What has happened to Specialized?

downhill paul

For a while I have been on the look out for a new bike. something a bit lighter and with a better group set than what I have now (Allez Sport) I settled on the Tarmac Elite as I have always loved them and I also love the 105 group set.
looking through the Specialized range, £1800 for either the Tarmac or the Roubaix Elite seems to be the minimum you have to spend on a bike that doesn't have the Axis brakes and wheels. ok so the Allez range now has the new smart weld frame and a gel Toupe saddle compared to the Riva saddle on my Allez Sport, but mine has the Sora brake set instead of the Axis. I'm sure I read somewhere that Axis is just cheap crap made for and by Specialized. maybe to save and make money who knows. but can it really make that much difference to the cost of a bike to have the brake set match the rest of the group set? no doubt Specialized will be buying in bulk and getting things much cheaper than you or I. if you have a look online for a specific group set, you buy it as a whole. not with a cheaper alternative brake set. does anyone actually have a Specialized bike with Axis brakes? how do they actually compare to others from Shimano? how do you rate the Axis wheels too? my bike came with Axis wheels, needless to say they were replaced after one ride with a pair of Mavic Aksium Race wheels. the bike felt transformed and I have never looked back.

DavidJB

Specialized in overpriced shocker.

jasonbrim

It's the same for most brands though - they all have their own brand of components usually and it is always the brake calipers that are the thing they replace (chainsets as well).

I know from experience of other brands that their in-house brakes aren't as good. If it is 105 5800, then they are dual-pivot brakes, which provide better stopping power. So I would want those over in-house single-pivot brakes. You could always buy them afterwards - you can usually find brake calipers quite cheap.

downhill paul

One of the usual tricks I noticed from specialized is advertising a particular bike as having a particular groupset, but certain components such as the brake calipers, front or rear derailleur or even the rear cassette are from a different groupset, usually lesser quality.

buckmulligan

It's not that surprising really. I should imagine Specialized get their "in-house" components made up in one of their chinese factories for pennies per unit rather than the tens-of-pounds that they'd pay for a bulk order of Sora calipers. The same goes for their handlebars/stems/seatposts etc. They don't even want to shell out for sealed cartridges, so they stick that god-awful MindSet headset in most of their frames.

But in fairness to them at least they conform to a lot of the industry standards, making their bikes self-servicable and easy to convert it back to higher spec components if you wish.

On the last point, when a bike is advertised as "105 spec" or whatever, in my opinion that only strictly applies to the shifters and derailleurs. Cassettes and chains will often be a lower spec, and brake calipers and chainsets may also be propietary or otherwise different. Either way, you'd be better off upgrading the brake pads than the callipers; it might not be as glamorous as some DA calipers, but getting some Swisstop greens on there will make a much bigger difference.

cougie

They're doing the frames for Cav and Contadors teams still aren't they - so they have to make their money back somehow.

lostboysaint

cougie wrote:

They're doing the frames for Cav and Contadors teams still aren't they - so they have to make their money back somehow.

And handing out freebies to all the F1 drivers, MotoGP riders, various national Olympic teams (non-cycling) etc.

turbotommy

lostboysaint wrote:

cougie wrote:

They're doing the frames for Cav and Contadors teams still aren't they - so they have to make their money back somehow.

And handing out freebies to all the F1 drivers, MotoGP riders, various national Olympic teams (non-cycling) etc.

Yeah I've often thought this. Essentially normal people buying high end bikes pay a large mark up, which helps subsidise all the kit they dish out for promo purposes. Seems to work for em though so...

class5700

erm...the business is to use promotions to drive sales, not to sell stuff so you can do promotions!

turbotommy

class5700 wrote:

erm...the business is to use promotions to drive sales, not to sell stuff so you can do promotions!

I mean yeah. I guess what I meant is that the high mark up on top end bikes allows them to be very aggressive in their promotional efforts. Which obviously results in higher sales across their entire range

kajjal

Most of the big brands bikes are expensive for what they are with cheaper components subbed in wherever they can get away with it. Worryingly most come with very poor brakes. This year prices have fallen back a bit as previous years pricing was very high for what you got. Best to buy in the sales to get good value.

