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Ultegra 6800 front derailleur not working

alexulalexul Posts: 69
edited February 2015 in Workshop
Hello all,
Maybe somebody can help me, I've already spent hours trying to figure this thing. I've just bought a new bike with Ultegra 6800 groupset. Less than 50 miles ridden. And today during a ride, my FD lever was jammed, the mech was on the small chainring. At home I detached the cable and tested the lever. Working, the outer lever, the big one is doing 3 clicks and then stops. The small, inside lever is also clicking, 3 times is engaging the cable and then keeps clicking but not engaging cable (is it normal? should it also stop after 3 clicks? I never had STI levers). Then I checked the mech by pushing the arm by hand. The arm moves to the inside, pushing the chain on the outside and on the big chainring. So I reconnect the cable, push the longer outer lever and it clicks just once to tension the cable a bit and then it is stuck. If I tension the cable with the inline barrel I can't make it work even for 1 click. It is as if it doesn't have enough force to pull the cable and the arm of the mech. The only thing I can think of is bad cable routing. I couldn't find any video or clear pictures with these new 6800 so I had to settle with the sketches from Shimano http://si.shimano.com/php/download.php?file=pdf/dm/DM-FD0002-04-ENG.pdf.
At page 14 it shows the cable going by the left of that small pin, and then to the right of the bolt. This is what I tried to do. I posted some images maybe you can see something wrong. Or have any idea to troubleshoot. I have no skills on FDs. My 9spd Sora is still working flawlessly after 2 years and thousands of miles without any major intervention.
zvbnk3.jpg
n62n43.jpg

Posts

  • The stop screws (H&L Limit screws) look as though they are screwed right down which would stop the FD from moving. Have you tried backing these off a few turns? Good tutorial on FD problems here

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfBiXgf8JxI
    Basso Astra
    Principia Ellipse SX
    Kinesis Racelight 4S
    Kinesis Crosslight Pro Disc
  • trailflowtrailflow Posts: 1,311
    As above. The limit screw are in too much by the looks of things. i made a 6800 FD set up tutorial in the thread you can try
    viewtopic.php?f=40004&t=12976309
  • alexulalexul Posts: 69
    thanks for the replies. I tried following the guide. Where I get stuck is here:
    Clamp the cable (pull the cable fairly tight with pliers and clamp). Then shift the chain onto the 11t cog (or smallest) at the back, and shift the front onto the big ring. (if it doesnt shift up - add more tension by loosening the bolt and pulling more cable ,then re-tighten the bolt). Now when in the big ring there should now be some chain rubbing on the cage if you spin the cranks.
    It doesn't shift up. Even though the cable is really tight. In fact it is the lever who doesn't click. I can see the mech arm moving a bit as I push the lever but then the lever feels very tight and doesn't click. If it was a problem with the cable tension being too low I believe the lever would click but not move the arm enough too shift. For me it seems I don't have enough leverage to pull the arm. If I push the derraileur by hand at the same time as moving the lever I can hear it clicking and it shifts. I don't want to force the lever by pushing it too much. It also seems ok when moving it without cable.
    What is more strange is that one time I put the cable on the wrong side of the bolt, on the left instead of the right. And it started shifting. When I started to fine tune it I saw that the groove for the cable was on the right of the bolt. Moved it to the correct position and it doesn't shift.
  • You don't say whether you have adjusted the limit screws but if it works with the cable on the other side of the bolt I guess thats not what the problem is.

    Just spin the the clamp bolt round and make sure it's clamping the cable properly. There is no right or wrong side to clamp the cable
    Basso Astra
    Principia Ellipse SX
    Kinesis Racelight 4S
    Kinesis Crosslight Pro Disc
  • trailflowtrailflow Posts: 1,311
    edited February 2015
    Have you screwed the outer limit out ?

    Make sure before you attach the cable. To click the left shifter into the lowest position (keep pressing the down shift lever all the way) pull on the cable as you click down.

    Try the other the cable tab position.

    When clamping the cable. Pull it upwards so it is pressured against the bolt.

    If your frame has a cable guide running underneath the bottom bracket. Make sure that it is secure and not moving around. If its an integrated cable guide try and see at the edges if there is any unwanted friction anywhere. And also lube where the cables run under the bb. (on my fm066 frame i removed the intergrated bb guide completly as it was causing unwanted friction and replaced it with 2 pieces of small cable outer. that might be an option to try)

    Check the cable is seated inside the shifter properly and where the cable come out of the shifter. Lubing the shifter internals with spray grease/oil can also help.

