New Bike?

drewesq

I already have a cross ('Dale CAAD X) and while I really like it I do wonder if I would perfom better (in good conditions) on a pure road bike... I have seen for sale near me a Felt Z85 and it is a beaut! it has 105s and is the right size for nearly half the price of this year's model.

I am at the stage where I am starting to want to do bigger distances (60 miles+) and I wonder if a bike like this would be a worthy purchase or should I just stick with what I have?!

NB. I remember there is a N+1 formula which dictates that you always need 1 more bike than you currently own...?!

w00dster

Sounds like you've convinced yourself already.
A cross bike is fine for distance rides, I use mine regularly for 60+ mile rides. It's a bit tougher up hills than my light weight carbon bike, but still good fun. Decent semi slick tyres might make a difference?
But if you want a new road specific bike, no harm in that.
I actually find my cross bike much more comfortable, but that's down to the low pressure I run in my 34c tyres. Not great for speed on the road, but still enjoyable.

drewesq

w00dster wrote:

Sounds like you've convinced yourself already.
A cross bike is fine for distance rides, I use mine regularly for 60+ mile rides. It's a bit tougher up hills than my light weight carbon bike, but still good fun. Decent semi slick tyres might make a difference?
But if you want a new road specific bike, no harm in that.
I actually find my cross bike much more comfortable, but that's down to the low pressure I run in my 34c tyres. Not great for speed on the road, but still enjoyable.

Hmmm, and they're the reasons I got a cross bike rather than a 'proper' roadie... I use Sammy Slick tyres and I like the way they allow me to cut across grassy shortcuts!

The Felt is a very pretty bike though!

I just wonder if I should probably focus on ability instead of buying a new bike, but that makes me sad!

LOL

simon_masterson

If you put road-appropriate tyres on it and the gearing is hard enough for you, the difference between a cx bike and a road bike is fairly small - but if you did that, it wouldn't be much good for cx, whilst not quite being a road bike either. I'd either keep it as a halfway house, or decide on one or the other, and buy a second bike. Since it seems a bit pointless to me to do the aforementioned conversion, the logical thing to do is n+1. Cycling is so much more fun on the best bike for the ride you're doing anyway.

ai_1

If I was you I'd stick with the CX bike for now and then if you really want a road bike later, splash out on something significantly higher end. This is what I did and in retrospect I still think it was the right way to go.
I used a Specialised Tricross for a little over 3 years. Initially I used it with mixed surface tyres on both roads and on rutted canal paths and the like. I got to like cycling and soon got bored with the few canal paths around and found I was exclusively on the road. So I bought a pair of 28mm slick road tyres. I was surprised how big a difference this made. The Tricross isn't really a full CX either, it's kindof a CX style hybrid. The CAAD X is probably an even better candidate for this approach.
Anyway, I ended up doing lots of sportives (longest was 200km), duathlons and adventure races on that bike and never felt it was really holding me back. The only negatives were that the bike was a little heavy and the cantilever brakes weren't fantastic.
Last year I bought a new road bike, a Canyon Ultimate CF 9.0. It's a carbon bike with full Ultegra groupset and decently light wheels. It weights about 3.5kg less than the Tricross did in road configuration. It's a lovely bike to ride and well worth getting, but I'm only noticeably faster when there's steep hills involved. Don't get me wrong, it's much nicer to ride in most circumstances but I think that's mostly because of it's weight, construction and wheels. It also seems more responsive and lively due to slightly different geometry but it might just be the weight and/or my imagination.
Incidentally, I'm doing a half Ironman in August so I've now set up the Tricross as a Tri-bike. Sounds a bit bonkers but it actually does the job remarkably well with a set of tri-bars and a forward offset seat post fitted!