Pigtail

I looked at the Tarmac Sport, I had discounted the Elite very quickly as there doesn't seem to be a lot of difference for £300. Eventually I went for the comp. Full Ultegra and better wheels for £200 more. The kit on offer has definitely improved this year, though you may get better specced bikes at the same price from other companies.

class5700

what I don't get is the differentiation between frame quality. aside from riding the bike and using your subjective view (in my case with little experience to back it up), how are you supposed to know that one frame is better than the other? you would have to test ride a large number of bikes over a long period and neither of those things are realistic. we know we can't trust reviews, because the reviewer may not want to offend the manufacturer who also advertises in the magazine, and anyway reviews are subjective.

I mean, the components are usually ranked in order of quality and weight. so we all know that an Ultegra groupset will outperform a Sora one in both weight and operation. same applies for most of the other components.

we pay more for Spesh, Trek, Cannondale etc because they are able to promote their brands well and mark up their products as a result. however, the smaller brands are less well known, less well regarded, cost less, but often use the same or better components than their more famous competitors. they are sold as better value for money.

but the smaller brands are also saving money somewhere. is it in the frame? how would we know? we may say that a Specialized bike is worse value for money, but is the frame itself good value? is it worth more than a frame from Merida, Fuji, Jamis, Pinnacle etc?

seems like much of this is purely subjective. ultimately it all comes down to brand image. the Spesh owners buy into it, the naysayers don't, but neither can know they are right.

or am I wrong?

ddraver

You buy the bike that fits the best!

cougie

Smaller brands won't have as many overheads - less racing teams, less advertising, less cost for their bike boutique shops. They might have higher frame costs as they won't be buying as much as the big boys though.

There will always be a premium for the big brand names. Up to you if its worth it or not.

bigmat

class5700 wrote:

we may say that a Specialized bike is worse value for money, but is the frame itself good value? is it worth more than a frame from Merida, Fuji, Jamis, Pinnacle etc?
quote]

Well this made me laugh! Merida own almost half of Specialized and produce some/most/all? of their frames. There is no difference. It is all down to marketing.

downhill paul

Pigtail wrote:

I looked at the Tarmac Sport, I had discounted the Elite very quickly as there doesn't seem to be a lot of difference for £300. Eventually I went for the comp. Full Ultegra and better wheels for £200 more. The kit on offer has definitely improved this year, though you may get better specced bikes at the same price from other companies.

The difference in price between the Tarmac Elite and the Comp isn't much, £200 as you said.
the frame, forks, bars, seat post, bottom bracket, and chainset are all the same.
so how do the S5 wheels and the 105 groupset on the elite compare to the S4 wheels and the Ultegra groupset on the comp?

tangled_metal

BigMat wrote:

class5700 wrote:

we may say that a Specialized bike is worse value for money, but is the frame itself good value? is it worth more than a frame from Merida, Fuji, Jamis, Pinnacle etc?
quote]

Well this made me laugh! Merida own almost half of Specialized and produce some/most/all? of their frames. There is no difference. It is all down to marketing.

As well as a 49% share in Specialized (the last time I looked it was that) merida make for a lot of other big names. One LBS near me that sold Spesh, merida and a few other brands too once said it was 4 out of the 5 biggest brands was made by merida. If that is true then with the same argument all those brands made by Merida are the same quality, i.e. no difference. However I have to say there is a difference in my view, i have seen the welds on Merida for example and they are not as clean as Spesh welds. That is not to say they are not as strong just there is a difference. How important is looks to you? That could be one reason to go for a bigger brand. Personally I got a good deal for my Spesh a year or so ago and was happy. I doubt I will get another spesh this time but I look at the best bike I can afford that works for me irrespective of brand. So far MErida has not had a look in now that they are not sold in a shop anywhere near me.

BrandonA

DavidJB wrote:

Specialized in overpriced shocker.

That is one OPINION.

If it were FACT though they wouldn't sell so many bikes and would therefore be forced to reduce their costs.

The your is the original poster has a choose. He can either buy a bike he likes or buy something else in the price range he is willing to pay.

Pigtail

downhill paul wrote:

Pigtail wrote:

I looked at the Tarmac Sport, I had discounted the Elite very quickly as there doesn't seem to be a lot of difference for £300. Eventually I went for the comp. Full Ultegra and better wheels for £200 more. The kit on offer has definitely improved this year, though you may get better specced bikes at the same price from other companies.

