(Stupid Speculation) - When will Di2 trickle down to 105?

gaffer_slow

I want me some cheap(er) digital shifting

redvee

Maybe a year or two, the LBS where I got my bike from said it's in the pipeline from a dealer show he went to last year.

Manc33

It took 23 years (1991-2014) for a downshift lever to trickle down from Dura Ace to Claris. :roll:

You could have a bloody long wait!

What annoys me is the price of the DA 9000 brake calipers when they have nothing to do with Di2. :x DA 7800 calipers are half the price, a third even and have to be the more "desirable" kit anyway in terms of racing pedigree. :twisted:

trailflow

edit

debeli

It will be a business decision and it will be a while. Messrs Shimano and Campagnolo are very happy with the margins and volumes they are currently enjoying. Who wouldn't be?

I took a geared bike out yesterday (my son's ally-framed road bike running a 10-speed cassette and 39/53 chainrings, moved about by a mixture of Centaur and Veloce gubbins. I'd just serviced it and I have to say it was a joy. Just a twitch of the thumb or fingers, sometimes both thumbs at once... like the bolt action of a tiny, tiny, tiny rifle. Solid, instant, positive and Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

I've never ridden a bike with electronic shifters, but it would have to be JOLLY GOOD to merit consideration over a well-sorted Ergo set-up.

I may well be a Luddite, but these new-fangled electro-gizmos do seem to throw up as many issues as they bring 'solutions'.

markhewitt1978

Anywhere between this year and never? Shimano may well take the decision that Ultegra will be the lowest level of electronic shifting forever.

MisterMuncher

Next change will be to Tiagra, I reckon. Hidden cables and maybe a four bolt crank.

Moving Di2 lower would seem a mis-step, businesswise. By it's nature, it'll iron out any disparity in shift quality unless it is deliberately messed by design. I think 105 Di2 would kill Ultegra, the weight disparity isn't big enough to justify one over the other. I had thought it'd be a niche for Hydraulic Braking/Electronic Shift for cross and do-it-all bikes, but the UCI decisions of recent days might have put the kibosh on that.

Manc33

What they should do is make Dura-Ace Di2 wireless... making 105 become standard wired Di2 sooner.

Then you can have pylons and mobile phones changing gear for you.

Smokin Joe

I'd reckon very shortly. More and more people are switching to electronic and if either Campag or Shimano stall on introducing it on the lower groupsets they'll give the other one a chance to steal a march on them and take their sales.

The high price of electronic systems will fall as manufacturers recoup R&D costs and get longer production runs operating, the same as happened when brifters started to appear.

iron-clover

I think they'll only do it to out sell one of their rivals, such as when SRAM ultimately get in on the game as well- if they can then release a far cheaper groupset than anyone else and gobble up the market so its more difficult for the others.

I think the shifters at least are cheaper to manufacture than their mechanical versions (not so sure about the derailleurs though) and there won't be very much difference between 105 and Ultegra (or Dura ace) as there's only so much difference you can build into electronic buttons, motors and the software so they'll want to hold onto those bigger margins for as long as they can.

BR_Gregor

gaffer_slow wrote:

I want me some cheap(er) digital shifting

You've beaten me to the punch, gaffer_slow! Have written a short feature on exactly this, with a few snippets on what we already know. Is being published on Monday.

Giraffoto

It'll have to go some to improve on the current 5800 105 - there's not much more effort than pressing a button with it. What I'd like to see is a Shimano version of the hydraulic rim brakes that SRAM brought out at the same time as their hydraulic disc option.

mamba80

hopefully, never.

gaffer_slow

BR_Gregor wrote:

gaffer_slow wrote:

I want me some cheap(er) digital shifting

You've beaten me to the punch, gaffer_slow! Have written a short feature on exactly this, with a few snippets on what we already know. Is being published on Monday.

Didn't mean to label your article as stupid speculation! :shock:

Look forward to reading it.

Spatulala

Forget where I read it, but evidently electronic shifting is actually cheaper to manufacture than mechanical. So at the moment they're enjoying boosted profits, but as soon as one of them needs to drive sales volume, they'll bring out an entry level electronic gear set and the rest will have to follow suit. Then mechanical shifting will rapidly leave the market.

Alternatively, that might all be rubbish.

MisterMuncher

BR_Gregor wrote:

gaffer_slow wrote:

I want me some cheap(er) digital shifting

You've beaten me to the punch, gaffer_slow! Have written a short feature on exactly this, with a few snippets on what we already know. Is being published on Monday.

