First Wheelset Upgrade Question

whitestar1

I have a £200 budget and looking at the Mavic Cosmic Elite S WTS Wheels on Merlin cycles for £280 and the
Fulcrum Racing Quattro Clincher Wheelset on Wiggle for £193.

I really would like to know is the Quattro better/as good/or worse than the Cosmic? I would try and get the extra £80 if so (a stretch that would be lol).

Looking for a 30mm areo wheelset which both are. Not worried about weight.

simon_masterson

What are your existing wheels and what do you perceive to be inadequate about them? The answer in any case however is probably handbuilt.

whitestar1

Simon Masterson wrote:

What are your existing wheels and what do you perceive to be inadequate about them? The answer in any case however is probably handbuilt.

busted Mavic Aksium, was in an accident with a car. Have the default wheelset that came with the bike.

lostboysaint

Decide what you want from your riding, then start a conversation with a wheelbuilder and instead of getting your "first upgrade" get an "upgrade for life".

thiscocks

Quattros. AFAIK they both weigh around 1750g, both good solid wheels just Mavics cost more!

whitestar1

thiscocks wrote:

Quattros. AFAIK they both weigh around 1750g, both good solid wheels just Mavics cost more!

Thanks mate

markhewitt1978

No point asking in this forum as the only answer you'll get is handbuilt and everything else gets shouted down.

Vslowpace

If you're going to stretch that budget up to £280 I'd look at Campag Zonda wheels. IIRC Wiggle have them for about £250

drlodge

Vslowpace wrote:

If you're going to stretch that budget up to £280 I'd look at Campag Zonda wheels. IIRC Wiggle have them for about £250

This, or a set of hand built

whitestar1

drlodge wrote:

Vslowpace wrote:

If you're going to stretch that budget up to £280 I'd look at Campag Zonda wheels. IIRC Wiggle have them for about £250

This, or a set of hand built

And so it begins!

supermurph09

check out the Cero wheels at cycledivision

mfin

"Looking for a 30mm areo wheelset which both are. Not worried about weight."... the wheels you mention won't give you any performance aero-wise, but the weight will have a negative effect. So, in the end, if you go that way, you are only buying based on what you like the look of, there's not much 'upgrade' going on for your money.


+1 on Zondas. Wait a bit and a deal will come up every few months for them at under £200.
But, that's counter to what you are saying, but at least you will feel the upgrade.

simon_masterson

markhewitt1978 wrote:

No point asking in this forum as the only answer you'll get is handbuilt and everything else gets shouted down.

And with good reason. Some are distinctly worse than others, but wheels with proprietory spokes (which can be a pain, expensive or both to replace should one fail) too few in number and in silly patterns, are a con. The manufacturers want you to buy them because they are cheap and convenient to produce, they'll get more money out of you because wheels like these won't last very long and you'll throw the whole thing away and buy another wheel, and the gullible punters will think they look 'pro' and will go faster. The aerodynamic difference between 32 regular double butted spokes and 16 bladed ones is small even in time trial terms - there's really no reason for everyday (or even your Sunday best, frankly) wheels to be (under)built like this. A wheelbuilder can advise on all aspects of the wheel and its build, and subsequently produce something that is appropriate for your weight, the riding that you do, the roads you do it on, the tyres you use... Good hubs, laced up to good rims with 32 good spokes by a wheelbuilder that knows what he's doing will ride beautifully and lace up again and again.

And lighter wheels are nicer to ride. Deep rims (cheap ones, particularly) are a weighty irrelevance to less powerful riders (and make small enough of a difference to the powerful ones), much like buying tri bars to amble along.

964cup

I build wheels. Neither as often nor, I suspect, as well as Ugo. But I'm unconvinced of the benefits of handbuilt wheels at the bargain end of the market. At £400 and up, you can build a wheelset that's competitive in weight and stiffness with, say, the Mavic Ksyrium Elite or the Fulcrum Racing 3. It'll ride as well, or better, and when you wear out the rims, you'll be able to replace them for sensible money. With factory wheels at that price point, even assuming you can get the parts, it's usually cheaper to throw the wheels away when the rims wear out.

But assuming you want to spend £200, what can you get for the money? Archetypes on Novatec 171/172 with Sapim Race in a 24/28 is about £170 in parts. So assuming you can find someone to build them for you for £30, fine - but that's a 1700g wheelset on very cheap hubs (and someone will be along in a minute to say it should be 28/28 or 32/32). Aksiums are 1820g and £160 list at Wiggle. Shimano R501s are 1885g, bombproof, and currently £70 (yes, for the wheelset, with tape and QRs) at Wiggle. Yes, they're disposable wheels, but so what at £70? It's going to cost you £75 to replace *one* rim on a wheel built with Archetypes, assuming you pay someone £25 to do it.

whitestar1

Thank you all for the opinions. Wow TBH I am more confused now! I see the reasons for hand built but even it I can stretch to £300 its clear that hand built is out of budget. Mavic or Fulcrum its down to.

apreading

Eh? You ask for advice, the overwhelming opinion is that the two you put forward are fine but you would be much better with either Campag Zonda or handbuilt, you rule out handbuilt for reasons I understand but why are you not considering Zonda which 4 posters above said are much better than the Mavic of Fulcrum?.

lostboysaint

whitestar1 wrote:

Thank you all for the opinions. Wow TBH I am more confused now! I see the reasons for hand built but even it I can stretch to £300 its clear that hand built is out of budget. Mavic or Fulcrum its down to.

