Shimano 6800 - How many gears can you get?

mugensi

Ive read reviews on 6800 and some people say they can use all gears (inc big/big and small/small combos - crosschaining) without any rubbing or ratlles. I can use all gears on the small ring without any noise/chain rub and all but the two largest cogs on the rear while on the big chanin ring. Trimming does ease the noise when in the second largest cog on the rear. I know that cross chaining is not advisable but there are times when the big/big combo is ideal for needs at that time and trying to get a similar ratio on the small chainring is a pain especially if its only for a short distance on a hill etc. I have tried adjusting the limit screws but its as good as i can get without throwing something else on the other end out of kilter to have a noise free big/big combo. Anyway I just thought i'd ask what other 6800 users are able to manage.

ai_1

Can't say I've ever tried big/big or small/small on mine because I don't think I have, but regardless, any response will have to take into account the bike it's installed on, the chainrings and the cassette in use. Surely the length of the chainstays and the diameters of the chainrings and sprockets will all effect this. Perhaps the BB type has an impact too (can this effect the chainline?)
I wouldn't think the fact that you've seen others say they can use big/big and small/small without difficulty necessarily means you can too.

Buckie2k5

i get slight big/big rub too with 6800, just call it a reminder you shouldnt be cross chaining.

philkeeble

Yep, on my Enigma Echo with 6800 I can get small/small with no rub, but can't get the two biggest cogs in the big ring without rub. And I'm an obsessive about gear train adjustment. It looks like this is normal. If I need big/big briefly, then I tolerate the rub, but not for long.

DavidJB

I taped 2 rear cogs together and now I have 44 gears.

Bozman

8 usable gears

Zerotails99

Nonsense. This is a thing of the past. When properly installed, top end (105 onwards) modern Drive trains allow cross chaining with no problems or rubbing. The margin of error is less than a mm so most mechanics can't be bothered getting it right.

964cup

All 22, with no rub. YMMV, depending on frame geometry. The shorter the chainstay, the more likely it is to rub when cross-chained.

mugensi

I played about with the settings on mine and I can now get all but the biggest cog when on big front chainring and all gears when on small chainring. I found toeing in the FD ever so slightly helped but another half mm and it rubs at the opposite end so I'm quite content for now to have 21 silent gears.

Bobbinogs

Just because you can doesn't mean you should! Riding big/big (crossing the chain) is frowned on for a number of valid reasons, particularly if grinding away up a hill for a length of time.

ayjaycee

I've got Tiagra 4600 10 Speed on my Allez and, although I don't think I have ever used all of them before now, I just did a quick test ride and find that I can get all 20 gears without any unusual noise. I know a lot of people turn their nose up at Tiagra but if my cheapo gearing can employ all 20 speeds then I would have thought that the least you could have expected of Ultegra is to be able to use all 22. As an aside, you should also be able to say the same of 105. I suspect any inability to do so is down to either poor set up or bent components.

Ben6899

So much nonsense in one thread.

dwanes

"Cross-chaining", as people call it, will cause very very little harm at all and no-body should be even concerned about it.

ayjaycee

Ben6899 wrote:

So much nonsense in one thread.

Ben, Such comments don't really add much to the thread - it might be interesting to know what 'nonsense' you are talking about and why you think it is so. If it's mine, I would like to know what you think I have got wrong and might even be able to treat it as a learning experience.

mugensi

Ben6899 wrote:

So much nonsense in one thread.

Particularly your unhelpful comment.

MisterMuncher

Hitting all 22, but I rarely cross chain. Front shift reliable and swift enough to negate any need to.

t4tomo

Ben6899 wrote:

So much nonsense in one thread.

I agree with Ben.
What is all this if you need to go big big? If you are running out of cogs going up a hill just do a double squeeze change. One of the wonders of this modern shimano kit is you can change both front and rear simultaneously.

ai_1

The only reason I'd ever be in big-big or small-small intentionally is if my front derailleur was stuck.
It's a bit pointless to worry about getting all gears available without chainrub when there's no circumstances under which it's worth doing. Front changes with 6800 are easy and reliable. Why avoid them?

markhewitt1978

Ai_1 wrote:

The only reason I'd ever be in big-big or small-small intentionally is if my front derailleur was stuck.
It's a bit pointless to worry about getting all gears available without chainrub when there's no circumstances under which it's worth doing. Front changes with 6800 are easy and reliable. Why avoid them?

