Steel or titanium

antonyfromoz

My lovely wife is buying me a new road bike to replace my alu-carbon Via Nirone and I have been considering a titanium bike from Van Nicholas, probably the Ventus but possibly the Chinook. One other possibility is a steel bike along the lines of the Genesis Volare, probably the 40 in 853. I tend to ride a combination of long rides (done Bergen - Voss three times and doing the Sharpener this May, long term plan to do the Fred Whitten too) and triathlon/duathon rides of up to 40 kms but these are not taken too seriously. I like to ride fast and I tend to push myself whatever type of riding I am doing.

I realise that there will be a weight penalty with the steel frame over titanium but I would appreciate it if anyone has any comments from riding these bikes that might be relevant to me too.

tlw1

Try the bikes before you make a decision

LegendLust

What about stainless steel?

antonyfromoz

Thank you for your answers. I have tried the Ventus, albeit fitted with SRam apex, which i didn't really like that much. The bike felt good and I could really feel that titanium spring when I rode it over some tree-root distorted paving at speed. My only concern is that it might be a bit too flexible if I am speeding down a mountain one day. There do seem to be a lot of happy riders though... The Chinook is meant to be more of a stiffer sprinters frame so perhaps it's not so springy but nobody has them in stock to try. I would also need to travel to try the Genesis so this is why i am seeking feedback to guage if this is worthwhile.

banditvic

Have had about 6 different Titanium bikes but always preferred my Cannondale Evo for handling and comfort.
Just purchased a Titanium Pickenflick from Planet X with Sram Rival 22 and Hydraulic brakes absolutely fantastic ride, this is a cyclocross bike, but I have fitted a Compact Chainset and some Novatec lightweight wheels. The confidence and control the hydro brakes give you is superb, also running 28mm tyres.

indyjones

banditvic wrote:

Have had about 6 different Titanium bikes but always preferred my Cannondale Evo for handling and comfort.
Just purchased a Titanium Pickenflick from Planet X with Sram Rival 22 and Hydraulic brakes absolutely fantastic ride, this is a cyclocross bike, but I have fitted a Compact Chainset and some Novatec lightweight wheels. The confidence and control the hydro brakes give you is superb, also running 28mm tyres.

Interesting. I have been very much looking at the pickenflick looks like a stonking deal. Interesting to see you are running a compact chainset on it as I thought they were designed for MTB chainsets ?

thespanishadam

I can certainly say the Chinook is certainly on the stiffer side for titanium, great for short sprints. Having also tried one of the original Planet X ti jobbies. I was more sold by the nearly horizontal top tube with the Van Nicholas plus a good LBS to do a bike fit etc. I must have had mine nearly 4 years now, still can't find anything that I would want to replace it with. Instead keeping on swapping out components.

I am in South East London should you want to take it for a spin...

alan_sherman

Do you like paint? If so get a steel bike. If not, get a titanium one!

I hate paint scratches on stuff so a brushed Ti bike is perfect for me. No scratches, no rust. I have an Enigma Esprit. Can you get to Fat Birds as they are the purveyor af most brands of Ti goodness?

Personally I'd get disc if buying now too.

drlodge

953 is a good alternative to titanium, being stainless you *could* get someone to leave it bare I assume.

antonyfromoz

thank you all for your suggestions. The issue with 953 is the price and the stiffness of the frame - I have been told that 853 would be more comfortable on the long rides while being stiffer than titanium. The Chinook sounds like it might be a good alternative if it provides a stiffer frame but with the comfort of titanium too.

The Cannondale supersix evo has also been recommended to me a couple of times now...

drlodge

Don't understand your remark about 953 and stiffness of the frame. Frame stiffness comes in the selection of tubes, geometry etc, expect it would feel just the same as an 853 frame (all things being equal) just a tad lighter. But yes, they aren't cheap.

antonyfromoz

sorry about that comment - its just that i was discussing the differences between the genesis stainless volare and the 853 version and that was the advice I was given. The stainless version is not Reynolds steel now so I don't know how it compares with 953. According to the Genesis website the 853 is 8.9kg and the stainless 8.8kg, although the wheels and groupsets differ.

ugo.santalucia

antonyfromoz wrote:

sorry about that comment - its just that i was discussing the differences between the genesis stainless volare and the 853 version and that was the advice I was given. The stainless version is not Reynolds steel now so I don't know how it compares with 953. According to the Genesis website the 853 is 8.9kg and the stainless 8.8kg, although the wheels and groupsets differ.