Yeah, about that. You mention an Edge 200 priced unit that does wireless. That'd be the Bryton Rider 20, then. You can't really expect Garmin to develop products further if you ignore their competition and present them as the only option...

keith57

105 disks have just been announced by Shimano. Hydraulic with mechanical gear changing. Di2 next maybe?

Bar Shaker

Just to clear up a couple of things...

It doesn't actually create any new issues, Debell, only solutions... such as never having to re-index again.

It is not just an improvement on 105, Giraffoto, it is in a different league. It isn't about the effort in pressing the button, it is all about giving the perfect shift every time.

Gaffer Slow you can fit Di2 shifters and derailluers to any cogset, 105, Ultegra, Campag, SRAM, you name it. It will never be as cheap as ye olde caybles.

robbo2011

That is a rather evangelical viewpoint. A more neutral viewpoint would be that it creates a different set of potential issues. Sure, no more indexing problems, but at the expense of potential battery and connector issues.

It is up to the buyer to decide which set of priorities are most important.

Manc33

I saw a cyclist with a thick wire going down his leg.

"What's that wire?" I asked.

"Its not a wire, its a tube, but thanks for asking" he said.
"Don't worry, its just the trickle down effect".

ben@31

I wish things were cheaper but from a business point of view it doesn't make sense from them to trickle down and sell the same good technology for less money. It's all supply and demand... if people like Di2 and there's little alternative, then they'll keep on selling it at a high price.

Smokin Joe

ben@31 wrote:

I wish things were cheaper but from a business point of view it doesn't make sense from them to trickle down and sell the same good technology for less money. It's all supply and demand... if people like Di2 and there's little alternative, then they'll keep on selling it at a high price.

Poor economics. Reduce the price as production steps up and R&D costs are recovered, sell shedloads and make more money.

Or sit on the fence and get caught cold when someone else comes in and grabs the mid-range and budget markets. That's how it works with virtually every new development. Brifters were out of reach of most people for the first few years, now even BSO' have them.

Manc33

I wouldn't get Di2 if it was the same price as mechanical.

Its alright if you've got a team car that can throw a new bike at you, but its unreliable for long commutes and touring. A gimmick.

bondurant

Nice try

Manc33

Bondurant wrote:

Nice try

Nice try at what, making people aware of its pitfalls?

Wiggo has already had his Di2 malfunctioning (the clip where he does "pro parking").

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJXc7OoRMeE

Or can't that be real because its on YouTube?

bondurant

Done to death.

Manc33

Bondurant wrote:

Done to death.

If people are asking when it will trickle down to 105, they might not know it can malfunction and change their mind when they do find out.

I care about reliability, not gimmicks.

bondurant

In your case, I'd recommend mechanical, there isn't enough space on the Internet for you to attempt to set up di2. Have you considered fixed?

kajjal

Manc33 wrote:

Bondurant wrote:

Done to death.

If people are asking when it will trickle down to 105, they might not know it can malfunction and change their mind when they do find out.

I care about reliability, not gimmicks.

Exactly the same, it is of no benefit to me that justifies the price.

Smokin Joe

Manc33 wrote:

I wouldn't get Di2 if it was the same price as mechanical.

Its alright if you've got a team car that can throw a new bike at you, but its unreliable for long commutes and touring. A gimmick.

Shimano wouldn't sell you a set. They have a blacklist of internet whiners who are only allowed to buy the simplest bits of kit.

Manc33

Shimano always have to appear "cutting edge" or another manufacturer might take over with some fancy electronic shifting, that works better.

It working reliably doesn't matter quite as much as flogging it to people, as we have already seen in the case of Wiggo and his malfunctioning Di2. :P

Di2 is the new Biopace. All this stuff is always amazing when it first comes out lol.

Back when Biopace came out, cyclists here and there probably said "Can't imagine ever going back to round chainrings now we have these". Yes you will because the chain bobs up and down (especially on middle and granny) and wears the chainrings out twice as fast. Otherwise we would still have Biopace and they just ended up ditching it (like they should with Di2) but its probably too far advanced to stop it now.

Now its all about wireless lol, when will they learn. We already know there isn't a wireless bike computer in existence that doesn't get interfered with by mobile phones and pylons... do you think Di2 wireless is going to be any different?! You'll have pylons changing gears for you and cyclists that spend a fortune saying "I wanted this cadence".