Accident

mattitheowl

I've just been knocked off by a car and not sure what my next course of action should be.

I was riding in a cycle lane and the guy turned left and wiped me off (I went over the back of his car thankfully and not under it). My bike seems OK but it's carbon so I can't be 100%.

I'm a bit battered and bruised more than anything and have a very stiff shoulder and painful neck muscles. I've not been up to A&E yet but might if I don't feel better in a bit.

My real question is what do I do next? I'm insured through British cycling and the guy's car was fine, but I'm concerned my bike might have some hidden damage and I'm hurt. Do I make a claim or just leave it be?

ugo.santalucia

Claim and inform the police, always!

mattitheowl

What do I inform the Police? Should I have rung from the scene of the accident?

ugo.santalucia

mattitheowl wrote:

What do I inform the Police? Should I have rung from the scene of the accident?

Call the local police and inform them of what happened. They have a duty to record the accident...

964cup

BC's legal service is excellent - get in touch with them on Monday and they'll take you through it all. Be aware that the driver's insurance company will wiggle like greased pigs to try to get out of paying out, so witnesses or other evidence is crucial. Get the bike fully checked out at Carbon Bike Repair or a similar specialist (costs about £50) - carbon damage can be hard to spot. You can claim for bike & components, clothing, injuries and additional costs - e.g. travel costs if you normally commute by bike.

mattitheowl

Thanks 964Cup. Unfortunately the only witnesses would have been in the car behind and they didn't stop.

I'm sure he'll try and deny any liability (he tried at the roadside) but in all honesty I just don't think he saw me. His argument was "I was indicating" but he obviously didn't check his left side as I was riding just behind him for about 300 yards. He then just swung off the road, across the cycle lane and into the car park leaving me nowhere to go.

ugo.santalucia

mattitheowl wrote:

... as I was riding just behind him for about 300 yards.

As an aside, You were riding too close for too long... bad practice, you basically put yourself in a dangerous position on the road... an accident waiting to happen and it did happen... in the future keep a distance, drivers behaviour is not always predictable, or sensible

mattitheowl

I couldn't the traffic was only moving at 20mph so I was just riding at the speed of the traffic flow. If I'd have dropped off I would have just been in the same situation with the cars behind. The guy indicated about 30 yards before the junction and just turned without slowing. I was in the cycle lane and had nowhere to go.

sloppyschleckonds

mattitheowl wrote:

I've just been knocked off by a car and not sure what my next course of action should be.

I was riding in a cycle lane and the guy turned left and wiped me off (I went over the back of his car thankfully and not under it). My bike seems OK but it's carbon so I can't be 100%.

I'm a bit battered and bruised more than anything and have a very stiff shoulder and painful neck muscles. I've not been up to A&E yet but might if I don't feel better in a bit.

My real question is what do I do next? I'm insured through British cycling and the guy's car was fine, but I'm concerned my bike might have some hidden damage and I'm hurt. Do I make a claim or just leave it be?

Pictures or it never happened

mattitheowl

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

mattitheowl wrote:

I've just been knocked off by a car and not sure what my next course of action should be.

I was riding in a cycle lane and the guy turned left and wiped me off (I went over the back of his car thankfully and not under it). My bike seems OK but it's carbon so I can't be 100%.

I'm a bit battered and bruised more than anything and have a very stiff shoulder and painful neck muscles. I've not been up to A&E yet but might if I don't feel better in a bit.

My real question is what do I do next? I'm insured through British cycling and the guy's car was fine, but I'm concerned my bike might have some hidden damage and I'm hurt. Do I make a claim or just leave it be?

Pictures or it never happened

This is me before -

And me after

Sutton_Rider

If you saw him indicate 30 yrd before he turned why didn't you stop or at least slow down, give him room to make his error. Its called 'Defensive Riding'. Anyway glad your basically OK and hope there's nothing wrong with the bike.

ugo.santalucia

mattitheowl wrote:

The guy indicated about 30 yards before the junction and just turned without slowing

TBH you are as much on the wrong as he is, by your own words... 30 yards is miles... you should have slowed down and give him way...

mattitheowl

I grabbed the brakes but obviously his were a bit better! I went from 2 yards behind him to half a wheel up his rear quarter. He turned across me and took my wheel out.