It's very honest of them to publish some real world weights, as opposed to the mountain of nonsense you typically read on the web, where every bike seems to be 6.5 Kg these days.

I think the comfort you seek willbe down to a good fit and frame geometry, the material has very little bearing in the matter. Both titanium and stainless are considered wonder materials, like pretty much anything which is boutique... if you are not the sort of person who buys into numbers that do not exist when tested in the real world, then get the one with the best geometry for you or the one you like best

drlodge

Probably comfort will have more to do with the wheels and tyres you fit ;-) My 953 is uber smooth, just the job for long rides. It weighs 8kg dead and I don't see how I could get it much lighter given the high end components on it.

I can heartily recommend a custom bike - not just because you get a bike that's unique and fits like a glove, but the whole experience is a great one assuming you engage with the right kind of people. A Rourke 853 would be a good bet, 953 is £££ and Ricky Feather has a waiting time longer than your arms and legs put together. Not sure what the difference in price would be between a Rourke 853 and something similar off the shelf, probably not a lot.

pauly69

I have a Ventus, although I'm running a much nicer spec than the SE Apex though. It's lovely.
I also have a 2015 Genesis Equilibrium Disc - 725 steel, genesis carbon fork.

They're both comfy, I've never had cause to complain about the (lack of) stiffness of the Ti, but then I'm not a racer. No way I would give it up, of the two there's no contest IMO.

antonyfromoz

thank you Pauly69, it is good to hear both that you have had no issues with the stiffness of the Ventus and that you feel it's a frame worthy of fitting with decent spec. I am looking at 105 at a minimum - i currently have 5600 105 but the new 105 has really impressed me when i have tried it.

luv2ride

I've tried a couple of VN bikes (euros, Ventus and whatever the frame was that came before the Ventus), albeit in Mallorca as hire bikes, but as the road surfaces generally seemed way better than anything in the UK was never sure whether it was the frame that made them feel so smooth. However, given the amount of riding I'm doing on my Kinesis Pro6 disc I think i would go On One Pickenflick with a spare set of wheels (one for tubeless knobblies, one for slick road) every day of the week. Am seriously thinking of going for a Pickenflick and selling on my Pro6 disk and Tifosi CK7 trainer as it would do both jobs brilliantly. Depends whether you're drawn to mixing n some bridle ways and singletrack as well as road I guess?

banditvic

My last Titanium bike was a VN Yukon didn't like the handling on it but it did have eyelets for mudguards, the Pickenflick is streets ahead of this, regarding the fitting of chainset I had previously heard that you couldn't fit a compact mine fits fine. I think there's room for a standard chainset, they must have changed the frame on these new ones. The only thing Planet X didn't do well was the routing of the hydraulic brake cables and they put joiners in the middle for some reason which looks dog.

sloppyschleckonds

All the Ti bike i've ridden seem pretty dull rides tbf fair

The VN Astraeus was ok, but certainly not worth £2k

Bordersroadie

Snap! My lovely wife bought me a new frame last year for a big birthday.

I had a choice of carbon, steel or Ti. My riding is similar to how you describe your own, plus TTs/hillclimbs.

I rode alu and steel bikes, plumped for a Ti frame and have not regretted it for a second.

I'm also glad I plumped for a custom handbuilt by Justin Burls, not a mass-produced in a factory big brand like VN. My Burls Ti is handmade by a small company in Russia. It weighs 1350g on a Park scale, fits me perfectly and costs less than any equivalent mainstream brand model.

It rides similarly to my old comfy 531c frame but is much more rigid when hoofing it. It's also considerably lighter.

For me it's a no brainer. It's not so much the overused cliché "bike for life" thing (to even suggest this brings on a flood of cracked Ti frame anecdotes so let's not go there...) but just a bike you can use and abuse and which will always look beautiful. I live down a stony farm track and the size of the rocks that regularly ding off my frame would have cracked a carbon and chipped the paint off a steel ages ago. It's also just the not fretting about the bike when you chuck it in the back of a van with other gear or lean it against a dry stone wall etc etc etc...

Good luck with whatever you go with!

xcMuttley

I absolutely love riding my Volare 853, but having never ridden titanium i couldn't give an honest comparison. I recently did a review on my blog of the volare: http://memylifeandmybike.blogspot.co.uk ... meset.html
I adore riding it and could never imagine having anything but lightweight steel. Im just not a big fan of carbon bikes full stop to be fair and steel is just sooo smooth.
Cant wait to see whatever you go with!