    Make sure all the cable ferrules are in the frame stops properly.

    is the cable outer bend to tight ? or too short ?
  • 6wheels6wheels Posts: 411
    If after adjusting the outer limit screw and still the same situation, then - and I'm loathe to say this- has the FD dropped down so it's catching on the big ring?
  • jgsijgsi Posts: 5,027
    6wheels wrote:
    If after adjusting the outer limit screw and still the same situation, then - and I'm loathe to say this- has the FD dropped down so it's catching on the big ring?

    As above .. check the cage height now.
    With the FD it is all with those limiter screws!
    Read and digest the Park Tool page, see if anything drops into place
    http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-hel ... djustments

    You will never suss it by flappin about not knowing what is what and what does what.

    Just to keep your spirits up, FDs are about 1/5 for complexity on a bike ;-)
  • NeXXusNeXXus Posts: 854
    The angle of that cable doesn't look right at all, almost to the extreme of what it should be
    And the people bowed and prayed, to the neon god they made.
  • lpretro1lpretro1 Posts: 237
    NeXXus wrote:
    The angle of that cable doesn't look right at all, almost to the extreme of what it should be
    Yes I'd agree with that. There is a little tool for setting up 6800 fds which will indicate which way the converter needs to be set -see here (page 11):
    [url][/url] http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j& ... 5890,d.ZGU

    Getting the setting right is crucial for them to work properly
  • The cable should pass over the bolt and be clamped, not under it as you have or it pulls the mech down, not across
  • trailflowtrailflow Posts: 1,311
    The cable should pass over the bolt and be clamped, not under it as you have or it pulls the mech down, not across

    Not on the 5800/6800/9000 FD it doesnt. Read page 13 of the Shimano pdf in the OP. The arrow clearly shows where the cable should go.
  • alexulalexul Posts: 69
    Good news,
    In one last attempt I just played with the detached cable: pushing it and pulling it out of the frame. The frame has internal routing but the cable also goes through some plastic coating, I guess to prevent rattling inside the frame. After playing with it, I also asked my wife to help me, she kept the bike steady and clamped the bolt while I was pulling the cable with a pair of pliers as hard as I could. Guess what? It started shifting, with some rubbing of course but after fiddling with the stops and barrel adjuster I made it work. Went for 1 hour ride, no rubbing on any of the 22 gears(except under heavy load but that's occasionally) I have no idea of the initial cause. Maybe during the last ride, it lost some tension and got blocked somewhere, the routing made an angle which I wasn't able to straight with only one hand. In my defense, in all the videos they used only their hands to pull the cable :)

    Regarding the cable routing at the bolt, yes the angle is strange and makes no sense. But look again at page 14 of the dealer's manual. It clearly shows the angle under the bolt and to its right. There is even a NOT LIKE THIS picture where the cable is over the bolt. I also didn't imagine how it would work, because indeed, by pulling the cable down would just pull the arm to outside, not inside. So I goggled and I found similar close ups
    9j1f.jpg
    Looks like the cable is completely straight. And under the bolt. When on small ring the arm is collapsed even more to the outside.

    Wilier-Triestina-Cento1-Air-Shimano-Ultegra-6800-Complete-Bike-04.jpg
    Again, the cable is going to the outside.

    And the manual:
    293c38j.png
    From my understanding, in both cases I have to put the cable between that converter and the bolt, underneath it. Now correct me if I'm wrong, sometimes I have problems understanding schematics. I don't have that tool to check how the converter should be, I trusted the shop on this.
    Anyway, I'll leave it like this. Obviously this is not an ordinary FD. BTW, on the manual it says to adjust the cable tension while on the big ring and on the trim below the top position. In a couple of month I hope there will be some videos on this model to get a visual on how things should be. I heard that only 2015 models started to come with 6800 set and the more popular it will become, the more it resources will be on it.
    Thanks again for all the responses. Wish you the best
  • trailflowtrailflow Posts: 1,311
    on the manual it says to adjust the cable tension while on the big ring and on the trim below the top position.

    Yes thats correct. That step is really only useful if you want to use big/big. I've tried the official set up guide many times but always found that the small ring trim feels less positive to click if you do. The trick to eliminate slop at the end my tutorial cannot be done if you follow the manual because it throws the overall cable tension out of wack otherwise. The trade off is have 1 gear rub (big/big) and have a better feeling trim (on my tutorial)
    I heard that only 2015 models started to come with 6800 set and the more popular it will become, the more it resources will be on it.

    Im sure 6800 has been on sale since the end of 2013/start of 2014. In all honesty its about time that Shimano began releasing proper set up video's made by their technicians for all their products. Instead of leaving the general public to do it.
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