In the situation it was impossible to leave any distance as I had a car half a car length behind and the guy who hit me just in front. I'd been overtaken by numerous cars along the road as it's stop start due to numerous lights. He just didn't look. He even said he never saw me.

Cycling Caesar

Would get yourself down to a doctor so you have record of your injuries.

ugo.santalucia

mattitheowl wrote:

I grabbed the brakes but obviously his were a bit better! I went from 2 yards behind him to half a wheel up his rear quarter. He turned across me and took my wheel out.

In the situation it was impossible to leave any distance as I had a car half a car length behind and the guy who hit me just in front. I'd been overtaken by numerous cars along the road as it's stop start due to numerous lights. He just didn't look. He even said he never saw me.

Just because you went down, doesn't mean he's to blame. If he indicated well in advance, as you said he did, I don't understand why you didn't slow down and keep an eye on him...

Bad description of the events or bad riding... one or the other

mattitheowl

OK I'll try and explain it better.

Riding on a main road with a bike lane and 4 sets of traffic lights in half a mile.

Traffic is only moving at about 20mph. I'm doing about 15-20mph. Cars are overtaking me slowly (I'm in a bike lane so they don't need to give me any extra space).

One car has just gone past me and we're doing the same speed, I'm about a yard behind him. I glance across to his lights and notice he's braking. So I brake. He then indicates and within a couple of seconds pulls left, without slowing down, giving me nowhere to go and leaving me rolling across his boot lid.

I'm all for defensive riding but I was in a bike lane with a solid white line.

At 20mph it takes about 3.5 seconds to cover 30 meters. I can't stop my bike from 20mph in 3.5 seconds, especially with reaction time in there.

The guy had passed me only a 30 seconds or so earlier so for him to say he hadn't seen me is worrying.

ForumNewbie

When I commute I use a new cycle lane for the last few miles, and I am concerned that a similar situation will arise where a car might turn left in front of me. I have some sympathy with the OP as even if you were to see a car indicating as it passed you, you would hope that the car driver has seen you and waited till you continued straight on in the cycle lane before turning left. However if I saw a car indicating and slowing to turn I would slow down, and only continue on if I was sure the car was waiting for me to pass before it turned.

It makes me think I was safer before the cycle lane was put in when I would be on the road. A car would then have to pull out to pass me before it turned, so less likely to turn left in front of me without seeing me.

ugo.santalucia

mattitheowl wrote:

I glance across to his lights and notice he's braking. So I brake. He then indicates and within a couple of seconds pulls left, without slowing down, giving me nowhere to go and leaving me rolling across his boot lid.

I am sorry, but I think you want to convince yourself that you are right... if he was braking, how come he was not slowing down?
You saw the indicator, you saw the braking lights, what were you doing one metre behind the car?

When you have an accident it's difficult to be rational, but you have to be when you talk to the insurance... your story is not very convincing

mattitheowl

ugo.santalucia wrote:

mattitheowl wrote:

I glance across to his lights and notice he's braking. So I brake. He then indicates and within a couple of seconds pulls left, without slowing down, giving me nowhere to go and leaving me rolling across his boot lid.

I am sorry, but I think you want to convince yourself that you are right... if he was braking, how come he was not slowing down?
You saw the indicator, you saw the braking lights, what were you doing one metre behind the car?

When you have an accident it's difficult to be rational, but you have to be when you talk to the insurance... your story is not very convincing

I was in the bike lane. He obviously touched his brake but didn't slow down.

I'm pretty sure that if you are crossing a bike lane you have to make sure it's clear before you pull across it! It's an indicator, not a magic wand.

If I'd have had chance to stop having seen him indicate do you not think I would have? He'd just overtaken me. I fail to see where I could have gone?

ugo.santalucia

It's entirely possible the insurance will just pay what there is to pay, as well as it is entirely possible that the driver, just like you, thinks he's in the right and things might drag a bit further.

Based on your description, I'd say it's 50/50 shared responsability.... he did not see you, you did not see him.. .although you said you did see both the indicator and the brake lights... best to pretend you didn't

diy

There are several decided cases which have ruled that there is no 'right of way' for cyclists in a cycle lane. In addition if the driver was turning in to a side road, then there is a further expectation that the car might turn left.