Brian B

I have the new style (2013 onwards)VN Astraeus and have to say its the best bike I have ever ridden. Its fast, comfortable and looks the dogs and have even been embarrassed at a café stop when other cyclists gathered round and started to say how good it looked. Never ridden other Ti bike so cannot comment but my bike certainly is not dull or flexible but very lively, stiff and just take out enough road buzz.

Years ago I got caught up in the carbon, super stiff/light frame and purchased a couple of Storck lightweight carbon frames and although they handled great and climbed/descended perfectly they were very uncomfortable over long distance which is what I do all the time.

Saying that I bought a Rose Alu frame two months ago and it is also great and much more comfortable than any alu frame I have had before.

I thought about steel but went for Ti as I liked the look of the polished metal. Good luck.

cycleclinic

I have both steel bikes (skinny tubed and larger diameter tubed) and a Ti Genesis bikes. All are very different and all are comfortable due to the fact they fit and the tyres. The lighter and larger diameter tubed Sannino and the Genesis Ti bike feel similarly quick to ride but they are both completely different.

you have to ride the bikes you are looking at. i like the genesis offerings but I would seriously consider the Ritchey logic if I ever broke the sannino.

I wonder how burls is managing to navigate geopolitics at present. it must be a headache for him.

jswba

I have a Sabbath Ti and a custom 853. I much prefer the 853. The frame's stiffness really makes a difference in terms of power transfer but it's more comfy than the Ti as a consequence of the wheels. In comparison the Ti feels spongier when accelerating. If there is a difference in weight it's minimal. I wouldn't hesitate to go for the steel if I had to choose one.

AndyK2479

I've just completed my Ti Burls build, only took it for a couple of 20 mile rides but I'm really impressed. It's designed on the geometry of my Scott CR1 and fits like a glove. I also treated myself to a fit with the Bike Whisperer as this Burls will be my 'main' bike for the next 5 years or so. Possibly

If you do decide on Ti, drop Justin Burls a email, I live close so spoke face to face but he's a great bloke to deal with.

mikenetic

One thing that's also worth considering is that if you travel a lot with your bike, or it's getting chucked in and out of cars then the finish on Titanium is going to look better for longer.

Normally Ti bikes are bare-metal, and they are pretty resistant to scratching etc. There's no paint to chip or scrape. If you do mark the surface you can normally matt it or polish back to the original look, with a bit of care.

antonyfromoz

thank you all for your input, there are so many things to consider with a big purchase like this and I don't want to be suffering from buyer's remorse so this all helps. I have tried 4 times to get some additional information out of Genesis on their Volare range - like why is their Volare 853 racing frame heavier than their 725 Equilibrium frame (I can guess that this might be due to extra material being used to make the frame stiffer but the listed weight for the frame alone is 2.1 kgs according to their website, so it's a lot heavier than the similar offerings from Condor).

hypster

I had an Airborne Zeppelin (which became the Zephyr when Van Nicholas took over Airborne) which cracked at the bottom bracket weld replaced under warranty with a Zephyr by VN just inside 5 years old. The Zephyr lasted less than a year before that also went in the same place. VN agreed to replace that frame under warranty but suggested I try a Chinook which they said might be stiffer. That lasted less than three years before succumbing to the same BB crack. Another Chinook came my way and the good news is that didn't crack at the bottom bracket. The bad news is it cracked underneath the downtube where it met the head tube.

Having had enough of this I requested a replacement Zephyr which I sold on as new. The new owner took advantage of VN's warranty transfer scheme I understand by returning the frame to them for inspection.

I have to say though that Van Nicholas were great all through this although they did give me a bit of a hard time with the last warranty replacement and took several months doing it. I understand that VN have been taken over by Kona so this may have had something to do with it. Luckily I kept all my original documentation and emails with their promises on each warranty replacement so they didn't really have a leg to stand on.

The frames themselves rode really nicely although they were definitely more flexy than almost every other frame material I have ridden including steel, aluminium and carbon. I'm not a particularly powerful rider and never race but at 6' 4" I may have been pushing the limits of the frame material/geometry but that is pure speculation on my part. All the problems I had seemed to be down to welds failing which then tracked across the tube. The one nice thing about titanium IMO is that all the frames looked as new when I returned them and I used them as my main training bike in all seasons and don't particularly look after my bikes either.