David Duckenfield

Frank the tank

I believe he should face criminal charges given his admission today.

What do fellow forumites think?

mamba80

Not sure because he was put in an impossible situation.... why was a man with so obviously little crowd control experience given this role? who gave him this job? and lets face it, the whole establishment covered up his and others lies, its not down to just one man.
Bit like Savile really....

Manc33

You might be surprised its me saying this but I think the police got too much flak for it, I mean such a thing had never happened in the past.

As with anything like this, it unfortunately always has to happen once to then make sure it doesn't happen again.

How can cops get blamed in such an aggressive way I mean it was ultimately the "fault" of the police, but they made a mistake. The way some people talk they seem to think the cops locked everyone in to deliberately crush them.

letap73

Manc33 wrote:

You might be surprised its me saying this but I think the police got too much flak for it, I mean such a thing had never happened in the past.

As with anything like this, it unfortunately always has to happen once to then make sure it doesn't happen again.

How can cops get blamed in such an aggressive way I mean it was ultimately the "fault" of the police, but they made a mistake. The way some people talk they seem to think the cops locked everyone in to deliberately crush them.

Perhaps if the mistakes (notice plural) weren't made 96 football fans would not of died.
Perhaps they shouldn't have been caught up in the collusion of blaming the Liverpool fans - some of them grieving parents, family etc and some who died in the crush .
Perhaps the senior police officers in charge shouldn't have taken nearly 30 years to accept any sort of responsibility.

Manc33

That is all true but some people make out the cops knew what would happen when no one did.

How could it have been prevented if it had never happened before? What we now look back on and call "warning signs" probably didn't enter anyone's head at the time, that's the real tragedy to me. The fact that these things do have to happen before anything is done to prevent it, you can't "prevent" something from happening if you have no notion it could happen.

Wunnunda

Given all the covering up and lying that has gone on, together with all the pain caused by the media (and The Sun in particular) misreporting the whole affair, I suppose the question is : Should Duckenfield be used as a scapegoat or 'lightening conductor' for everything that has gone on? Personally I think there needs to be a lot of thought given to this. I suspect, however, that the lynch mob is working on their noose tying as I type.

Manc33

I blame cops for not questioning their own training more than anything else I could question them for. Today they get trained by shady organisations you can't find anything out about.

Back in 1989 a cop would probably help an old lady across the street, today he would probably arrest her for breaching the peace and holding up traffic. The only reason for this alteration in policing is... the training. Everything seems to be geared towards making money (fines) as opposed to being there to stop crime.

The best one was when my car stereo got stolen and the cop said "It will get sold in Loot and we will never catch them". The thieves fingerprints could have been taken from my car, but of course we can't do that, a criminal might get caught and if that happens with any success, what would the cops do for a living.

letap73

Manc33 wrote:

That is all true but some people make out the cops knew what would happen when no one did.

How could it have been prevented if it had never happened before? What we now look back on and call "warning signs" probably didn't enter anyone's head at the time, that's the real tragedy to me. The fact that these things do have to happen before anything is done to prevent it, you can't "prevent" something from happening if you have no notion it could happen.

There was warning signs with regards to the previous FA cup semi final held at Hillsborough - involving Tottenham where fans were crushed against the fences. It is a commonly held view that the police response to the disaster was inadequate. Why for example were the ambulances kept out of the stadium - when they could have entered the stadium and at least some lives would have been saved. The senior police response - falsifying accounts etc, political response and the media response - the Sun in the aftermath was a disgrace. The perpetuating lies told in the inquest/hearing only served to heighten the grief felt by the survivors and those who looked for some form of justice/closure.

Wunnunda

Yes - I know someone who was at that Spurs game. Has never been able to bring himself to get into a crowd of people ever since. Even had to stop commuting to London.

The fencing in grounds (and the badly designed standing terraces) were an accident waiting to happen (and I don't think that is using hindsight). Just, sadly, happened to be Liverpool.

Manc33

Its true I can't say how angry I would be if I was one of the victims family members and with it going on for so long, you'd start to think you'll never get justice, but covering up like this isn't an isolated thing, this is just one of the things that somehow did come out in the end. I suppose you just have to care enough. I mean the victims families were never going to let it go and because of that ended up getting somewhere.

RideOnTime

Is he a mate of David Dickinson?

Frank the tank

Mamba80 says he was put in an impossible position, he wasn't, he was asked to take the role and despite his lack of experience he accepted, rather than put his hands up and admit he'd be out of his depth.

mamba80

Frank the tank wrote:

Mamba80 says he was put in an impossible position, he wasn't, he was asked to take the role and despite his lack of experience he accepted, rather than put his hands up and admit he'd be out of his depth.

