Cheating

taon24

I was racing for the second time on Thursday.
The race was at Mallory Park near Leicester and was 3/4s.
Each lap consists of a slight drag from the start/finish to a 180 degree hairpin, downhill into a fastish Left/Right chicane, a straight and then a slower Left/Right/Left chicane, which then leads onto a long straight to the bottom of the little rise to the start/finish.
The track has options for with and without the chicanes, and there is simply a line of cones to direct people through the correct route.
I was near the back for most of the race, and several laps one of the racers simply shortcutted the chicane by turning left with everyone else and then continuing on through the line of cones to join the group several places higher. He was cutting across others racing line so it wasn't dangerous, and he was always on tarmac, so unlikely to injure himself.
There was no commissaire or marshal at the corner so I guess he felt there was no penalty.
He went on to get dropped from the group and so it didn't affect the results.

What would people do in future if this happened?
What would you do if it was affecting your racing. e.g. he kept cutting in line in front of you by cheating?

napoleond

Have you ever seen Falling Down with Michael Douglas?

That's what I'd do.

andcp

I was spectating and can confirm this happened. However as it didn't affect the results I wouldn't get too stressed about it, I suspect he was trying to stay with the main group for as long as possible. If it affects results, have a word with the commissionaires.

As an aside, I thought it was a great race on Thursday, really good to watch.

taon24

Andcp wrote:

I was spectating and can confirm this happened. However as it didn't affect the results I wouldn't get too stressed about it, I suspect he was trying to stay with the main group for as long as possible. If it affects results, have a word with the commissionaires.

As an aside, I thought it was a great race on Thursday, really good to watch.

It does make it more awkward for others at the back though. He cheats to stay with the group rather than getting dropped. When he eventually gets dropped rather than having been pushed to the back by being the slowest he is 15 places up having cheated each lap and therefore leaves a gap between the bunch and the back 15, rather than just being dropped himself.

andcp

Point taken. Have a word with the guy, ask him why he's doing it? - tell him you're not impressed.
I should be there again this week, lets see if he does it again.

imposter2.0

The whole bunch should be laying into him verbally every time he does it. Has that not happened?

JayKosta

While it may appear to have been 'safe' this time, it IS a safety concern to have someone insert them self into the pack from 'off the course'.

I'd ask that an official be at the location to observe, and also perhaps you could 'explain the situation' to the rider beforehand.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

DeVlaeminck

Imposter wrote:

The whole bunch should be laying into him verbally every time he does it. Has that not happened?

Exactly this, I'd have expected a few words would have been aimed in their direction.

andcp

No cheating last night that I could see

taon24

Dunno, the two Cat 4s attaching to the back of the Cat 2s and sweeping up all the primes as they were a lap up on them seemed pretty off to me.

gllewellyn

In this situation, when you're clearly unhappy with how someone is racing, after the race you should go and have a polite word with one of the commissaires. Explain what was happening and then leave it with them to deal with.

Maybe they knew but decided as it wasn't affecting results, so leave it. Or if they didn't know, they can then choose how to deal with it.

andcp

taon24 wrote:

Dunno, the two Cat 4s attaching to the back of the Cat 2s and sweeping up all the primes as they were a lap up on them seemed pretty off to me.

Don't blame the cat 4's (I think there were 3 of them) - I think there was a mistake in not releasing the scratch riders sooner.......

jibberjim

Andcp wrote:

taon24 wrote:

Dunno, the two Cat 4s attaching to the back of the Cat 2s and sweeping up all the primes as they were a lap up on them seemed pretty off to me.

Don't blame the cat 4's (I think there were 3 of them) - I think there was a mistake in not releasing the scratch riders sooner.......

Erm, no, if you're racing two races on the same circuit it is the job of the racers to keep the races distinct.

As described, they cheated.

andcp

jibberjim wrote:

Andcp wrote:

taon24 wrote:

Dunno, the two Cat 4s attaching to the back of the Cat 2s and sweeping up all the primes as they were a lap up on them seemed pretty off to me.

Don't blame the cat 4's (I think there were 3 of them) - I think there was a mistake in not releasing the scratch riders sooner.......

