Bonking = lean body mass loss?
RutlandGav
Posts: 144
The past couple of months I've taken to cycling to work to loose weight.
Age 42
Height 5'10
Starting wt 98kg
It's 16 miles each way, so a bit of a stretch for a beginner - i used to cycle a lot when i was younger, and a couple of years ago got down from 18st to 15st by spending a lot of time on the crosstrainer at the gym, while watching movies. But i'd been inactive for at least 6 months.
Anyway, i started off riding 2 out of my 4 day on/4 day off 12 hour shift pattern rota, now i'm up to riding 3 out of the 4 days. Poor car is feeling unloved.
I get up, have a coffee, then finish off the newly opened pint of skimmed milk and set off. It takes 90 minutes on my heavy old mtb (like bike , like rider) then i get to work, have a sugary energy drink, do 90 minutes of work then have breakfast at canteen. lunch is also at the canteen, and i usually have a little snack before leaving - maybe a jacket potato or something (i know it sounds like a lot of food, these are 12 hour shifts before you count the cycling). I purchase a Yazoo milk shake to open in case of emergency on the way home.
When i started, i used to go into bonk very abruptly. 70 minutes in, got a through buzz going on, loving it, then start to notice a slight drunken feeling, then 10 minutes later i'm hallucinating and IQ has dropped to 30. Seems a more gradual process now.
Last Friday i took a detour home, felt myself fading a bit, but like most days, decided to save the emergency milkshake as a desert for my supper.
I live on top of a hill and i always assumed i wasn't fit enough to climb it easily. Well tonight, on a rest day, i went to the shops (car broke) and loaded the panniers up with food shopping. Whizzed up that hill with ease. Up till now i'd only climbed it at the end of my journey home, which had skewed my idea of how hard it is.
But that makes me worry i might be going into the "bonk zone" towards the end of my commute. Is that actually a good thing, ie. teaching my body to burn fat, building endurance, or is it going to cause lean body mass loss? As i understand it, when you run out of glycogen, your body breaks down amino acids - from your own muscles - to make up for what it can't get by burning fat alone.
Seem to be loosing a couple of pounds a week atm, and just had the paranoid thought that my calves look skinnier than i remember them. I need to be loosing the weight off my belly!
Perhaps i should stop on the way home and have that "emergency milkshake" after one hour and not try and save it, ditto on the way in, glug the energy drink at 1 hour and don't try save the caffeine rush for when i first arrive at my desk?
Age 42
Height 5'10
Starting wt 98kg
It's 16 miles each way, so a bit of a stretch for a beginner - i used to cycle a lot when i was younger, and a couple of years ago got down from 18st to 15st by spending a lot of time on the crosstrainer at the gym, while watching movies. But i'd been inactive for at least 6 months.
Anyway, i started off riding 2 out of my 4 day on/4 day off 12 hour shift pattern rota, now i'm up to riding 3 out of the 4 days. Poor car is feeling unloved.
I get up, have a coffee, then finish off the newly opened pint of skimmed milk and set off. It takes 90 minutes on my heavy old mtb (like bike , like rider) then i get to work, have a sugary energy drink, do 90 minutes of work then have breakfast at canteen. lunch is also at the canteen, and i usually have a little snack before leaving - maybe a jacket potato or something (i know it sounds like a lot of food, these are 12 hour shifts before you count the cycling). I purchase a Yazoo milk shake to open in case of emergency on the way home.
When i started, i used to go into bonk very abruptly. 70 minutes in, got a through buzz going on, loving it, then start to notice a slight drunken feeling, then 10 minutes later i'm hallucinating and IQ has dropped to 30. Seems a more gradual process now.
Last Friday i took a detour home, felt myself fading a bit, but like most days, decided to save the emergency milkshake as a desert for my supper.
I live on top of a hill and i always assumed i wasn't fit enough to climb it easily. Well tonight, on a rest day, i went to the shops (car broke) and loaded the panniers up with food shopping. Whizzed up that hill with ease. Up till now i'd only climbed it at the end of my journey home, which had skewed my idea of how hard it is.
But that makes me worry i might be going into the "bonk zone" towards the end of my commute. Is that actually a good thing, ie. teaching my body to burn fat, building endurance, or is it going to cause lean body mass loss? As i understand it, when you run out of glycogen, your body breaks down amino acids - from your own muscles - to make up for what it can't get by burning fat alone.
Seem to be loosing a couple of pounds a week atm, and just had the paranoid thought that my calves look skinnier than i remember them. I need to be loosing the weight off my belly!
Perhaps i should stop on the way home and have that "emergency milkshake" after one hour and not try and save it, ditto on the way in, glug the energy drink at 1 hour and don't try save the caffeine rush for when i first arrive at my desk?
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Comments
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Sounds like you just need a little extra fuel for the journey home , now you are fitter and faster. I use muesli bars on longer riders and only need a couple an hour along with drinking water to keep going. As long as you are eating normally otherwise just find out what suits you in ride.0
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Hi there and good luck !
I would say - your weight lose starts in the kitchen...yeah...5-6 regular meals, low carbs before bed time, high carb in the morning, spread them equally during your day and take it from there.
Regarding morning meal I would stick to some oats, fruits, honey, peanuts and/or eggs, veggies, brown toasts etc. Before you hit the road home after your work say 20-30min I would again eat something like oats / rice / fruits / honey / almonds etc. You can nicely mix a bit of oats / natural low fat yoghurt / some fruits (can be frozen) and add some almonds with honey - excellent and full of energy - 30min will be enough for your stomach to start to digest it and you should have enough energy for your journey home.
When you get back home (I believe it will be sometime in late afternoon / evening) get some proper meal i.e. fish / rice / veggies etc.; then as the last meal before bed time (say 1h before you go to sleep) get some low carbs meal i.e. protein shake etc.
