Archetype tubeless

matt-h
matt-h Posts: 847
edited March 2015 in Workshop
Back story
I have '6800 wheels running schwalbe One.
I have 2 punctures that didn't seal.
The first I got a tube in eventually after a nightmare trying to get the tyres off the rim.
It was even harder getting it back on with a tube inside (I had already pinched one tube using levers)
The second time I couldn't be arsed and got the mrS to pick me up.

ok, so I'm looking to run my archetype tubeless.
I have run a double layer of stans tape - the wide stuff for the alpha 400 rims.
The tyre mounts fine and inflates with a track pump but slowly loses pressure over a couple of hours.
Is this normal until I put the sealant in?

Matt

Comments

  • arlowood
    arlowood Posts: 2,561
    Hi there

    No personal experience but if you peruse my recent thread on disc wheelsets you will see contradictory comments.

    viewtopic.php?f=40042&t=13016622&p=19448804&hilit=Disc+wheelset#p19448804

    Ugo states that the Archetypes are not designed as tubeless rims so if you want to run tubeless then spec a rim accordingly like Velocity Aileron and Pacenti SL25.

    Others however confirm that they have managed to convert the Archetypes successfully (ratfletcher/maddog 2)

    I would guess that on essentially non-tubeless rims you will need the sealant to ensure the tyre stays inflated.
  • DKay
    DKay Posts: 1,652
    Currently running Archetypes with 23mm tubeless Ones without issue, but with sealant. They hold pressure just fine.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,301
    It's not a tubeless rim, so only sealant can plug the gaps. They will probably need 24 hours to settle and a few rides before they are perfect and hold pressure indefinitely like a tubeless rim.

    I am a bit concerned about your punctures... pin type punctures should always seal, while slash type punctures might not seal, but generally result in a damaged tyre. If you had pin punctures that didn't seal, you either had too little sealant, or it was dry or it was contaminated (maybe you used tons of soapy water to fit the tyre?)

    If you puncture, keep riding carefully until it seals, it normally takes a few seconds, during which it will spray a bit. If you stop and hold the hole upwards, no sealant is allowed through it and it can't seal
    left the forum March 2023
  • rafletcher
    rafletcher Posts: 1,235
    The procedure I used on H+ Sons was tape, fit valve, fit tyre, remove valve core and pump to seat tyre. It'll mostly hold pressure as long as the pump is attached. Then deflate gently, pour sealant in through valve, replace valve core and inflate. I use a wheel building stand during these stages. Then take the wheel and tyre and shake it violently, turning it as you do. This helps splash the sealant about. It took maybe three of 4 days/reinflations before the pressure loss stopped. I also bounced the tyre on the floor, turning as I did, to splash sealant about. I also read that the tyres themselves need the sealant to be airtight, as the rubber used is slightly porous.
  • apreading
    apreading Posts: 4,535
    Flippin' 'eck - I would just fit tubes rather than bother with that lot!
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,301
    apreading wrote:
    Flippin' 'eck - I would just fit tubes rather than bother with that lot!

    Pretty much... but with a tubeless rim is all a lot simpler
    left the forum March 2023
  • matt-h
    matt-h Posts: 847
    It's not a tubeless rim, so only sealant can plug the gaps. They will probably need 24 hours to settle and a few rides before they are perfect and hold pressure indefinitely like a tubeless rim.

    I am a bit concerned about your punctures... pin type punctures should always seal, while slash type punctures might not seal, but generally result in a damaged tyre. If you had pin punctures that didn't seal, you either had too little sealant, or it was dry or it was contaminated (maybe you used tons of soapy water to fit the tyre?)

    If you puncture, keep riding carefully until it seals, it normally takes a few seconds, during which it will spray a bit. If you stop and hold the hole upwards, no sealant is allowed through it and it can't seal

    It was a slash type puncture caused by a small stone that didn't seal, although very small.
    On both occasions the roads were wet.
    I'm wondering if it failed to seal because the tyre was wet.
    I only used the applicator to get the tyre on and there was plenty of sealant,

    Thinking of using the Archetype as in this scenario i could easily fit a tube. THe Ultegra wheels are nigh on impossible to get a tube in
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,301
    Did you have any puncture that did seal?
    left the forum March 2023
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,301
    matt-h wrote:
    I don't think so

    Then there is something not quite right... maybe 1 in 10 punctures that does;t seal could be acceptable, but otherwise I would re-fit. I had 5-6 punctures that I am aware of and found a few sharps when I removed the tyre, so that's more punctures I didn't know about. Among those only one did not seal, but it was a 2 cm long shard of glass which got inside the tyre
    left the forum March 2023
  • rafletcher
    rafletcher Posts: 1,235
    apreading wrote:
    Flippin' 'eck - I would just fit tubes rather than bother with that lot!

    Pretty much... but with a tubeless rim is all a lot simpler

    How so? You still need to fit and inflate to seat the tyre, then deflate and add sealant and replace valve core before re-inflating. Might seal around the bead a bit better but the rubber is still porous and needs to get coated. I used the same procedure on my Pacenti tubeless rims.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,301
    rafletcher wrote:
    apreading wrote:
    Flippin' 'eck - I would just fit tubes rather than bother with that lot!

    Pretty much... but with a tubeless rim is all a lot simpler

    How so? You still need to fit and inflate to seat the tyre, then deflate and add sealant and replace valve core before re-inflating. Might seal around the bead a bit better but the rubber is still porous and needs to get coated. I used the same procedure on my Pacenti tubeless rims.

