Rotor 3D Lost End Cap

disgruntledgoat
disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
edited June 2015 in Workshop
I've somehow managed to lose the bearing pre-load cap from the non drive side of my Rotor 3D Cranks today, noticed a little bit of play in the BB so I went to tighten it up and noticed (after I'd rounded the hole a little with an 8mm allen key) there was no moving part there any more!

I went so far as to try and remove the crank, but theres still obviously load from the bolt (assuming its still in there!) as it won't come off.

So... Is that the whole thing gubbed? What's holing the crank on? How do I get it off?
"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

@gietvangent

Comments

  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    ignore all of the above... I've rounded out the preload nut! How the hell do I get that out?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • maddog 2
    maddog 2 Posts: 8,114
    edited April 2015
    cut two slots at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock with a hacksaw blade/file and then cut a piece of steel to act as a big screwdriver?

    That's what I'd do.
    Facts are meaningless, you can use facts to prove anything that's remotely true! - Homer
  • ellotreacle
    ellotreacle Posts: 76
    last time I came across this issue (FSA crank bolt not rotor), the only way i got it out was to use a hammer and flat head screwdriver that was the same width as the rounded slot, as the bolt is aluminium you can tap the screwdriver into the newly rounded section of the bolt and through the end, and then undo it just like a screw, just make sure you have already purchased a replacement bolt first. and make sure you are patient and tap, not hit or you may damaged something else.

    hope this helps.
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  • maddog 2
    maddog 2 Posts: 8,114
    one of the German sellers has spare bolts by the way, as I bought one the other day.
    Facts are meaningless, you can use facts to prove anything that's remotely true! - Homer
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    All good advice cheers. I'm going nowhere near it with a hammer as my SRM is on the other side!

    Will wait until the bearing is for sure gone and then find a decent mechanic to attempt
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • brettjmcc
    brettjmcc Posts: 1,361
    Velotech have spare bolts, they just don't have them on their site (they sent me one a few weeks back with an order. Give them a call and they can sort you out (I keep meaning to remove mine and measure it to see if I can source some elsewhere)
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  • cswitch
    cswitch Posts: 261
    surprised you've rounded it out. You know that the pre-load bolt doesn't need much tightening to create the sufficient pre-load. then just a little nip up once you've tightened the crank arm fixing bolt.
  • desweller
    desweller Posts: 5,175
    Obviously you loosened off the pinch clamp screws before you attempted to remove the preload cap...?
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  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    This whole sorry saga is a lesson in reading the instructions on your gear even if they didn't come with any (mine were replacements from SRM)

    1. I over tightened the pinch bolt on the crank so that needs replaced (50 buff for a new crank!)

    2. Being used to ultratorque, I over tightened the pre load nut and then rounded it trying to take it off again. Current solution is to take to a decent mechanic (of which there are fortunately an abundance nearby) and have him take a look. The 8mm allen key is only slipping a little so i'm confident a torx bit or such will work. If not, I'll ask him to cut slots/drill holes for a pin spanner. Velotech also want £15 for a new preload nut!
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Also, I take it Easy Outs wont work on a hollow bolt? This is the part.

    http://www.velotechservices.co.uk/shop/vclose2.asp?prd=113835&cat=7386000657
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Also, I take it Easy Outs wont work on a hollow bolt? This is the part.

    http://www.velotechservices.co.uk/shop/vclose2.asp?prd=113835&cat=7386000657

    Au contraire, the correct sized extractor would have that out in seconds! Looks like lovely soft alloy for the steel extractor to bite into
  • ravey1981
    ravey1981 Posts: 1,111
    Another option is to glue an old allen key into the hole using an epoxy resin. Hardens very quickly and the two will be permanently bonded.... then just wind it out.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Thanks guys... Couple of questions. How do I get the right sized extractor? The lovely soft metal is not in doubt.., Witness it rounding off on a wiggle allen key!

    As to the resin, I thought about doing something similar, but the issue is I've completely over tightened it and had 0 success with such gambits in the past!