You should really reduce you carbs in your meals as the day goes on...
As said before 'energy drinks' not very good - you say you take it when you get to work after your ride...I would go for some banana + peanuts + dark chocolate (a bit) also, what I do after my gym or post ride / mid ride snack is a homemade protein bars (PM me and I give you a very simple recipe - it takes 10-15min to prepare and you will get enough protein bars for 1,5 week !!!).
A coffee in the morning is not a bad thing as it boosts your metabolism - it is on of the few substances that is known to help mobilize fats from the fat tissues and increase metabolism, BUT don't go OTT with coffee as it pumps up your blood pressure, so its a no-no in the evenings !!!
Again, good luck.
Chris0 -
cyd190468 wrote:BTW energy drinks are the devil. You don't need caffiene you need sugar.
Surely it depends what the 'energy drink' is. Mtn Dew, Monster, Relentless etc, the 'commercial' ones have tonnes of sugar and tonnes of caffeine. High 5, Torq, SIS etc have tonnes of sugars and some also have caffiene.
OP - I'd say you're doing things wrong with regards to eating though. Don't have the energy drink when you get to work, have the milkshake then. Have the energy drink as the emergency 'get you out of trouble' on the way home if you need it.
Even better, do as Chris says as replace the energy drink with something a bit more natural. If you're going to ride before eating, don't have the milk - black coffee/espresso and nothing else. You'll have less energy for sure (research bonk training), but your metabolism will be higher throughout the day.
Oh, and people, it's "lose" weight - loose is the opposite of tight!0 -
Thanks for taking the time to reply folks.
My question was whether i should press on without refuelling if able to do so, as that might improve fat burning/stamina, or whether to refuel premptively in case running out of glycogen causes muscle breakdown.
As regards caffeine, yes i know in an ideal world i wouldn't have any, but i don't smoke drink or eat meat, i am going into sleep deficit working 12 hour shifts with a 3 hour bike commute on top, it's a big ask. Caffeine is for mental acuity at work, i don't need it to exercise and generally dont take caffeine after lunch time / early afternoon.
To clarify on the morning coffee, it's one level teaspoon of instant coffee in a pint mug, with skimmed milk, and i drink the remainder of the pint of skimmed milk. So nearly a litre of fluid half of which is skimmed milk which has a 3:1 ratio of carbs (lactose) to protein.
The energy drink is mainly so that i can switch my brain on once i arrive. Before cycling, it would be a sugar free monster/relentless (ie caffeine water and E numbers) but i found i would going hypo and getting faint before making it to breakfast time after riding in, so this first energy drink of the day is full fat.
I drink copious water when doing indoor cardio at the gym but at 5am on a winter's morning i don't sweat that much, in fact i can't complete the journey without needing to duck behind a bush and empty my bladder anyway. I produce copious amounts of clear urine throughout the day so really dont think i'm dehydrated. I usually chug a 500ml bottle or two of sparking mineral water before setting off for home to help flush any remaining caffeine out, and yes i need to "pit stop" on the way back too! The milk shake has the following per 100ml - carbs 9.9g, protein 3.2g, 1.5g fat. Yes a sports drink would be better but i love chocolate so this is a healthier alternative compared with a real chocolate bar! Our canteen is too "blue collar" for anything healthier
Overall, before cycling my diet was low fat, now it's very low fat. I used to be sorely tempted by chips, cheese , crisps , chocolate, but now i find my body actually craves lower fat higher carb items, and finds a jacket potato more appealing than chips, since i know it's going to help me get home.
I only started weighing myself 2weeks ago (been cycling for 8 weeks) so i probably don't have enough data points to say what my weight loss is with any confidence. But 2wks ago i weighed 96-99kg, this week it's been fluctuating between 93.5-96kg which looks like a decent rate of loss.0 -
kinioo wrote:Hi there and good luck !
I would say - your weight lose starts in the kitchen...yeah...5-6 regular meals, low carbs before bed time, high carb in the morning, spread them equally during your day and take it from there.
Regarding morning meal I would stick to some oats, fruits, honey, peanuts and/or eggs, veggies, brown toasts etc. Before you hit the road home after your work say 20-30min I would again eat something like oats / rice / fruits / honey / almonds etc. You can nicely mix a bit of oats / natural low fat yoghurt / some fruits (can be frozen) and add some almonds with honey - excellent and full of energy - 30min will be enough for your stomach to start to digest it and you should have enough energy for your journey home.
When you get back home (I believe it will be sometime in late afternoon / evening) get some proper meal i.e. fish / rice / veggies etc.; then as the last meal before bed time (say 1h before you go to sleep) get some low carbs meal i.e. protein shake etc.
You should really reduce you carbs in your meals as the day goes on...
As said before 'energy drinks' not very good - you say you take it when you get to work after your ride...I would go for some banana + peanuts + dark chocolate (a bit) also, what I do after my gym or post ride / mid ride snack is a homemade protein bars (PM me and I give you a very simple recipe - it takes 10-15min to prepare and you will get enough protein bars for 1,5 week !!!).
A coffee in the morning is not a bad thing as it boosts your metabolism - it is on of the few substances that is known to help mobilize fats from the fat tissues and increase metabolism, BUT don't go OTT with coffee as it pumps up your blood pressure, so its a no-no in the evenings !!!
Again, good luck.
Chris
Listen to this guy.
If you're fueled up properly before your commutes you should be able to get through 90mins of riding without needing to take anything on-board. It might be a bit trickier in the morning (if you're an "up and out" sort of bloke), but really it's just a matter of changing what your choosing as fuel.
Your seem to be dedicated to what you're doing (many people couldn't mentally handle 90 minute commutes either side of 12-hour shifts), so just refine you're approach and you'll do even better.
Out of interest, have you set yourself any goals? Either in-terms of cycling or weight loss?