What i meant was that once he was match commander, his (and the fans) fate was sealed, i do agree he should not have taken the role and he didnt have the experience BUT who asked him? who approved his acceptance? he "says" he was promised support, which he didnt get!! and where are the legions who allowed this cover up to continue? even allowing the press to rubbish the fans and their families.

Manc33

Frank the tank wrote:

Mamba80 says he was put in an impossible position, he wasn't, he was asked to take the role and despite his lack of experience he accepted, rather than put his hands up and admit he'd be out of his depth.

What if he was the most experienced "crowd control" person available at the time?

This is likely, since he was the one in charge.

oldhairylegs

To err is human and he made a terrible error of judgement on the day, which ultimately led to all those deaths occurring. Despite the terrible consequences, he should not be prosecuted for this error.

Lying about his actions, colluding in the subsequent cover up that went on for almost 30 years and choosing not to tell the truth until now is an entirely different matter and is unforgivable. He and all those that participated in this cover up should most certainly have to face the consequences of their actions in court.

tangled_metal

I seem to remember an accident where experienced rail workmen got run over by a works carriage rolling downhill. The gaffer failed to do something or made the wrong decision. He got jailed for manslaughter IIRC.

The most senior police officer in a crowd control role at a major football event makes a decision that directly results in the death of 96 people completes his long career, retires with full pension and will never face prosecution for anything.

The guy was not up for the job, hindsight. He did not get support, poor level of professionalism from retiring predecessor. He did not go to superiors to express concern over the situation he was put in then when it goes wrong he's helped in a cover up, establishment at its worst.

Whichever way you look at iit, this all stinks. I'm hoping this inquiry results in a kind of truth and reconciliation. Get it out, get it all out and perhaps learn. No group or individual will be held to account so let's have the truth.

pdstsp

Tangled Metal wrote:

I seem to remember an accident where experienced rail workmen got run over by a works carriage rolling downhill. The gaffer failed to do something or made the wrong decision. He got jailed for manslaughter IIRC.

The most senior police officer in a crowd control role at a major football event makes a decision that directly results in the death of 96 people completes his long career, retires with full pension and will never face prosecution for anything.

The guy was not up for the job, hindsight. He did not get support, poor level of professionalism from retiring predecessor. He did not go to superiors to express concern over the situation he was put in then when it goes wrong he's helped in a cover up, establishment at its worst.

Whichever way you look at iit, this all stinks. I'm hoping this inquiry results in a kind of truth and reconciliation. Get it out, get it all out and perhaps learn. No group or individual will be held to account so let's have the truth.

Operation Resolve is still ongoing and may lead to criminal prosecutions.

Frank the tank

Oldhairylegs wrote

To err is human and he made a terrible error of judgement on the day, which ultimately led to all those deaths occurring. Despite the terrible consequences, he should not be prosecuted for this error

I work in the aero engine industry. If I passed a component I had made off as good and it wasn't, and it failed causing a aircraft to crash I would be dragged into court to explain why I had passed off non-conforming work. Whether I was still working in the industry or not. Prison and a large fine would be beckoning.

I feel David Duckenfield should face charges.

I must say, I like a lot of others swallowed the police story of it being the fault of drunken Liverpool fans. Something I'm not very proud of. At the time however, I and my footballing mates did raise over £1k to send to the berieved families.

Lookyhere

Frank the tank wrote:

I feel David Duckenfield should face charges.

I must say, I like a lot of others swallowed the police story of it being the fault of drunken Liverpool fans. Something I'm not very proud of. At the time however, I and my footballing mates did raise over £1k to send to the berieved families.

I think to focus on one man, is wrong, of course he should face charges but in all likely hood, from the PM down, there were people in power who knew exactly what had happened and they all covered it up for 30 years.

Frank the tank

Lookyhere wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

I feel David Duckenfield should face charges.

I must say, I like a lot of others swallowed the police story of it being the fault of drunken Liverpool fans. Something I'm not very proud of. At the time however, I and my footballing mates did raise over £1k to send to the berieved families.

I think to focus on one man, is wrong, of course he should face charges but in all likely hood, from the PM down, there were people in power who knew exactly what had happened and they all covered it up for 30 years.

I agree, he alone should not carry the can. All involved in the cover up/conspiracy should face charges but, DD should face charges concerning his actions on the day never mind for all the lies thereafter.

Markat26

Oh the irony a genuine conspiracy and Manc33 can't see it.