The difference in price between the Tarmac Elite and the Comp isn't much, £200 as you said.
the frame, forks, bars, seat post, bottom bracket, and chainset are all the same.
so how do the S5 wheels and the 105 groupset on the elite compare to the S4 wheels and the Ultegra groupset on the comp?

I've no idea. I never really considered the Elite, as I said. I fancied the sport in orange. I intended changing the brakes and I have a set of unused zondas in my loft. I would have sold the original wheels.

Somehow I managed to convince myself that £500 more was worth it though £300 wasn't. The 4s are good enough to keep and the zondas will be best wheels for events.

I'm not particularly a specialized fan, but my Allez was great and I decided to stick with something I liked rather than spend two grand on something that might not suit me!

downhill paul

Thanks for your help :-)
I may go for the sport myself. the only differences between that and the elite are the axis brakes instead of 105's, the axis wheels instead of fulcrum S5's and a FSA gossamer crankset instead of the new Praxis Works turn Zayante crankset.
£1500 for the tarmac sport + £50 for two 105 5800 brake calipers is much more of a bargain than the £1800 for the tarmac elite. plus I already know that the 105 calipers will fit on the tarmac as other models use them.

Pigtail

Bike shops are not allowed to openly discount specialized bikes, but if buying from an lbs rather than online there may be room to do a deal. I'm sure 105 calipers won't cost a bike shop as much as they cost you. It might be worth saying 'I'll buy it if you change the brakes for me, at that price.'

Devastazione

BrandonA wrote:

DavidJB wrote:

Specialized in overpriced shocker.

That is one OPINION.

If it were FACT though they wouldn't sell so many bikes and would therefore be forced to reduce their costs.

I'm sorry but the guy is right.

Forcing to reduce costs my @SS !! Specialized is one big marketing machine Rolex style if you happen to be familiar with the watch world,take it from a 100% Specialized guy. Paid 2800 Euro for a 2012 Roubaix Expert 3 years ago and wheels were complete crap,had to spend another 750 Euro to get some decent wheels. 2800 Euro and not even a decent set of wheels ? Gimme a break FFS. Tell you what,my in your face expensive Tarmac Sworks is a better value bike.
That said is undeniable that these guys are very good a making bikes besides marketing them. Once you ride a Specialized it's difficult no to enjoy what kind of bike those are. Easy to ride,solid feel,well refined. For those bitching about specs for the price there's Canyon out there ( just bought one..a real eye opener of a bike) or being self conscious that with a Specialized unless you go Sworks you are paying a lot more than what you'll eventually get.
" Price is what you pay,value is what you get " Warren Buffet

class5700

BigMat wrote:

class5700 wrote:

we may say that a Specialized bike is worse value for money, but is the frame itself good value? is it worth more than a frame from Merida, Fuji, Jamis, Pinnacle etc?
quote]

Well this made me laugh! Merida own almost half of Specialized and produce some/most/all? of their frames. There is no difference. It is all down to marketing.

not sure what this has to do with it.

so a Merida-branded frame is the same quality as a Spesh-branded frame? a 105-equiped Merida bike is as good as a 105-equiped Spesh bike? (I'm just asking, if it is, great!)

worth mentioning that it is very common for several brands with several price-points to be made under the same roof: Toyoto/Lexus, Fender/Squire, Volkswagen/Lamborghini etc.

MountainMonster

class5700 wrote:

BigMat wrote:

class5700 wrote:

we may say that a Specialized bike is worse value for money, but is the frame itself good value? is it worth more than a frame from Merida, Fuji, Jamis, Pinnacle etc?
quote]

Well this made me laugh! Merida own almost half of Specialized and produce some/most/all? of their frames. There is no difference. It is all down to marketing.

not sure what this has to do with it.

so a Merida-branded frame is the same quality as a Spesh-branded frame? a 105-equiped Merida bike is as good as a 105-equiped Spesh bike? (I'm just asking, if it is, great!)

worth mentioning that it is very common for several brands with several price-points to be made under the same roof: Toyoto/Lexus, Fender/Squire, Volkswagen/Lamborghini etc.