Good luck!0 -
Might be a cultural thing, over here we would call High 5 etc sports drinks. Energy drinks don't have electrolytes and stuff.
The terms are used synonymously here. Clearly the OP means "energy drink" by your definition, not sports drinks, but you said "BTW energy drinks are the devil. You don't need caffiene you need sugar.", most energy drinks have tonnes of sugar, so it's a moot point.0 -
Except there is - again, check out bonk training. Caffeine helps. I'd suggest the pint of milk is undoing the effect of that though, whilst not actually providing much nutrition.0
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To combat thread drift, i'll rephrase the original question.
As I understand it, fat metabolism, on average, can meet demands up to about 50% of your threshold power. Anything above and beyond that is met by burning glycogen. I think they did some tests at different intensities and basically determined that the amount of fat burned was the same, but as intensity increased the amount of gylcogen that was consumed , increased.
Once your glycogen is gone your body can break down amino acids for energy but as this comes from your own muscle mass, that's not a good idea.
I listened to a radio interview about a team of Antarctic explorers, pulling their own sleds to the South Pole. Apparently they were burning 9000 calories a day and were loosing significant amounts of muscle mass and strength by the end of the expedition. The reason being they simply were unable to absorb enough food energy to meet their needs nor break down their fat stores fast enough for fuel, so self-cannibalism instead took place.
So if you can feel yourself getting low on a ride, you should get some carbs in, or if not possible, either park the bike and call a taxi, or slow right down to a sub-exercising threshold, and creep home. Or do i just switch my brain off and press on regardless (get home-itis is something i'm prone to ) ?
I think some of you might be using a nutrition-related thread as a platform for promoting your own nutrition theories. That's fine because i do it as well, but remember i haven't actually told you what i eat yet (if i gave you a food diary for a week, you might have a better idea) and please don't assume that my idea of nutrition is eating strips of lard or deep frying Mars bars.GingerBeardMusketeer wrote:Listen to this guy.
If you're fueled up properly before your commutes you should be able to get through 90mins of riding without needing to take anything on-board. It might be a bit trickier in the morning (if you're an "up and out" sort of bloke), but really it's just a matter of changing what your choosing as fuel.
Are you really saying though, that I should be able to ride 3 hours a day, at close to my best pace, for 3 days straight, whilst only consuming 2500 calories per day, and not suffer from reduced performance at any point?
Well rested, and fully carbed up, of course i can ride 90 minutes flat out without refuelling and without fading. The above scenario is different however.GingerBeardMusketeer wrote:
Out of interest, have you set yourself any goals? Either in-terms of cycling or weight loss?
Good luck!
I haven't really. Setting expectations too high can lead to catastrophic thinking, delaying in starting an exercise program, and serious problems if targets are not met.
If I loose so much as 1 pound in body fat the program is a success, so it has already been a success. But i can get below 13 stone i'd feel 10 years younger at a stroke. Ultimately i'd like to get under 76kg, but don't know if that falls in the realm of "unrealistic goal".
I've not had an actual athletic goal for 20 years, all improvements have merely happened by accident in pursuit of the above! I'd like to increase my threshold power however.0 -
I have just completed a 4 day work shift. Actually, day one was taken as holiday, so i rode in days 2, 3 and 4, despite the high winds. Because of tailwinds/headwinds, the inbound journey was about 1hr 20 and the homebound leg 2hr 10.
Days 1 and 2 i'd have the coffee to start, but skipped the remainder of the milk. Upon arrival, the 500ml energy drink. Then 1 hour later a 500ml chocolate milk drink. Then breakfast - four slices of wholemeal toast with jam or marmalade, no butter or margarine, and a low fat yoghurt. Then an hour later i'm craving carbs again, another 500ml chocolate drink (Yazoo! milk shake, semi skim milk) . Finally i'm starting to feel recovered from the ride in and my appetite slows down. Lunch is relatively light , either a bowl of soup with bread roll or stir fried veg or jacket potato with baked beans. Same meal again before i set of for home. On arrival, i quickly eat some Quorn pieces with a can of baked beans, have yet another Yazoo! chocolate shake, a quick shower then straight to bed.
On the homebound ride on day 2, whilst dodging the downed tree branches, I ran into a pair of road bikers. Attempted to tell them my itinerary, but couldn't remember the name of the village i've lived in for the past year. After saying "Er" for several seconds i just waved in the general direction and said "over there!". Could blame it on low glucose but it's probably just dementia.
During the ride in on day 3, i started to feel tired around the 1 hour mark. I decided to neck the 500ml can of Monster there and then, not expecting it to do anything, but i experienced a surprise surge and the remaining part of the journey was pretty wild, with tailwind-induced velocities and large lean angles in the corners.
Unlike the previous two days, my appetite didn't calm down at the 11am mark, i ended up grazing on something and getting lightheaded every hour for the whole day. The canteen closed early because of staff issues, the vending machine was out of service, and the nearest shop was full of chavs, so the only "emergency drink" i could procure for the road was a tiny 250ml bottle of Tropicana fruit juice from the rotary sandwich vending machine (decided to give the rather limp looking, prawn and crab salad "seafood surprise" baguette a miss) .
I'd also had the bright idea of trying out this "national cycle route" that Google Maps said should be there. As expected it was poorly signposted, incomplete and turned the final journey into a 3 hour audax. Despite all the food i'd had that day, i never felt all that strong from the moment i left, and ended up breaking into the Tropicana at some point. Again, i was surprised to find the little bottle gave me a surge and i had a bit of a party with it, before experiencing a very abrupt "warp field collapse". I remember the irresistable force of the road camber pushing me into rut at the verge only a couple inches deep, and being unable get out. Turn one way, the bike tracked back into the middle of the rut again. Gave it a reckless push, it went up the side a bit, then reversed back down and up the other side of the rut before settling in the middle again. Then i'd lost too much momentum and had to put my feet down, the world was spinning and i was soaked in cold sweat. Fortunately i was less than a mile from a petrol station.