Anyway, I suppose my suggestion is that you get a set of nice road tyres for teh CAAD X. This will give you 90% of the benefits of a road bike of similar quality. If you still want to do some off-road you could get a second set of wheels so you have one CX wheelset and one for the road. It's only a 3 minute job to switch back and forth. Of course if you're doing it regularly that might be a pain, so a separate road bike probably makes sense. Otherwise I'd replace the tyres, and put off the road bike purchase, then buy one that's significantly "nicer" than your CAAD X at a later date. Something like a set of Michelin Pro4 SC in size 25 or 28 would be very comfy and fast and there'll be plenty space for either on a cross bike.

drewesq

I hear what you're saying Ai_1 but, for me, it is more that just the weight and the tyres. I went out on a group cycle of about 50 miles (I cycled to the start point and home after which added on another 33 miles) and there were a few hills involved (Devon is well known for these, I suppose)! I found that the gearing of my CAAD held me back significantly on the hills. I have a 46/36 on the front and it wouldn't go low enough for me to stay in the saddle when climbing so I was burning up my quads my standing in my lowest gear. I think the CAAD does have it's place on cycle tracks which have a loose surface and in winter riding (the tyres give me more confidence) but if I am going to seriously improve my riding and average speeds I need a road bike. My feeling is now though that a Synapse 105 would probably be ideal as it has a 50/34 on the front as 11 speed on the back, plus lighter and road tyres. I think all these things together should add up to one big noticeable improvement.

I see you have done a 200KM sportive? That is pretty cool, my ride yesterday was 133KM which is my biggest distance so far, but I feel like I could do more...

simon_masterson

I'm guessing that your existing chainset will take a 34t? In all honesty though, you would do well to consider a triple if you want the lower gears. 11 speed can give you a 28t with a pretty closely spaced cassette.

ai_1

drewesq wrote:

....I found that the gearing of my CAAD held me back significantly on the hills. I have a 46/36 on the front and it wouldn't go low enough for me to stay in the saddle when climbing so I was burning up my quads my standing in my lowest gear...

... My feeling is now though that a Synapse 105 would probably be ideal as it has a 50/34 on the front as 11 speed on the back, plus lighter and road tyres. I think all these things together should add up to one big noticeable improvement...

I'm really not trying to talk you out of getting a new bike, but

The difference in low end gears between your CAAD X and the Synapse is only 2 teeth on the chainring. It's not negligible but it's not huge either. Of equal or more importance is what you have at the back. Going from 36 to 34 teeth with the same gear at the back will only change the ratio by a little over 5%. You'll notice it but I doubt it'll be enough to revolutionise your rides.
What do you currently have on the CAAD X? If you're using something like a 12-25 cassette then you could very cheaply and easily switch to something like an 11-28. That will make more than twice the difference you'd get by buying a new bike with a 50/34 but would cost maybe €20. Or perhaps €40 if you also buy a chainwhip and lockring nut so you can install it yourself (a 5 minute job - seriously).
If you really want a new bike anyway then go for it. But if you want to, you could almost certainly make your current bike do the job very well for a small amount of money. If you want to understand the options to do so, let us know what way it's currently set up... i.e. which groupset, what cassette, what wheels.

drewesq

OK, I think I am starting to understand a little more now...

My chainring is a 46/36 and the cassette is a 12-28. The wheels are maddux CX 2.1, I have no idea how these rate against other wheels but from what I have read they're fairly heavy but durable. The tyres are Sammy Slicks.

I am due a cassette and chain change anyway, so I have asked my bike guy about this and he has suggested going for a MTB cassette to give me 12-34 which should make it up the hills better... how does that sound?

I think you're all right though; buying a new bike probably isn't the answer. I do find mine comfortable which is good because that was why I bought it!

ai_1

drewesq wrote:

OK, I think I am starting to understand a little more now...

My chainring is a 46/36 and the cassette is a 12-28. The wheels are maddux CX 2.1, I have no idea how these rate against other wheels but from what I have read they're fairly heavy but durable. The tyres are Sammy Slicks.

I am due a cassette and chain change anyway, so I have asked my bike guy about this and he has suggested going for a MTB cassette to give me 12-34 which should make it up the hills better... how does that sound?

I think you're all right though; buying a new bike probably isn't the answer. I do find mine comfortable which is good because that was why I bought it!

The 12-34 might be overkill! It'll definitely get you up the hills more easily but might leave you with big gaps between gears. Is it a 9, 10 or 11 speed cassette?