    Advice?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Well this just got urgent... The cranks are now are now at right angles to each other. When will I learn?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • fearby
    fearby Posts: 245
    I have Rotor 3DF cranks and I don't think they have a cap on the non-drive side. There wasn't one on mine when I got the bike. Or it has dropped off on the first ride.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    fearby wrote:
    I have Rotor 3DF cranks and I don't think they have a cap on the non-drive side. There wasn't one on mine when I got the bike. Or it has dropped off on the first ride.

    I was told by the guys at SRM it only needed to be tightened a little. Then it loosened every single ride so I think that's why i "Campag tightened" it.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    It's in the hands of the mechanic now. Pray for my pina.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    This one is the gift that keeps on giving!

    mechanic was able to remove the bolt to take the chainset out, then I needed a new chainset. Installed that following the instructions from the Rotor video on youtube to only tighten the pre load nut a very little. 2 weeks later, I go to clean the bike and it's gone! Why they have it loosening forward is a mystery, but I'm sure there's a reason. I guess I was so scared of overtightening it again that I undertightened it!

    I've ordered another from Power to max (€8 as opposed to the £15 Velotech wanted!) and await it's arrival. Meantime, I must have been riding around without it for a few days, with no ill effects. However, once I removed the chainset to clean it and refit, the non-drive side crank keeps sliding along the spindle. Am I missing something, or should the pinch bolt be enough to keep it on the spindle until my new bolt turns up?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Actually thinking on, I may have the bolt from the FSA K Force set who's failure sparked this whole debacle. Would that fit?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • desweller
    desweller Posts: 5,175
    No guarantees. There is no standard for that part. Try it?

    You could put a length of stud through the crankshaft to take up the play with a couple of nuts and penny washers while you tighten the pinch screws.

    Remember that you're only taking up play! It's not like a headset where you will put a positive preload on the bearings, you only nip that end screw up until all the play is gone otherwise you will cause premature wear in the bearings.
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  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    DesWeller wrote:
    No guarantees. There is no standard for that part. Try it?

    You could put a length of stud through the crankshaft to take up the play with a couple of nuts and penny washers while you tighten the pinch screws.

    Remember that you're only taking up play! It's not like a headset where you will put a positive preload on the bearings, you only nip that end screw up until all the play is gone otherwise you will cause premature wear in the bearings.

    Waay ahead of you there. That's what wrote off the last one!

    Good idea about the preload setting. Would that also prevent the crank working loose until I can get a new nut?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • desweller
    desweller Posts: 5,175
    The end screw does not retain the crank. The pinch bolts retain the crank. If your pinch screws are currently tight then you do not need to think about replacing the end screw until you next come to remove and refit the crankset; the cranks will not come loose.
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  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    DesWeller wrote:
    The end screw does not retain the crank. The pinch bolts retain the crank. If your pinch screws are currently tight then you do not need to think about replacing the end screw until you next come to remove and refit the crankset; the cranks will not come loose.


    Then I presume I'm doing something wrong in tightening it then because it worked it's way out about 1/2 an inch in a 10M TT last night.

    Any advice?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • desweller
    desweller Posts: 5,175
    The crank is working it's way off the crankshaft?
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  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    DesWeller wrote:
    The crank is working it's way off the crankshaft?

    Correct. It was fine until I took it off to clean it. Replaced and noticed it was moving on a ride, replaced and moved the screw back to the "neutral" position (the one it comes in when it feels loose to turn, but is in fact closed) and it happened again, tightened screw one turn and it's still happening. The nut is still tight, as I can't slide it back on without loosening. I presume the secondary function of the pre load nut is to prevent this.

    Either that or I'm going to be calling SRM for a 3rd replacement!
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Happy end to this one, I found a shop about 5km away that is a "Rotor premium stockist", according to the Rotor website. They deny it but helped me anyway.

    Turns out the mechanic there used to work for Garmin-Cervelo when they were on Rotor and saw the same problem in their early days. The pre load nut has a secondary safety feature that prevents the NDS crank arm working loose under vibration and heavy load (oh, for example, Belgian roads/cobbles). It also has a habit of unscrewing itself! They noticed this when cranks started dropping off in their classics training rides.

    So, they didn't have a rotor bolt, but they took a shimano one that was slightly bigger and filed it down to size, greased and torqued everything up and loc-tited the bolt and all for free! Then ordered my Rotor bolt.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent

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