Grabbed, yep, another Yazoo milk drink, a small packet of grapes, and a bottle of Oasis (never had it before, but at such moments, the advertising slogan held some appeal "open, pour, be yourself once more").
Immediately scoffed the lot and started to shiver violently. Yup, it's 3deg C outside, after 9pm, i'm wearing a t-shirt under a windproof jacket, and i just put a litre of chilled liquid in my stomach. This motivated me to pedal the remaining distance home without a pause.
On my days off i have access to better quality foods. Today i've gotten through 8 low fat yoghurts, 400g grapes, 250g pineapple chunks, 400g strawberries, with 400g can of low fat rice pudding. Going to make a Quorn chilli later, but apparently there's enough protein in all the yoghurts and milk i get through, to meet the RDA.0 -
INRATS, you're over thinking it. You're not a polar explorer burning muscle and risking your health. You're riding a short distance home from work. You're overweight and running on fats for a bit won't do you any harm. It's not all that surprising given what you're eating.
Yes, if you're flagging on a ride, having carbs will keep you going. Protein won't so much, that's most useful to repair muscle damage post exercise. You don't seem to really be asking a question as such. Your nutrition strategy is odd, and IMO heavily flawed, but you don't seem to want advice on that.
What are you asking? Or are you just talking? In which case may I suggest Cody's thread, to keep the waffle in one place.0 -
Also don't forget a bigger body needs more fuel. I am 6ft7 and unless I don't do any proper exercise 2500 calories leaves me starving at best and wobbling round much slower on the bike than normal. I would concentrate on eating enough to keep you going on the rides. Only once you stop losing weight and stop gaining fitness is it worth going into more detail on your diet. Eating healthily is always good for your performance.0
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njee20 wrote:INRATS, you're over thinking it. You're not a polar explorer burning muscle and risking your health. You're riding a short distance home from work. You're overweight and running on fats for a bit won't do you any harm. It's not all that surprising given what you're eating.
OK, I'll take this as a +1 for the "keep going in bonk mode if able to maintain sufficient awareness of other road users, it's helping you lose fat".njee20 wrote:You don't seem to really be asking a question as such.
You just answered it!njee20 wrote:
Your nutrition strategy is odd, and IMO heavily flawed,
From what i can infer from your posts in this thread , you recommend
1. bonk rides , fasted, with only black coffee before
i often do this
2. carbs before/during, protein after.
i try to do this , but sometimes crave chocolate milk at the wrong times
3. to follow gingerbreadrider's advice (less processed food?)
I have started to read Gingerbread's blog, imagine that'll take me a little while !
I am eating a diet that's 80% carbs and less than 10% fat, i have reduced my intake of fats and processed food and salt and am eating more fruit than at the start. It's a battle between the theoretical ideal vs my dysfunctional lifestyle vs emotional need to experience the taste of chocolate when stressed.njee20 wrote:but you don't seem to want advice on that.
What are you asking? Or are you just talking? In which case may I suggest Cody's thread, to keep the waffle in one place.
OK, this bit makes me look inside myself and ask if i am acting like the brash, know-it-all newbie, who won't listen to the advice of his elders and betters and needs a good slapdown.
Am I not allowed to comment on the advice offered, and offer further information on my own diet in response, or explain the reasons why i sometimes do things that are less than optimal? Yes I am trying to reconcile what i have been told, i am not rejecting anybody. But if I do these things it's going to blow up into a huge topic and i am sure the forum has better things to do than analyse my dysfunctional lifestyle. That is why i was reluctant to discuss this here.
As regards your assertion that i should shove off to some thread on the off-topic forum, I was thinking of keeping to "The Fat Club" thread as the most appropriate place for me.0 -
Hi RutlandGav,
I've re-read your posts and understand your frustration with this thread. I'll try to address your questions without getting into other topics, as best I can.So if you can feel yourself getting low on a ride, you should get some carbs in, or if not possible, either park the bike and call a taxi, or slow right down to a sub-exercising threshold, and creep home. Or do i just switch my brain off and press on regardless (get home-itis is something i'm prone to ) ?
Yes, you should get some carbs in. But better than this would be to refuel before you get this point. The you 1. Will be able to ride faster/longer 2. Won't be risking riding like a loon 3. Will enjoy the experience of riding a little more!
I hope you don't see this as promoting my own nutritional theories 
Are you really saying though, that I should be able to ride 3 hours a day, at close to my best pace, for 3 days straight, whilst only consuming 2500 calories per day, and not suffer from reduced performance at any point?
I do a 3 hour ride Friday mornings before work (330am wake up, yay!). Some mornings I have this scheduled at heart rate Zone 3, which is close to my maximum 3 hour pace. I have done this session on two bananas, one when I wake up and one at the half way point. So thats about 210 Calories. While I could feel the lack of energy at the end, I wasn't bonking! I could still hold the pace and think straight! I've also done 3 hours, at the same pace, but over a far more difficult course (hills) taking in a homemade carb/protein mix every 20 minutes. About 530 Calories. I felt much better using the second option and could ride "stronger".
So, to directly answer your question, yes, I think you should be able to ride 3 hours (2 x 1.5 hour sessions) a day, three days in a row. I think you might be a bit short on Calories (maybe closer to 3000 required). I don't think it will be close to your best pace, as your best pace will require optimal fuelling, and you're not doing that (but I think you know that! )
Let me know if I've missed something or misunderstood a question. And sorry for the unintentional hijack!0 -
GingerBeardMusketeer wrote:
I'll get better at storing and conserving glycogen with time, come to think of it i do remember, back in my early thirties, when i'd had a 50/wk commute for 10 yrs, doing a 6 hr loop at the weekend with only 600 calories in snacks. And i'd regularly do 4hrs unrefuelled.