I think worse case its 50/50 - still means 50% will be covered and his insurers will want to act quick.

I know we think of cycle lanes as a lane, but they don't seem to have been treated as lanes like other lanes.

In liability it will likely be seen that you were too close to the car in front. You have to watch out on side roads - I appreciate there are so many, it can become easy to miss them, but its those that will catch you out. Filtering motorcyclist have the same issue.

Better to merge in at junctions if you can.

bompington

diy wrote:

There are several decided cases which have ruled that there is no 'right of way' for cyclists in a cycle lane.

I must admit I wasn't aware of this - it certainly didn't seem to apply when the driver who wiped me out a few years ago by driving into the cycle lane got hammered by my lawyers. Can you point to some references?

diy

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2002/1848.html

Key facts:
- vehicle always ahead
- expectation of awareness of possibility of turn.
- failure to look before making the turn.

As with most court of appeals, the claims are big and the injuries serious, so there are often plenty of witnesses.

If a car overtakes you and turns left its a slam dunk on them, if they are slow moving and you sail on up the inside as if on a different road due to your "cycle lane" then 1 expect someone to knock you off who hasn't looked and 2 expect to pick up some blame.

LORD JUSTICE KENNEDY wrote:

any cyclist who is taking reasonable care for his own safety knows that any vehicle turning left ahead of him will endanger him and he should therefore keep a particularly careful look-out.

Here we do not have any witnesses - which is why I said worse case 50%

With regard to notifying the police - There is some confusion as to why, who and when you do this.. Its only if they haven't provided all the required information that this is necessary - contrary to some of the plod websites which say otherwise. Its also only the duty of the driver to do this.

mattitheowl

ugo.santalucia wrote:

It's entirely possible the insurance will just pay what there is to pay, as well as it is entirely possible that the driver, just like you, thinks he's in the right and things might drag a bit further.

Based on your description, I'd say it's 50/50 shared responsability.... he did not see you, you did not see him.. .although you said you did see both the indicator and the brake lights... best to pretend you didn't

I did see him, I saw him overtake me then turn left on me.

Surely I can't be expected to vanish in 3 seconds?

If I hadn't been in the cycle lane I wouldn't have been hit because I'd have been riding behind him and had better visibility and ability to move around him.

As it was I was placed in a bike lane, somewhere cyclists have priority, like the pavement for pedestrians. If you were walking on the pavement and someone turned left and ran you over, is it your fault? Pedestrians have right of way on the pavement as cyclists do in a cycle lane. You have to check it's clear before you cross it.

bompington

Yes, but:

The Judges wrote:

The judge found that the first defendant i]i.e. the driver[/i was nevertheless at fault because he turned into the garage and crossed the dedicated cycle lane without checking first to ensure that it was safe to do so, either by looking in his wing mirror or, if there was a blind spot, waiting until he was able to check. The critical omission was the failure to check again before he started to turn. Paragraph 122 of the Highway Code required traffic crossing a cycle lane to give way to traffic using it.

diy

mattitheowl wrote:

As it was I was placed in a bike lane, somewhere cyclists have priority, like the pavement for pedestrians. If you were walking on the pavement and someone turned left and ran you over, is it your fault? Pedestrians have right of way on the pavement as cyclists do in a cycle lane. You have to check it's clear before you cross it.

Logic would agree with you, but the courts have been reluctant to rule like that.

If of course you are now clarifying that it was more a case that he was passing you, turned with minimal warning and failed to check, then its a different situation.

Hopefully nobody would be daft enough to suggest you falsified the facts of your claim - particularly those using their real name. :?

bompington wrote:

Yes, but:

The Judges wrote:

..Paragraph 122 of the Highway Code required traffic crossing a cycle lane to give way to traffic using it.

Its not a "But" its why the driver has half the responsibility.

ugo.santalucia

diy wrote:

Hopefully nobody would be daft enough to suggest you falsified the facts of your claim - particularly those using their real name. :?

To me the OP is still in two minds about that... whether he does not recall properly or he is still a bit confused remains to be seen...

Has he seen the brake lights and the indicator... apparently 30 yeards before the turn?

Yes: then why on earth he did not slow down and be extra cautios? 30 yards is miles, most people indicate 5-10 yards before the turn

No: then he might be at fault for not paying attention or the driver did not indicate...