Here's how the gearing works: 36 front and 28 back is 36/28 = 1.29 revs of the back wheel for every turn of the pedals. 34/28 = 1.21 which is a typical climbing road compact setup. A lower number allows you turn the pedals quicker but with less force for a given speed. Going up a hill this means the pedal force is reduced and you can either climb slower or pedal faster but will have the ability to stay in the saddle longer.

To get equal low end climbing gears to a 50/34 compact with 28 teeth at the back just requires 36/1.21 = 29.65 teeth at the back. Obviously can't have 0.65 of a tooth. But a 30 tooth sprocket paired with your 36 tooth chainring will give an easier climbing gear than most compact road bike set-ups. The 34 you propose would give 36/34= 1.06 gearing which should get you up just about anything. That doesn't mean it'll make you climb quicker! You still need to do the work but that may well allow you do it in the saddle rather than standing up.

A 12-32 might be a good compromise if you're not sure about the 12-34.
36/32 = 1.13 which is a pretty good ratio for most relative beginners unless the gradient is really steep or you're really heavy! My last bike was equipped with a triple 50/39/30 chainset and I put a 12-27 on the back giving me 30/27 = 1.11 gearing for the steepest climbs. That's very close to what you'd have with a 32 at the back of yours and it served me well for my first couple of years.

simon_masterson

Ai_1's advice I would agree with. Having gearing like that is great for MTB and CX, but you may find the gaps annoying on the road. To a certain extent your fitness will improve and you'll struggle with the hills less. The gears you have are low enough for most beginners (I think it's fair to say), even with fairly tough climbs to do. That might still mean that you struggle on them, of course - how 'serious' you are and how often you ride will obviously have an effect - and where you would place your cycling on the scale of 'suffering' to 'leisure'. Long term you would be happier with a triple - which would give you lower gears still.

By all means in the short term try a wider range cassette, particularly if your derailleurs can manage it (personally, I'm not sure I would bother if it meant changing). I would suggest going for a 34t inner ring too - assuming your chainset is a standard compact?

ai_1

Simon Masterson wrote:

Ai_1's advice I would agree with. Having gearing like that is great for MTB and CX, but you may find the gaps annoying on the road. To a certain extent your fitness will improve and you'll struggle with the hills less. The gears you have are low enough for most beginners (I think it's fair to say), even with fairly tough climbs to do. That might still mean that you struggle on them, of course - how 'serious' you are and how often you ride will obviously have an effect - and where you would place your cycling on the scale of 'suffering' to 'leisure'. Long term you would be happier with a triple - which would give you lower gears still.

By all means in the short term try a wider range cassette, particularly if your derailleurs can manage it (personally, I'm not sure I would bother if it meant changing). I would suggest going for a 34t inner ring too - assuming your chainset is a standard compact?

Yes, if the derailleur needs changing it might make more sense to try and get away with a chainring change. You could go with the normal compact 34 tooth small ring or, since your big ring is 46t, you could go smaller. If I'm not mistaken, there are two limitations on chainring size. One is the difference in number of teeth between large and small rings. This is 16 for most Shimano groupsets. So 50/34 and 52/36 are both on the limit but you could go as small as 30 for the small chainring since the big is only 46. However, I think there's a second limitation due to the spider (the bit the chainrings are bolted to that attaches them to the cranks). I don't know what the minimum size chainring that can be mounted on a compact spider. I think 33 is okay as I've seen them mentioned. I don't know if you can go smaller. If you can, then consider a 31 or 32, but even if 33 is the smallest possible it may be a good alternative to a cassette replacement. It would leave you with reasonable gaps and get you a 1.18 ratio (which is better than the standard 50/34 with 11-28 road setup we mentioned earlier that gets you 1.21). A small chainring shouldn't be too expensive either and, like a cassette, it could easily be changed back later if you wanted.

drewesq

Wow! My head hurts after reading all that! I'm now starting to think I should leave the cassette as standard and just admit my fitness will improve with more practice. Maybe I've been looking for a mechanical solution to a physical problem?!

I don't think I want to sacrifice top end for a break when climbing. I'm surprised Cannondale didn't put full Tiagra on this bike instead of the FSA chainring, maybe they did it to cut costs?! I like how my bike rides now, just wanted a bit of help up hills, but maybe I should keep it as is and just work on my fitness?