I've come to the conclusion that it'd be better if i lived only an hour or so from work. I could ride every day and still get enough time for sleep, and i wouldn't have to contemplate shovelling additional food over and above what my appetite demands, when trying to lose weight. ATM it's kind of a similar problem to last year, where i was training only on my days off, uneven distribution of exercise across the week. At least this time the overtraining coincides with the overeating (canteen food is like the buffet on the Jeremy Kyle show).
Reading your blog though, i'm shocked by the pace you guys have ! 75 clicks off road in 3 hours, on an "easy" day? That's 15mph, yikes. Do you know how much your aerobic power output has increased since you took up riding? I'm guessing not, since you've been riding a while and it wasn't commonly measured till recently.
About 3 weeks ago, i tried a not very scientific method to get an idea what my power and calorie burn was like. On the exercise bike at my gym, i'd pedal at one resistance level and check my peak HR over the course of a minute. When the peak HR stopped going up, i'd increase the resistance. I got to 130Watts at 97rpm and 129HR, but when I increased the resistance one more step, so that i was pedalling 150 Watts, it just went up and up with no sign of ever stabilizing and i got more and more breathless. So, 130 is all i got :?
Actually, when i was living in the cardio suite last year, that's pretty close to what i was putting out across a wide range of equipment. On my MTB i'm getting 14mph @ 125BPM when tucked in on the triathalon bars - same as i was getting 10 years ago as a longtime bike commuter, at a bodyweight 15kg less. Still, i've not intentionally trained above 60% MHR for a long long time, so I suppose that's the first place to look at.
Resting HR is a bit all over the shop ATM. Yesterday morning it was 54, today 66. Weight is down to 94kg already..0 -
RutlandGav wrote:About 3 weeks ago, i tried a not very scientific method to get an idea what my power and calorie burn was like. On the exercise bike at my gym, i'd pedal at one resistance level and check my peak HR over the course of a minute. When the peak HR stopped going up, i'd increase the resistance. I got to 130Watts at 97rpm and 129HR, but when I increased the resistance one more step, so that i was pedalling 150 Watts, it just went up and up with no sign of ever stabilizing and i got more and more breathless. So, 130 is all i got :?
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I went to the gym yesterday with the aim of getting some crosstraining and revisiting this. Unfortunately they're having a refit and the exercise bike i used to do the last "test" wasn't available, i was stuck with a machine with no Watts display. I did however manage to hold 680 cal /hr for 20 minutes at 149-151HR, which is slightly more cal/hr than i got last time at 129 or so.
It felt like hell. My quadriceps were burning and it took a lot of will to force them to keep pushing the pedals in spite of this. Yet I wasn't breathing all that hard, in fact i was able to breathe through my nose. I kept my cadence over 90 but the legs still burned!
All that training last year was done on the treadmill or crosstrainer, the quads weren't getting much of a workout and i think they're less developed than my CV system. Come to think of it, i did in fact do some after work sessions last year too. I'd train at around 120bpm on my days off for long sessions and after work most nights i'd get 45 min on the crosstrainer at 140ish. Those shorter , higher intensity sessions only seemed to make me feel ravenous the next day however.
The other thing is, I'm probably not a natural endurance athlete. At school I was equal fastest or fastest in my year at 100/200m, despite being completely untrained and doing no sport.
I'm heading out to the gym again now for more crosstraining, the Sunderland vs Newcastle game should keep me occupied.0 -
You never ride above 60% MHR? I'd barely move.
Not sure what you're trying to 'test' with your power tests? If you want a useful power metric to be able to train to power then why not do an FTP test?0 -
njee20 wrote:You never ride above 60% MHR? I'd barely move.
Not sure what you're trying to 'test' with your power tests? If you want a useful power metric to be able to train to power then why not do an FTP test?
Well when I was a young whippersnapper like yourself, I did rev out a bit more. Aged 20 I bought a HRM for £70 (not cheap or common, those days) and did a similar "test", used to go running with 170bpm as the target HR.
Around 25 or so i used to use 160 as the target for 90 minute long runs.
The last couple of years I've been trying to keep into the "fat burning zone". The theory has its doubters, but I can burn almost twice as many calories before going into bonk mode at 120 vs 140 bpm . If not time constrained, that's what i tended to do. Yesterday's 150bpm workout left me utterly RAVENOUS, and i ended up having a larger meal than i'd planned to after. I remember this used to happen a lot last year, after my shorter 140bpm workouts after work, i'd be craving terribly the next day, having mood swings etc.
The other thing is I've built up to 10 hours cycling a week in the space of 2 months, having not exercised at all for the previous 6/7 months and not done any real cycling for 8 years. Ultimately my priority has to be building up my bike hours so i can really start burning the weight off, before adding the speed work, painful as it is to see how slow i am. I'm just idly wondering what i'm actually likely to achieve, realistically.0 -
RutlandGav wrote:
Reading your blog though, i'm shocked by the pace you guys have ! 75 clicks off road in 3 hours, on an "easy" day? That's 15mph, yikes. Do you know how much your aerobic power output has increased since you took up riding? I'm guessing not, since you've been riding a while and it wasn't commonly measured till recently.GingerBeardMusketeer wrote:
I'm doing 75km in 3 hours ON-road, not off! I'm a "bottom of the pack" racer! If I could do 25km/h off road I'd be racing the national series!
I've no idea what my aerobic power output is. I'd love to do an FTP test. There are a few places locally that will do a proper test for a couple of hundred dollars, but it's hard to justify the expense. If I look at my recent performances on my local "test piece" road climbs I'm doing better than ever. That will be a combination of increased aerobic conditioning and reduced weight. If you've read my blog you'll know I've been doing the vast majority of my riding at low heart rates at it's really been paying off. I targeted sub-75% MHR.