I have cars undercutting me like that on a daily basis... none of them indicate a left turn, because when/if they do, I am nowhere near them

mattitheowl

ugo.santalucia wrote:

diy wrote:

Hopefully nobody would be daft enough to suggest you falsified the facts of your claim - particularly those using their real name. :?

To me the OP is still in two minds about that... whether he does not recall properly or he is still a bit confused remains to be seen...

Has he seen the brake lights and the indicator... apparently 30 yeards before the turn?

Yes: then why on earth he did not slow down and be extra cautios? 30 yards is miles, most people indicate 5-10 yards before the turn

No: then he might be at fault for not paying attention or the driver did not indicate...

I have cars undercutting me like that on a daily basis... none of them indicate a left turn, because when/if they do, I am nowhere near them

I don't think you know how far 30 yards is. At 20mph, that's 3.5 seconds. If someone indicated 5 yards before turning that would be about half a second!

Count to 3 and now tell me you could register an indicator, get on the brakes and slow down enough to not get hit!

My Garmin does the 1 second refresh and shows I went 18.4, 17.7, 17.4, 12.8, 0.

I had no choice in how far behind the car I was because I was in a bike lane.

ugo.santalucia

mattitheowl wrote:

I don't think you know how far 30 yards is. At 20mph, that's 3.5 seconds. If someone indicated 5 yards before turning that would be about half a second!

Count to 3 and now tell me you could register an indicator, get on the brakes and slow down enough to not get hit!

My Garmin does the 1 second refresh and shows I went 18.4, 17.7, 17.4, 12.8, 0.

I had no choice in how far behind the car I was because I was in a bike lane.

I am trying to be helpful, so if you think I am just annoying, please say so and I will stop.


The problem is the driver did not acknowledge his mistake, which leaves the situation a bit messy, in the hands of insurances and maybe even lawyers. You need to recall the accident and try to avoid contraddicting yourself.
You saw the indicator, but did not have the time to stop? Fine, but I would avoid saying things like "I saw the brake lights" and then "the car didn't slow down", as clearly they do contraddict each other...

Basically your defence has to be made of facts, not assumptions

Origami02

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

mattitheowl wrote:

I've just been knocked off by a car and not sure what my next course of action should be.

I was riding in a cycle lane and the guy turned left and wiped me off (I went over the back of his car thankfully and not under it). My bike seems OK but it's carbon so I can't be 100%.

I'm a bit battered and bruised more than anything and have a very stiff shoulder and painful neck muscles. I've not been up to A&E yet but might if I don't feel better in a bit.

My real question is what do I do next? I'm insured through British cycling and the guy's car was fine, but I'm concerned my bike might have some hidden damage and I'm hurt. Do I make a claim or just leave it be?

Pictures or it never happened

This is a very valid point and a strong argument for a helmet cam . That said, what's happened has happened, so you may as well just report it to the police and your insurers, and let them decide.
It's not an un-kown phenomenon for cars to overtake a cyclist too close to a junction then turn left, effectively out-braking the bike. The driver can hardly argue he didn't know you were there as he'd just passed you. He should have been checking his nearside mirror when turning across a cycle lane regardless.
Best not let anyone add insult to injury by wasting too much of your time in debate over it.

mattitheowl

ugo.santalucia wrote:

mattitheowl wrote:

I don't think you know how far 30 yards is. At 20mph, that's 3.5 seconds. If someone indicated 5 yards before turning that would be about half a second!

Count to 3 and now tell me you could register an indicator, get on the brakes and slow down enough to not get hit!

My Garmin does the 1 second refresh and shows I went 18.4, 17.7, 17.4, 12.8, 0.

I had no choice in how far behind the car I was because I was in a bike lane.

I am trying to be helpful, so if you think I am just annoying, please say so and I will stop.


The problem is the driver did not acknowledge his mistake, which leaves the situation a bit messy, in the hands of insurances and maybe even lawyers. You need to recall the accident and try to avoid contraddicting yourself.
You saw the indicator, but did not have the time to stop? Fine, but I would avoid saying things like "I saw the brake lights" and then "the car didn't slow down", as clearly they do contraddict each other...

Basically your defence has to be made of facts, not assumptions

"Sorry mate, I never saw you" seems like acknowledging a mistake to me.