Erm, no, if you're racing two races on the same circuit it is the job of the racers to keep the races distinct.

As described, they cheated.

Can you clarify something for me - so when the Cat 3's caught the cat 4's they should have stayed behind them or should the cat 4's let them go by and not joined up with them? I'm confused.....

jibberjim

Andcp wrote:

Can you clarify something for me - so when the Cat 3's caught the cat 4's they should have stayed behind them or should the cat 4's let them go by and not joined up with them? I'm confused.....

Depends on the instructions from the commissaires with two races, normally the slower race (ie those who got caught) neutralise themselves until the faster race has established the race.

So yes, the 4th's should've sat up to enable the faster race to go by without joining in, takes just a few seconds, and yes it can disrupt that slower race, but that's why it's good to get to race on circuits where you can get the circuit to yourself.

andcp

Jim,

Here's what the Mallory RR web site says about the 2/3/4 handicap race (for that is what is was):
For the Handicap races, riders are set off in category groups with 4th cats and women being given up to a lap start on the 2nd cats. First over the line at the end wins, but lap primes will be awarded to give the lower category riders a good change to accumulate winnings As far as I am aware, and I was at the start line at the time, no other instructions were given by the Commissionaires.

I am of the opinion it was one race and the 4th cats who grabbed on to the back of the 2nd cats were allowed to do so, so no cheating. As an aside, one of the younger 4th cats worked like a dog at the front of the 2nd cat group and (IMO) definitely deserved to be in the first three.

sub55

jibberjim wrote:

Andcp wrote:

taon24 wrote:

Dunno, the two Cat 4s attaching to the back of the Cat 2s and sweeping up all the primes as they were a lap up on them seemed pretty off to me.

Don't blame the cat 4's (I think there were 3 of them) - I think there was a mistake in not releasing the scratch riders sooner.......

Erm, no, if you're racing two races on the same circuit it is the job of the racers to keep the races distinct.

As described, they cheated.

I was DQ`d for this a number of years ago, was and still am livid with the commissionaire.
It was a handicap event on a short motor racing circuit, basically I made a break and caught the group that was supposed to be catching me , on doing so ( knowing this was going to cause an issue ) I went straight to the front of this pack of second cats , who obviously haven`t got a clue and they all sat on my wheel. well there's a surprise. So this point i'm a lap up on everybody else , yet I get DQ'd for taking pace. ARRRRRRR

jibberjim

Andcp wrote:

Here's what the Mallory RR web site says about the 2/3/4 handicap race (for that is what is was):
For the Handicap races, riders are set off in category groups with 4th cats and women being given up to a lap start on the 2nd cats. First over the line at the end wins, but lap primes will be awarded to give the lower category riders a good change to accumulate winnings As far as I am aware, and I was at the start line at the time, no other instructions were given by the Commissionaires.

Absolutely no cheating there then as you say, it was 1 race and a handicap, although odd not to have the win for the win (so the scratch need to unlap themselves, but I guess that's because of a short and easy to sit in circuit making it near impossible to do it?)

taon24

I think last week it was the release of the Cat 2s that caused the problems more than anything else. They needed to be released 15s sooner, to make it much harder for the Cat 4s to catch on to the back of the Cat 2s.
While it is not against the rules to join up with the group who have only just been released from the start line it was clearly not the idea of the event to have the scratch riders and the Cat 4s ride round in a bunch with the scratch riders counting as being a lap down. The situation is further complicated by the difficulty of recognising who belonged in each group. I don't think many of the Cat 2s realised they were contributing to someone elses win. I think the fairest thing, once the Cat 2s were released late, would be for the Cat 4s to have sat up for 30 seconds to let the Cat 2s to get started, and then tried to chase them.
Clearly in future races you can make rules about who can draft who etc.
The other thing is coloured dossards on riders back to mark their groups (4s in Red, 3s in Yellow, 2s in blue) this would help both riders to know who is from which group and to help officials determine who is winning in a group.

jibberjim

It's a handicap, it's the scratch groups job to drop them if they're caught - and not get caught in the first place, but you do get handicaps where the scratch are set off a lap down, although that will probably be more with E/1 scratches than 2nd's!