Out of interest, have you done a max HR test? I can't see mention of it in your posts. Do you use your HR monitor on your commutes? Are you cal counting? Adjusting for exercise?0 -
GingerBeardMusketeer wrote:
Out of interest, have you done a max HR test? I can't see mention of it in your posts. Do you use your HR monitor on your commutes? Are you cal counting? Adjusting for exercise?
i've not done a max HR test, because it sounds like it's gonna hurt !
I am considering trying an hour on exercise bike doing a fake TT to get average watts on my next 4 off tho.
I used to use a HR monitor, but lost it sometime last year. I did calorie count on my last exercise campaign, but i always had to guess on my work days, since there's no reliable info with the canteen food. Not good enough in the kitchen to make packed lunches sorry, plus if i had the sort of ingredients in the house to make the things i'd want to eat, i'd probably end up binging on it :-(
I'm doing better than last year though. I think one major reason is that i'm not eating many meals at the gym this time round. They have a restaurant, but it's all Paleo, last yr I was breaking my vegetarian-ness to eat their fish - because i didn't fancy their carbless beef burgers or endless chicken dishes. The post-workout meals i was getting there were high in protein but very low in carbohydrates and probably quite high in fat. I'd feel unsatisfied and crave sweet stuff, and get light headed the day after at work... and end up snacking on choc bars from the vending machine at work. I was getting the carbs i needed eventually... but all those fat calories were sneaking in alongside.
I've started watching durianrider's channel on Youtube. He's entertaining !0 -
Durianrider lives near me, he's handy on a bike!
Keeping track of your calories might be useful to make sure you're getting enough in. Bonking, cravings etc etc sounds like you're "short-changing" yourself.
Never done the paleo-thing. I'm vegetarian as well, so i think that automatically excludes me!0 -
i've not done a max HR test, because it sounds like it's gonna hurt !
How are you assessing your HR zones then?I am considering trying an hour on exercise bike doing a fake TT to get average watts on my next 4 off tho.
Don't do an hour, it's earth shatteringly boring, so few can sustain the pace for that long if not in a real race situation, let alone on an exercise bike. Do 20 minutes, and take 95% of your average power for your FTP. So if you do 300w for 20 minutes then your FTP is 285w. Warm up properly first, couple of 30 second efforts to so to make sure you can go hard for the 20 minutes. Don't set off too hard, you're looking to be able to ride at a constant intensity the whole time. The first one can be quite difficult as you don't have a baseline, and it's tempting to set off much too hard. If you find yourself drifting off the pace can the session and do it another day. You need to be well rested.0 -
I took it pretty easy easter monday, just a 1 hour walk . Maybe because of what we've been talking about, maybe because of that rest, maybe because i'd spent the evening before watching Durianrider rant at the camera, I was very pumped up day one and attacked the route. Really felt i was flying on the return journey, yet surprisingly i wasn't blowing up as expected. Then it turns out i'd only done it in 85 minutes instead of 90, and the weather was unbeleivably benign. Maybe my eyes were tired, that's why the white lines seemed to flash past faster than normal.
Paid for it today, i had planned to try doing all 4 days riding (maybe shouldn't have gone so banzai d1). But near the end of my ride home tonight i felt something in my left thigh. I've never had a muscle injury before, no idea what they feel like, but obviously the imagination works overtime. Knot? Tear? I felt like a little bit of both, right in the middle of the muscle. Then it kind of went away 5 minutes later. After stopping though both thighs feel stiff and sore. Gonna play it safe and drive tomorrow. Also i've had 9 hours sleep total the past 2 nights. The thought of having to repack my panniers feels like the world's most complicated puzzle right now. So i'll drive and take a detour on the way home, last day, and try to get lost again.0 -
Well I drove day 3, then went back to riding day 4 as the twinge was a false alarm. Nutritionally , the past two have been tough.
Day 3 I was craving carbs from the evening before's ride home, but as i hadn't ridden that day, felt i couldn't just eat as and when the urge took me. Tried a breakfast of porridge and 3 low fat yoghurts. Didn't feel satisfied immediately, but told myself, "porridge is low GI, you have to wait for it to kick in". 85 minutes later i'm getting impatient and hit google, turns out peak blood sugar is reached in under 30 minutes even with porridge ! Then again, they are probably testing with rested subjects. I never felt my blood sugar rise above rock bottom (dizzy spells) before during or after that breakfast.
Day 4 I went with two bowls of porridge and 3 yoghurts (each bowl is pretty tiny tbh). This drew comments about my huge breakfast :-( , but TBH i suspect their sausages, bacon and eggs make up for in density what they lack in dinner tray surface area. THIS did the trick, i felt pretty full for the next two and a half hours, topped up with another chocolate shake at 11am to see me through till lunch.
Lunchtime i faced a typical dilemma. Main courses - fish and chips , of the "Glasgow supper, battered & deep fried" variety, or veggie bean burger topped with cheese, served with chips. I forced myself to ignore these and get the healthy but rather boring home-made potato + leek soup + bread roll, and since that's only a little snack, also a jacket potato with baked beans. Their pricing structure meant i paid for almost two main courses :evil:
Afternoon break was two more yoghurts. Then something urgent came up and i ended up staying late to get it finished (8pm). Canteen was closed, while burning the midnight oil, i went off the to the vending machine to get one bag of crisps. Unfortunately I lost control and ended up binging on three, plus two sandwich rolls (tuna mayonnaise and sweetcorn). I'm really annoyed because i ate a load of fat calories - about 33g in the crisps and who knows how much in the mayonnaise in those sandwiches, when i'd had an almost perfect day nutritionally otherwise.