Most of the companies listed own each other. For example, Lexus is the luxury branding of Toyota's vehicles, and VAG group owns Lamborghini and a few other supercars. They are made under the same roof because they are the same company, just different brand for different markets.

class5700

MountainMonster wrote:

class5700 wrote:

BigMat wrote:

class5700 wrote:

we may say that a Specialized bike is worse value for money, but is the frame itself good value? is it worth more than a frame from Merida, Fuji, Jamis, Pinnacle etc?
quote]

Well this made me laugh! Merida own almost half of Specialized and produce some/most/all? of their frames. There is no difference. It is all down to marketing.

not sure what this has to do with it.

so a Merida-branded frame is the same quality as a Spesh-branded frame? a 105-equiped Merida bike is as good as a 105-equiped Spesh bike? (I'm just asking, if it is, great!)

worth mentioning that it is very common for several brands with several price-points to be made under the same roof: Toyoto/Lexus, Fender/Squire, Volkswagen/Lamborghini etc.

Most of the companies listed own each other. For example, Lexus is the luxury branding of Toyota's vehicles, and VAG group owns Lamborghini and a few other supercars. They are made under the same roof because they are the same company, just different brand for different markets.

yes, I know. that's exactly what I said.

MountainMonster

class5700 wrote:

MountainMonster wrote:

class5700 wrote:

BigMat wrote:

class5700 wrote:

we may say that a Specialized bike is worse value for money, but is the frame itself good value? is it worth more than a frame from Merida, Fuji, Jamis, Pinnacle etc?
quote]

Well this made me laugh! Merida own almost half of Specialized and produce some/most/all? of their frames. There is no difference. It is all down to marketing.

not sure what this has to do with it.

so a Merida-branded frame is the same quality as a Spesh-branded frame? a 105-equiped Merida bike is as good as a 105-equiped Spesh bike? (I'm just asking, if it is, great!)

worth mentioning that it is very common for several brands with several price-points to be made under the same roof: Toyoto/Lexus, Fender/Squire, Volkswagen/Lamborghini etc.

Most of the companies listed own each other. For example, Lexus is the luxury branding of Toyota's vehicles, and VAG group owns Lamborghini and a few other supercars. They are made under the same roof because they are the same company, just different brand for different markets.

yes, I know. that's exactly what I said.

Whoops, quick reading on the phone meant I misread it. Apologies!

DavidJB

BrandonA wrote:

DavidJB wrote:

Specialized in overpriced shocker.

That is one OPINION.

If it were FACT though they wouldn't sell so many bikes and would therefore be forced to reduce their costs.

The your is the original poster has a choose. He can either buy a bike he likes or buy something else in the price range he is willing to pay.

Take it you own a specialized

Just because they have the best marketing team doesn't mean they make the best bikes. Quite often the inferior product is the biggest seller due to marketing.

mamba80

I used to care if my local LBS went to the wall but now I don't, they ve been ripping off the punter for far too long now.

Just buy a canyon/rose etc get a full group set, great wheels and a free biking holiday to Mallorca with the savings.
Spesh Tarmac pro race me Ultegra 4k versus Canyon cf slx me ultegra 2.6k, just plan ahead and order a few weeks before you need your bike, learn how to adjust gears/brakes and your sorted.
both companies offer warrantees far better than spesh trek etc.

mudsucker

I must say bikes in general have rocketed in price over that last few years, not just Specialized.
I have a Specialized Stumpjumper FSR which is now about 5 years old. The spec is exactly the same but the price has increased by £800!!!

Jahmoo

I have had quite a weird experience with my Specialized bike purchase. Had a,trial,with a Roubiax back in June and fell for it, line the lot, comfy ride and Carbon and Disc. Roubaix because of lower back issue and cycling on a hybrid for many years earlier.

Was offered a couple of options to buy, even a cut price for the Demo, well it was a chunk off RRP and LBS still offered me all the whistles, service, lifetime warranty on frame. After tooin and froin with Sora Groupset issues, September was offered New Bike, 2015 Roubaix Sport in Green, lovely bike, again loved it, but Headset Bearings went within the 6weeks, so lucky I got this all done under warranty, but what next.

I too upgraded the Axis Brakes to 105's straight away and will be looking at wheels very soon as I promised myself to run the hell out of them in the winter,,as that's all they are good for.

Have been left feeling I paid a lot for a bike that has not been plain sailing since the start, for me £1500 on any ride is big spend, one I have not done for many years, so have felt I may have chosen the wrong manufacturer, only did because I needed to try the bike properly before I buy. So was fit first looks And price secon, third.