Perfectly reasonable for the last man in scratch to let a gap open and force the 4th's to chase before sprinting round.

colinsmith123

sub55 wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

Andcp wrote:

taon24 wrote:

Dunno, the two Cat 4s attaching to the back of the Cat 2s and sweeping up all the primes as they were a lap up on them seemed pretty off to me.

Don't blame the cat 4's (I think there were 3 of them) - I think there was a mistake in not releasing the scratch riders sooner.......

Erm, no, if you're racing two races on the same circuit it is the job of the racers to keep the races distinct.

As described, they cheated.

I was DQ`d for this a number of years ago, was and still am livid with the commissionaire.
It was a handicap event on a short motor racing circuit, basically I made a break and caught the group that was supposed to be catching me , on doing so ( knowing this was going to cause an issue ) I went straight to the front of this pack of second cats , who obviously haven`t got a clue and they all sat on my wheel. well there's a surprise. So this point i'm a lap up on everybody else , yet I get DQ'd for taking pace. ARRRRRRR

Commissaires lose sight of what their role is. They are there to ensure fair play. Support those racing, not the other way around.

In my distant past, there used to be the Birkenhead Park Crits. The first riders off were the 3rd cats, then 1 minute later 2nd cats, then another 1 minute the 1st cats, and finally the juniors at 30s as I recall. The juniors were the front of the race. And for the first 10-15 minutes it was hell on wheels as we juniors would try to catch the 1st cats. Any 1st cats that got caught were then eliminated for being a lap down. This didn't happen too often, but this sounds contrary to sub55s experience.

sub55

colinsmith123 wrote:

sub55 wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

Andcp wrote:

taon24 wrote:

Dunno, the two Cat 4s attaching to the back of the Cat 2s and sweeping up all the primes as they were a lap up on them seemed pretty off to me.

Don't blame the cat 4's (I think there were 3 of them) - I think there was a mistake in not releasing the scratch riders sooner.......

Erm, no, if you're racing two races on the same circuit it is the job of the racers to keep the races distinct.

As described, they cheated.

I was DQ`d for this a number of years ago, was and still am livid with the commissionaire.
It was a handicap event on a short motor racing circuit, basically I made a break and caught the group that was supposed to be catching me , on doing so ( knowing this was going to cause an issue ) I went straight to the front of this pack of second cats , who obviously haven`t got a clue and they all sat on my wheel. well there's a surprise. So this point i'm a lap up on everybody else , yet I get DQ'd for taking pace. ARRRRRRR

Commissaires lose sight of what their role is. They are there to ensure fair play. Support those racing, not the other way around.

In my distant past, there used to be the Birkenhead Park Crits. The first riders off were the 3rd cats, then 1 minute later 2nd cats, then another 1 minute the 1st cats, and finally the juniors at 30s as I recall. The juniors were the front of the race. And for the first 10-15 minutes it was hell on wheels as we juniors would try to catch the 1st cats. Any 1st cats that got caught were then eliminated for being a lap down. This didn't happen too often, but this sounds contrary to sub55s experience.

In my mind that is how is should work although in my case you cant blame the 2nd cats, as they had no idea they had been caught and the scenario had obviously never occurred before as it was not mentioned in the rider briefing. In conversations with the com afterwards was told. I was DQ ed because in his opinion there was no chance I could have stayed away if I had not caught them. What he did not know is although I was a novice 4th cat, my discipline of choice is TTing, which reasonably accomplished at. Proved a point a couple of days later in a BC TT with the same com in control, we exchange stares as the envelope was handed to the novice road man who just put time in to many elites.

DeVlaeminck

Shouldn't have been the comms place to have an opinion on whether you would have stayed away - just whether you'd broken any regulations.

colinsmith123

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Shouldn't have been the comms place to have an opinion on whether you would have stayed away - just whether you'd broken any regulations.

Very true. We had a similar conversation in the cafe on Saturday. One BCF commissaire in the south east region (it was a few year's back), DQ'd a rider for having a lap out following a mechanical, as it was not in the rules. In the same event the following week, the commissaire's lad punctured. You can guess the rest.