Finally i cycled home, taking the same detour through the vale as last week. Except that this time i didn't bonk twice, and got home half an hour faster. Shows how messed up i must have been at that point.
Lessons?
(At work) Eat More to Eat Less?
Some background info about our workplace
*12 hour days with three breaks. breaks are too short/we're too isolated to really get food off-site
*food and drinks are not allowed in the work place itself. health and safety, the nature of what we do etc. however you pass a vending machine serving mars bars and crisps both when heading to the loo, and when heading to the admin office. If you buy some Minstrels or Revels and eat the bag in one mouthful, your boss won't notice.
I'm not sure how much difference the high/low GI thing makes, especially if you just exercised recently. Eating enough carbs to replenish is the most important factor as to whether you'll last till the next break. Not enough is not enough, period.
Other than eating a lake of porridge, the only only things that would work would be to take more frequent , smaller meals (i'll try asking the management to give us 6 breaks a day, yeah right).
Last year, i did actually get decent results by carrying glucose tablets. People would go nuts over this, say it was an insane thing to do and make me diabetic. But the thing is, a full pack of the things is only the same calories as a small bag of Revels (130 ish) and i've found that taking one tablet every time i feel cravings/low/dizzy would make it go away for a good while. i'd still have some left at the end of the day, which is a lot better than raiding the vending machine 3 or more times (which i can quite easily do instead).
Don't Let Hunger sneak up on you
On that last day I was so engrossed in the task i forgot that i hadn't eaten for several hours, and left myself exposed to a temptation with no healthy option available. Next time - stop to eat at dinner time, no matter how urgent the task you're on, and no matter how close you think you are to finishing (i underestimated by a factor of about three)0 -
You have issues with food.
This is basically becoming your blog.
I don't understand why you can take milkshakes with you, but can't just make a big portion of pasta or chicken salad or whatever, and eat that. Binging on 3+ bags of crisps shows you either have no will power or are needing more food, and I'm not convinced anyone needs two bowls of porridge, 3 yoghurts, some soup, a jacket potato, plus all manner of shit from the vending machine to get you through a day.0 -
This continued in PM for a bit , since I was concerned thatnjee20 wrote:This is basically becoming your blog.
Just about every overweight person doesnjee20 wrote:You have issues with food.njee20 wrote:
I don't understand why you can take milkshakes with you, but can't just make a big portion of pasta or chicken salad or whatever, and eat that.
The ride home milkshakes are purchased just before i set off. The evening before my first day at work, after a meal (so not hungry) i'll buy 4 for the ride in/recovery. Then i freeze them. I couldn't keep milkshakes in the house during my 4 off however, frozen or otherwise.
Handling, preparing food then trying not to pick at it while it sits in the fridge stresses me out just thinking about it. Yes, I need a shrink, or to man TF up!0 -
Keeping it (over)simple:
- Carbs keep you going
- Protein rebuilds muscle when you're done
Milkshakes whilst riding and energy drinks when you finish is the wrong way around. You don't need to start rebuilding muscle when you're flagging halfway through a ride, nor do you need a sudden burst of energy once you finish riding!
Why can't you keep milkshakes in the house? Just the willpower thing? I'd suggest that that's a massive barrier that you need to get over. Seems little is going to change whilst that's the case.
Do you have nowhere at work to leave food? Lockers or anything? Take in a tuppaware of pasta, some pine nuts, some pesto and some fresh tomatoes. Pick at that when you're hungry. Vastly more healthy than stuff from the canteen or vending machine (not perfect admittedly), and will keep you going. Or fruit as a snack, not crisps!
Porridge before you leave in the morning - sensible sized (that doesn't mean small), bit of honey or jam in there if you want. Milkshake at work. Pasta for lunch. Energy drink before you set off. Milkshake when you get home.
Pasta aside it's not really any different food, just the order you eat them in.
Alternatively you can do the 'bonk training' thing - black coffee before you leave, then nothing until you arrive. By drinking the milk you're doing yourself no favours - if you've not had anything other than the coffee your body will run off fats quicker (you will feel lethargic though), by introducing a bit of a sugar your body will continue to want to burn glucose which you don't have (having only consumed a very small amount), you'll feel really really lethargic and not use fat as efficiently. Do one, or the other. Have breakfast, or don't.
Like I've said, it's not really clear what you're trying to achieve. Do you want to lose weight? Get fitter? Get faster? All of the above? You're never going to solve the first one if you can't have food in the fridge without eating it, and that is the single biggest barrier to the other two. Don't think that cycling will compensate for that!
I'm not pretending to be a nutritionist, nor the best informed, but like I say, seems you can make some simple changes which will help you out no end.0 -
No issues with you posting, it's a forum after all, but you've been given a lot of advice, and either ignored or out of hand dismissed all of it! It's not really clear if you actually want advice, or just want to blog about what it is you've been eating?
I'm sorry if I give the impression of dismissing advice.
I'd initially posted a question, what happens when you continue to exercise after gylcogen is exhausted, do you burn only fat or start to loose muscle. I got frustrated because i felt people were ctrl + v nutrition advice based on one or two things i'd mentioned in passing, rather than giving their opinion on the subject. Of course now i'm diverting my own thread into a weight loss blog.
I think i have taken things onboard. I no longer drink the pint of milk before departing. I'll either do the whole journey unrefuelled or have the energy drink after 1 hour, because the final stretch is through urban parts and i need my wits about me, also i must admit there's some vanity - i don't want my work colleagues see me wobbling in at a snail pace, being passed by everyone. The milk shake is saved in case i can't make it to breakfast time without crashing. I usually can't.
On my days off when i hit the gym, I do actually go with carbs pre workout, carbs + protein after, and hold the caffeine. During work days things get compromised by the need for mental sharpness (caffeine) and the bargains i strike with myself, as i walk past the vending machine 20 times a day, not to use it. I'm a huge chocolate addict.