They are still a bit of a pain on 6700, downshifting is ok, but upshifting can take a bit of effort. Which is why I'll go big big if I'm only going to be there for a minute or two to crest the next hill.

I used to use big big (50/30) as my favourite gear all the time but I've since realised that there's no shame in the little ring so I should use it!

dwanes

t4tomo wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

So much nonsense in one thread.

I agree with Ben.
What is all this if you need to go big big? If you are running out of cogs going up a hill just do a double squeeze change. One of the wonders of this modern shimano kit is you can change both front and rear simultaneously.

Why not big-big? If you are ploughing up a hill in the big ring, dropping to the small ring can result in a dropped chain no matter how well your front changer is set up. Sometimes if there is too much pedal force it won't drop down into the small ring at all. Modern shimano kit hasn't changed anything in this respect.
Either way, going big-big won't do any harm anyway.

Bobbinogs

Stick the gears in big-big and have a look at the chain line. Then work out where all the forces are going...should be enough to convince you to avoid big/big. Not only is it incredibly inefficient but the plates are being stressed laterally, which can greatly increase the chance of breakage under load (you really don't want that).

I once rode with a chap who used big-big quite a bit. At the cafe stop I remarked on this, his response was "Why do I need to worry about big-big, I've only broken a chain a few times in the last year". Yepp, hard to argue that one, eh!

Learn to read the road/your body better, double shift to change rings before you need to and be able to spin more if the pace allows before resorting to double shifting back to keep the momentum in the big ring after cresting.

trailflow

dwanes wrote:

Why not big-big? If you are ploughing up a hill in the big ring, dropping to the small ring can result in a dropped chain no matter how well your front changer is set up. Sometimes if there is too much pedal force it won't drop down into the small ring at all. Modern shimano kit hasn't changed anything in this respect.
Either way, going big-big won't do any harm anyway.

Wrong. Shimano have addressed this problem with the new 5800,6800,9000 FD's. Similar to the way Di2 functions. They use a 2 step downshift procedure when moving the chain onto the small ring which eliminates over shift and dropped chains. It works like a backwards trim. Click once to shift down. Then click it again to fully move the cage all the way across. If you are still droping chains with those FD's then it isnt set up properly. Plus you can always use a chain catcher for added security.

My drivetrain noise becomes alot more audible when using big/big. For me thats a sign not to do it.

Cross chaining probably isn't as bad now that most people use double rings compared to triples. But I definitely
see it putting more stress on the chain links now that they are narrower with 11 speed etc.

mugensi

I started the thread mainly to see if I have mine set up correctly, there are very few instances when I cross chain and in a way the chain rub prevents me from doing it and I'll drop a few gears on the rear and change to the small ring. I only asked as I had read other threads/reviews where people had said the trim feature prevented chain rub in any gear combination and that included cross chaining big/big combos. I actually find myself using the small ring more now as there seems a better spread of usable gears with 6800 than on the 5700 I had previously. I wasnt looking to adjust it so that I could use big/big combos but simply to know I had it set up correctly. Anyway I've done all the tweaking of it that I'm going to do and I'm more than happy with 6800, especially the FD which is super smooth and responsive in both directions.

Spatulala

Recently went from triple 5600 to compact 6800. I use 12 gears if I'm paying attention. More when I'm not.

elbowloh

Yep, can get all 22 on my setup (50/34 and 11/28 on a Felt F1) with no rub.

ayjaycee

I will admit to having very little experience (ie. none) of 'higher end' groupsets of any age but reading this thread really makes me wonder why some people are so disparaging of Tiagra. Mine (Tiagra 4600 with 50/34 at the front and 12-30 at the back) works flawelessly and very smoothly across the range and whilst I have never really felt the need to go big / big, I don't think I would hesitate if I felt that I had to.