And you're wrong about handbuilt not being an option at that price. A decent 23mm rim on a pair of Miche Primato hubs built with Sapim Race spokes will come in around or just under that price. They'll be better in every respect, including the fact that you can service them easily, replacing worn/broken parts simply etc.

If you really must buy a factory set then it's difficult to look past the Zondas.

drlodge

I'll say it again for the hard of hearing...Zondas or hand built :roll:

thiscocks

apreading wrote:

Eh? You ask for advice, the overwhelming opinion is that the two you put forward are fine but you would be much better with either Campag Zonda or handbuilt, you rule out handbuilt for reasons I understand but why are you not considering Zonda which 4 posters above said are much better than the Mavic of Fulcrum?.

To be fair he said 30mm rim. The Zondas are good but not THAT much better than Quatros, and Id actually say Quatros would be better if you wanted to do the odd Time Trial. The Zondas are great for racing but for general road riding I actually found them pretty harsh riding. Not sure what the quatros are like comfort wise though.

Bobbinogs

Fulcrum 5 LG's look quite tempting at 175 quid. Failing that, Zondas if you can spend a bit more as they have good hubs that can be serviced and are nice and light. Very stiff though, which is generally a good thing but can be tiring.

mabbo

I agree with lostboysaint. Three years ago I upgraded to a handbuilt set. Built by the cycleclinic. Look them up. Guys name was Malcolm Borg. DT swiss 415 rims, DT swiss stainless spokes. Miche racing hubs. MAlcolm built them for my weight and my bike. They have been bomb proof, especially over the crap roads of East Sussex. And they weighd in at 1700 gms. They cost me £280. Well worth it. However, he could have built me a set for less than that with chepae rhubs and spokes. Either way, more than worth the money.

ayjaycee

Bobbinogs wrote:

Fulcrum 5 LG's look quite tempting at 175 quid. Failing that, Zondas if you can spend a bit more as they have good hubs that can be serviced and are nice and light. Very stiff though, which is generally a good thing but can be tiring.

I bought a pair of Fulcrum 5 LGs a few weeks ago and paid about £150 for them from Wiggle who price matched one of the German on-line retailers (Bike Discount, I think). At that price, they were a real bargain IMHO and a definite step up from the original Axis Classics on my Allez which I also sold on to offset part of the bill. I just looked and they are still at the same price:
http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/fulc ... tAod8isAzA

Origami02

These guys are worth a look.http://www.superstarcomponents.com/en/# They do a range of wheels within your budget. To me they appear to offer a good compromise : non-proprietary parts-ergo rebuild-ability , without the price tag of similarly specced handbuilts or the throw away nature of some cheaper factory wheels . Mind you, the consensus seems that you won't go wrong with Zondas, which you can get from 4thebike.de for £215 + postage.
Ocassionally you cab pick up Mavic Cosmics for around £240-250 if you look around enough.

Dizeee

I ran Quattros for two years on my De Riosa, I have to say they were great wheels and I still have them sat in a box with the braking surface resembling what they looked like when they were new ( hardly any wear and shiny due to only dry miles on a sunday bike ).

The wheels are a 35mm depth, and I think you do get some tiny aero margin. They would allow me to regularly average 20+ on a ride, although I think the carbon frame has a lot to do with that. They don't jar or bang at all, are very robust, and look quite nice too. A very smooth wheelset, and at an impressive price.

simon_masterson

Dizeee wrote:

...and I think you do get some tiny aero margin.

It's best to look at this the other way round - if you can't average 20mph+, deep rims are of very little use to you; extra weight more than anything else. At that level, any and all 'marginal gains' are irrelevant; you just need to train more. Worth having if you are holding speeds of more like 25mph+, and for longer periods, but even for top time triallists, the difference between a good disc and trispoke shod with silk tubs, and a pair of box sections with regular racing tyres, is important only in time trial terms.

Dizeee wrote:

...although I think the carbon frame has a lot to do with that.

Out of interest, why particularly?

Dizeee

the way the bike rides as a whole. I used to think my ally Bianchi was a great ride, until I bought my De Rosa. The difference between how each bike ride's is so significant that I it blew me away, I never knew how efficient a frame could be.

Having owned both and ridden both now for 2 years, I know exactly what to expect from each. The Bianchi is slow, unresponsive and flexy. You put some power down on the pedals, and there is hardly any response from the bike. Sure you can get up to some good speed on it and you can still make progress, but it's heavy, with cheap wheels, and it doesn't inspire you or demand anything from you as a rider. It's all a bit "meh".

On the De Rosa, it is completely different. The bike responds instantly to any input on the pedals, a few decent pushed and acceleration is instant and also maintained, requiring very little to continue on at a good speed. It climbs ridiculously well, and is almost effortless to hold a decent speed on the flat. I don't feel I have to work anywhere near as hard to get motion out of the bike, and the frame just feels so efficient, as if it is not wasting any of my limited watts.

I have wheelsmith wheels on there now which have improved things further, but it was still night and day before I changed my wheels, and I just think the aero carbon frame vs the low end aluminium is a huge difference.

shmooster

You can get Fulcrum 3s for £275 vs Zondas for £248 on Wiggle at the moment. Quite tempted to upgrade from my Fulcrum 5s as they're getting a bit worn.