The gingerbread musketeer's blog has been very useful to see how to structure a training volume ramp up. And it's made me realise what a middle aged, "bottom of the pack" rider can do if they put their mind to it. If I hadn't seen that, I'd probably just pat myself on the back for commuting 16 miles to work and think that's all I can do. I am trying to get more fruit in, i just haven't followed the part about nuts yet, because until i entirely eliminate unhealthy snacks (as you see, i still have bad days) I don't need to worry about getting sufficient fats.Why can't you keep milkshakes in the house? Just the willpower thing? I'd suggest that that's a massive barrier that you need to get over. Seems little is going to change whilst that's the case.
Well, at the moment i'm tempted to say i have zero control, but i have to remember that i am intentionally undereating wrt. to the training load, and losing up to 2lb a week, so i am going to be very hungry a lot of the time. I've structured things as far as possible to minimise the time i'm exposed to temptation. I go into the shop with blinkers on and a list of items, i only need to stay strong for as long as i'm at the shop. At work, i have to resist the urge for 12 hours straight, that's a lot harder.Do you have nowhere at work to leave food? Lockers or anything? Take in a tuppaware of pasta, some pine nuts, some pesto and some fresh tomatoes. Pick at that when you're hungry. Vastly more healthy than stuff from the canteen or vending machine (not perfect admittedly), and will keep you going. Or fruit as a snack, not crisps!
Yeah, we have lockers and fridges. I probably could prepare something at home the evening before first day, provided i didn't leave the ingredients sat around on my days off. Would save a lot of money on canteen food. I need to check out some low fat vegetarian recipes etc. The binge though was simply poor planning, if i'd thought ahead i could have taken an extra break before the canteen closed and got another jacket spud, yoghurts or simply kept a spare milkshake on me.
(from work)Energy drink before you set off
Caffeine doesn't help my legs go round. It helps me remember my passwords, stare at lists of numbers, compare widgets, and feign enthusiasm. After 5 o'clock i have no further use for it ! Often the food i'll have (inevitably) eaten during the day means i don't need to carb up for the ride home. All depends really.Alternatively you can do the 'bonk training' thing - black coffee before you leave, then nothing until you arrive. By drinking the milk you're doing yourself no favours - if you've not had anything other than the coffee your body will run off fats quicker (you will feel lethargic though), by introducing a bit of a sugar your body will continue to want to burn glucose which you don't have (having only consumed a very small amount), you'll feel really really lethargic and not use fat as efficiently. Do one, or the other. Have breakfast, or don't.
This sort of comes back around to my original question about how the physiology works. From what I've read up on the role of insulin, i can see the logic - if i'm completely fasted, i should have no insulin making my body more willing to burn fat. Now that i've stopped finishing the pint of milk, will the small amount i used to whiten the coffee still ruin that effect? I guess i'll try drinking it black (ugh) or just have a glass of water.
There's no way i'm making porridge at 4.30am. I'd probably set the kitchen on fire, and i don't actually feel hungry that early. In my experience, i get hungry 3 hours after waking, whether i ate something when i first woke or not.
My experience of riding out on a white coffee only, is that it feels like i'm running off the carbs assimilated from supper while i slept. These run out after a while (depends whether it's the first or last day of consecutive rides) then i grind on slowly to the finish.
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I guess the physiological model i am attempting to follow is one of managing my glycogen reserves. I'm trying not to let them get full, because that means i start converting carbs to fat, but i try to avoid too much running on empty as well. Despite my chaotic relationship with food, by commuting i'm getting exercise every day or nearly every day, and it's somewhat self correcting, at least if i eat low fat high carb. On days when i eat more i simply find i can train longer, or cycle home faster.
I made my last post on my first day off. Later I went to the gym to get some crosstraining done and found that they'd finished the refit of the cardio suite. I watched the Arsenal game on Sky Sports on the elliptical trainer. Then discovered they'd fixed their DVB antenna and was able to get all 3 Kiss FM dance radio stations playing, and it was their Saturday night set. Oh and they also have a virtual reality mountain biking machine (tried it for half an hour, before realising it was lame) as well as these prerecorded "virtual bike" rides in the alps etc. Ended up doing 3 hours and smashing myself.
Missed the gym yesterday because of a car issue, so just didn't buy any more food once the fruit i'd bought that morning was gone, had a 24 hour fast. Moods went a bit crazy at first but now settled. I'm gonna get some more fruit and healthy stuff then head down the gym again to watch the Liverpool game. Last night I saw the lowest resting HR I've ever had, 47 bpm! Was back up to 54 this morning though..0 -
Shite you write a lot, completely TL:DR. Cody's impressed with you though, so you must be doing something wrong.0
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TBH I got lost here....0
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Still at it. Last week was the first time i did all 4 days riding in, but i'm not sure how sustainable that is.. i might not have been at my best at work as a result.
Been some kind of development on the power conundrum. The new exercise equipment at the just-refitted gym shows higher numbers than the old stuff. Yesterday did 180watts on the treadmill @ 112 bpm during the first half of the Newcastle v Tottenham game. The low HR was on account of the game being torpor-inducing, rather than me being super-fit. Then did 35 minutes on the recumbent exercise bike and had a VERY hard time holding 120-130W, heavy breathing and lots of pain in the quads. Finally someone freed up an upright bike and got another 35 minutes. This showed an average of 160watt at 115BPM over the 35 minutes. I did reach peaks of 180 @ 120watts, but had to concentrate to do that, my pace kept slipping back. Was pretty tired by then, not just from what i'd already done with only a crap game of football for entertainment, but also from the previous 4 days' commute.
Really need to resolve my bike fit ASAP, it's spring and i'd rather be out on a real bike.0
