was really impressed with them during unpacking.

I have used them for some months now, and they are very solid. The bike feels snappier, and more controlable than before. It corners a lot more precise.

I havent experienced any problems with them, the wheels are still true and the spokes are well tensioned. I ride the bike harder on these wheels, because they give me more confidence than the original wheels.

My only "complaint" is that the freewheel sound is very loud, so the guys I ride with allways now when Im "resting"

I would give these my full recommendation, I'm very pleased with mine.

Edit:
I think I must say, I weigh about 87 kg, and my bike is about 10 kg. So the load on the bike, complete with water bottles and so on is at about 100kg.