I will have to try to sort myself out a ride on something with 105 and Ultegra to see how much better they are.

t4tomo - I had never given any thought to the idea that you might be able to change both front and rear at the same time but I tried it the other day and it really does work - pure genius for suggesting it. Just have to wait for a chance to use it in anger now.

ai_1

ayjaycee wrote:

I will admit to having very little experience (ie. none) of 'higher end' groupsets of any age but reading this thread really makes me wonder why some people are so disparaging of Tiagra. Mine (Tiagra 4600 with 50/34 at the front and 12-30 at the back) works flawelessly and very smoothly across the range and whilst I have never really felt the need to go big / big, I don't think I would hesitate if I felt that I had to.

I will have to try to sort myself out a ride on something with 105 and Ultegra to see how much better they are.

t4tomo - I had never given any thought to the idea that you might be able to change both front and rear at the same time but I tried it the other day and it really does work - pure genius for suggesting it. Just have to wait for a chance to use it in anger now.

Tiagra is absolutely fine. I've used last gen 9 speed Tiagra for years. It's heavier, has one sprocket less and is just a little less slick than Ultegra 6700 which I've also used but it works absolutely fine. The newer Ultegra 6800 is a significant improvement in terms of lever movement and shifting smoothness as I believe is the new 105. Besides, a well set up Tiagra groupset will outperform any badly set up groupset anyway.

Shimano do their updates in a cycle. Dura-Ace get's the new developments, about a year later Ultegra is updated to incorporate many of these, then 105, then Tiagra, then Sora. Of course the materials and manufacturing methods have to be simpler and cheaper moving down the tiers to keep the prices at their respective levels so there is a significant weight difference as you move from one tier to the next but functionality tends to be similar once you're on the same "generation".

mugensi

ayjaycee wrote:

I will admit to having very little experience (ie. none) of 'higher end' groupsets of any age but reading this thread really makes me wonder why some people are so disparaging of Tiagra. Mine (Tiagra 4600 with 50/34 at the front and 12-30 at the back) works flawelessly and very smoothly across the range and whilst I have never really felt the need to go big / big, I don't think I would hesitate if I felt that I had to.

I have 4600 on my winter bike and I love it, the FD action is nice and smooth and easy while shifting to the big chanin ring however is quite crude when changing down but it works faultlessly all the time every time. The rear gear changes are smooth and again faultless and like you I have a 50/34 and 12/30 set up and can use all 20 gears without any problem/noise/chainrub (although I do avoid cross chanining the majority of the time) but 6800 is in a different league, slicker, smoother, quieter with shorter lever action especially the FD shifter. 4600 has trim only on the small ring whereas 6800 has trim feature on both chain rings.

ayjaycee

All that you have said tells me that I really must try to get a ride on 105 and Ultegra equipped bikes to see for myself. If either are that much better (and I do not doubt anybody's word on it), I suspect that I just might get a bit of upgradeitis next year by replacing the whole groupset and going 11 speed. Only thing is that I will probably have to rely on a shop for the test rides as I am a bit of a Billy No Mates cyclist who does not belong to a club or, indeed, know any other 'proper' cyclists. With my willpower, going to my LBS and trying out a shiny new bike is probably a surefire way of spending a considerable amount of wonga and having to explain it to the Mrs afterwards. The length of that conversation would probably depend on how much I tell her I spent!

ai_1

ayjaycee wrote:

All that you have said tells me that I really must try to get a ride on 105 and Ultegra equipped bikes to see for myself. If either are that much better (and I do not doubt anybody's word on it), I suspect that I just might get a bit of upgradeitis next year by replacing the whole groupset and going 11 speed. Only thing is that I will probably have to rely on a shop for the test rides as I am a bit of a Billy No Mates cyclist who does not belong to a club or, indeed, know any other 'proper' cyclists. With my willpower, going to my LBS and trying out a shiny new bike is probably a surefire way of spending a considerable amount of wonga and having to explain it to the Mrs afterwards. The length of that conversation would probably depend on how much I tell her I spent!

Personally, as long a my existing groupset was working well, I wouldn't worry about whether there was another one that works better. I don't think I'd ever consider replacing the groupset unless I'd worn out the old one or if it just couldn't accommodate my needs (wrong chainring sizes, crank lengths, uncomfortable hoods) in which case I could probably just change individual components. It's entirely up to you and your priorities but I'd wait until I was getting a new bike. On the other hand, if you were dissatisfied with what you've got and you reckon it's not just a result of bad setup then a new groupset might be for you.