I don't think my bike guy will be able to advise, he'll just do what I ask him, so I'll probably need you guys to help me make the right decision!

Thanks

ai_1

drewesq wrote:

Wow! My head hurts after reading all that! I'm now starting to think I should leave the cassette as standard and just admit my fitness will improve with more practice. Maybe I've been looking for a mechanical solution to a physical problem?!

I don't think I want to sacrifice top end for a break when climbing. I'm surprised Cannondale didn't put full Tiagra on this bike instead of the FSA chainring, maybe they did it to cut costs?! I like how my bike rides now, just wanted a bit of help up hills, but maybe I should keep it as is and just work on my fitness?

I don't think my bike guy will be able to advise, he'll just do what I ask him, so I'll probably need you guys to help me make the right decision!

Thanks

Well the top end won't be effected unless you either change the big chainring or the small sprocket, neither of which are what we're suggesting. I'm guessing you use the big ring most of the time on the flat too? In which case you won't change much at all by reducing the small chainring.

The bolts for mounting compact chainrings are on a 110mm bolt centre diameter (BCD)
If you go to a webshop that sells chainrings like Spa cycles and look for chainrings with a 110 BCD you'll find out what's available teeth wise. 34, 33, 32, 31 or 30, as per my last post

ai_1

I just had a quick look but 33t was the smallest I could see for 5 bolt 110mm BCD. This would certainly help on the hills. You'll need to make an educated guess whether it'll give you what you want.

http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php ... 0s113p1964

hanhamreds

I've not read all this thread but I noticed you mentioned the Felt Z85 - I have this bike and apart from a few spokes coming loose it's been great.

1178.7 miles so far, it's recently had a new chain fitted and I changed the 11-32 cassette for a 11-25.

it's a very comfortable bike, I'm 5ft 11" and bought the 54cm for £664.30 from Wiggle Sept last year.


it even comes with Touch up paint!!!!

drewesq

hanhamreds wrote:

I've not read all this thread but I noticed you mentioned the Felt Z85 - I have this bike and apart from a few spokes coming loose it's been great.

1178.7 miles so far, it's recently had a new chain fitted and I changed the 11-32 cassette for a 11-25.

it's a very comfortable bike, I'm 5ft 11" and bought the 54cm for £664.30 from Wiggle Sept last year.


it even comes with Touch up paint!!!!

Wow, thanks for the post!!

That's interesting, I'm 5'11" and I would've bought the 56cm... :S

Would you say it was more 'racey' or more 'sportive'?

Thanks

hanhamreds

drewesq wrote:

hanhamreds wrote:

I've not read all this thread but I noticed you mentioned the Felt Z85 - I have this bike and apart from a few spokes coming loose it's been great.

1178.7 miles so far, it's recently had a new chain fitted and I changed the 11-32 cassette for a 11-25.

it's a very comfortable bike, I'm 5ft 11" and bought the 54cm for £664.30 from Wiggle Sept last year.


it even comes with Touch up paint!!!!

Wow, thanks for the post!!

That's interesting, I'm 5'11" and I would've bought the 56cm... :S

Would you say it was more 'racey' or more 'sportive'?

Thanks

5'11'' was the max recommended height for the 54cm frame - but it was right for me - perfect fit.

Bike geometry does vary - my Boardman is a so called medium and I have to shorten the stem by 40cms!


the Felt is a Sportive geometry

simon_masterson

hanhamreds wrote:

Bike geometry does vary - my Boardman is a so called medium and I have to shorten the stem by 40cms!

Bike geometry does vary - but that's all the more reason to know what dimensions you're really looking for. The height guidelines can be helpful, but they're a starting point at most. Depending on what you want to do with the bike (eg. leisure riding vs racing), there might be as many as 3 sizes of the same bike that might be appropriate for you.

dj58

As Ai_1 suggests, the quickest/easiest way to lower the gearing on your dale is to fit the 33T inner ring to your 46/36T CX chainset with your 12-28 cassette, try that before you buy the new chain/cassette. If that is not low enough, fit a new CS-4600 12-30 cassette, assuming you are using a 10sp setup.