    The rubber in tubeless tyres make them air tight... you can run them without sealant with the correct setup. Sealant is just there to fix punctures for you
    left the forum March 2023
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    The punctures have had on my svhwable ones well here they are
    1) sidewall puncture would not seal had to put a tube in. Replaced the tyre.
    2) front pin hole puncture saw the sealant spurt out like arterial spray must have lost most of the sealant. Drop to arojnd 30 psi and fjnished the ride. Just could not be arsed pumping it back up. More sealant added and more air at home and it is fine.
    3) a big one in the rear it sealed up again at around 30psi but i lost most of the sealant. Carried on riding withou issue. The tyre now looks like it has a small hernia but with more sealant it is holding air. Not sure if i should replace it or not, i probably should but i tempted to see how many more miles i can get out of it. Currently using different wheels so ill have to wait.

    So you need to have a lot of sealant in the tyres. I put as much as can in before i start spilling it everywhere. I have also set up tubeless tyre on archetype rims with sealant there is only a modest pressure overnight then it sorts it self out. TUbeless tyres require new skills. Persevere as it is worth it As previouly the only winter tyre i have had any confidence in is the conti gatorskin hardshell. The schwable one tyre is so much nicer to ride and i dont have to worry about punctures Stopping me.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • rafletcher
    rafletcher Posts: 1,235
    apreading wrote:
    Flippin' 'eck - I would just fit tubes rather than bother with that lot!

    But the time taken is only when first fitting. Think of the time saved roadside (I've wrestled with gatorskins and GP4 seasons in the wet and cold) that having tubeless "self repairs" helps with.
  • munkster
    munkster Posts: 819
    having tubeless "self repairs" helps with.

    I'm new to tubeless and while I've not actually ridden the new wheels out (too mucky out there for nice wheels, probably illogical) I do worry about that hopefully small % of occasions where a puncture doesn't self repair. I don't want to curse myself by talking about how often I get "p word"s normally but I would hope that the regularity that a tubeless tyre ends my ride is a very small % of the total!

    Can anyone reassure me?? :-)
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,301
    munkster wrote:
    Can anyone reassure me?? :-)

    I don't know what people do to their tyres, but if your average puncture is caused by small road debris, then rest assured it will be sealed. If your average puncture is a ripped tyre in a 3 inch deep pothole, then you might find that sealant doesn't work...
    It's about keeping your eyes on the road, instead of looking how awesome your numbers are on the Garmin, really... :wink:
    left the forum March 2023
  • munkster
    munkster Posts: 819
    It's about keeping your eyes on the road, instead of looking how awesome your numbers are on the Garmin, really... :wink:

    I take it that's a general bit of advice and not aimed specifically at me?? :shock:
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,301
    obviously...
    left the forum March 2023
  • robbo2011
    robbo2011 Posts: 1,017
    Thank goodness punctures don't happen in Switzerland!
  • JSpencer1
    JSpencer1 Posts: 102
    Slightly OT but not worthy of a new thread. I've just picked up some second hand Fulcrum Racing 3 wheels, the proper 2 way ones and came fitted with Hutchison Fusion tyres.

    My problem is inflated to 100psi I'm losing 20-30psi over a 24hr period. This can't be right right? There's sealant in the tyres as I can hear it sloshing around, but both tyres are losing similar pressures. Short of taking the whole lot off cleaning up and trying again what else could I try?

    Note, everything came fitted up so can't comment on previous workmanship.
  • Nick Payne
    Nick Payne Posts: 288
    matt-h wrote:
    <snip>...
    THe Ultegra wheels are nigh on impossible to get a tube in
    Seems pretty strange. I have a pair of Dura-Ace 9000 C24 wheels, and I can get ordinary non-tubeless (Conti GP 4 Season) on without needing levers - I only need to use levers to take them off.

    If you're having problems pinching tubes, have a look at the VAR tyre levers:

    11209_var_1.jpg
  • matt-h
    matt-h Posts: 847
    Nick Payne wrote:
    matt-h wrote:
    <snip>...
    THe Ultegra wheels are nigh on impossible to get a tube in
    Seems pretty strange. I have a pair of Dura-Ace 9000 C24 wheels, and I can get ordinary non-tubeless (Conti GP 4 Season) on without needing levers - I only need to use levers to take them off.

    If you're having problems pinching tubes, have a look at the VAR tyre levers:

    11209_var_1.jpg

    Sorry, i did mean it was impossible using the 6800 wheels and the One tubeless with an inner tube.
    Those Lever look good though

    Matt
  • rafletcher
    rafletcher Posts: 1,235
    JSpencer1 wrote:
    Slightly OT but not worthy of a new thread. I've just picked up some second hand Fulcrum Racing 3 wheels, the proper 2 way ones and came fitted with Hutchison Fusion tyres.

    My problem is inflated to 100psi I'm losing 20-30psi over a 24hr period. This can't be right right? There's sealant in the tyres as I can hear it sloshing around, but both tyres are losing similar pressures. Short of taking the whole lot off cleaning up and trying again what else could I try?

    Note, everything came fitted up so can't comment on previous workmanship.

    No, it's not - though 100psi is maybe a bit high for tubeless. One of the advantages is running at lower pressures, as there is no risk of a pinch flat. I'm currently running at 80/90 front/rear.

    Still, that level of loss is too high - ask the person from whom you bought them? If as you say there is plenty of sealant, and the tyre bead is seated properly, then you shouldn't get that level of drop. Have you tried pumping up to say 120-130 and using some soapy water spray as a bubble detector? Might be badly seated valves for instance. Or maybe an issue with the taping letting air out a spoke hole.